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#1 Aug 20 2008 at 4:45 AM Rating: Decent
Nexa
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Do any of you have kids that go to schools that still use corporal punishment? I guess I didn't realize it was still so widespread in schools these days:

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Groups target corporal punishment in schools
The 3-year-old came home in tears from his public pre-kindergarten program, unable to adequately describe what had happened to him or how he had sustained bruises that stretched around his hips to his stomach.

His mother figured out he had been paddled at the program for taking off his shoes during class and playing with an air conditioner. When she went to school officials about the matter, she found that the paddling was allowed under school policy. Ultimately, she wound up withdrawing her son from the rural Texas school.

The boy's case was profiled in a report issued Wednesday by Human Rights Watch and the American Civil Liberties Union. He was among hundreds of thousands of children receiving corporal punishment in school, the groups said, a topic debated as hotly as corporal punishment at home. Last school year, more than 200,000 children were spanked or paddled at school, according to the organizations' joint report.

"Every public school needs effective methods of discipline, but beating kids teaches violence, and it doesn't stop bad behavior," wrote Alice Farmer, the author of the report. "Corporal punishment discourages learning, fails to deter future misbehavior and at times even provokes it."

Corporal punishment in schools remains legal in 21 U.S. states and is used frequently in 13: Missouri, Kentucky, Texas, Oklahoma, Arkansas, Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Georgia, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tennessee and Florida, according to data received from the Office for Civil Rights at the U.S. Department of Education and cited in the report.

The highest percentage of students receiving corporal punishment was in Mississippi, with 7.5 percent of students. The highest number was in Texas, with 48,197 students.


I guess I didn't realize it since I'm in the Northeast and those that are at least listed as using it frequently are all in the south. I'd move rather than sending Hannah to a school that used corporal punishment.

Nexa
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#2 Aug 20 2008 at 4:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Oh, and as a tie in to our other lovely thread (from the same article):

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The punishment is disproportionately applied to African-American students, according to the organizations. During the 2006-07 school year, for instance, black students made up 17.1 percent of the nationwide student population but 35.6 percent of those paddled at schools.

African-American girls were paddled at twice the rate of their white counterparts in the 13 states using corporal punishment most frequently. And although boys are punished more often than girls, the report found that African-American students in general are 1.4 times more likely to receive corporal punishment


I'm sure it's just cause black kids are badderer than white kids.

Nexa
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#3 Aug 20 2008 at 5:01 AM Rating: Good
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Gotta be a good little Baptist and beat them kids! <3 the Bible Belt.

I don't think corporal punishment is used much around here to be honest. I know both my kids surely would have deserved it (ha!), but neither of them ever got paddled. It may be legal here, but I don't think the schools have to enforce it.
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#4 Aug 20 2008 at 5:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nexa wrote:
Oh, and as a tie in to our other lovely thread (from the same article):

Quote:
The punishment is disproportionately applied to African-American students, according to the organizations. During the 2006-07 school year, for instance, black students made up 17.1 percent of the nationwide student population but 35.6 percent of those paddled at schools.

African-American girls were paddled at twice the rate of their white counterparts in the 13 states using corporal punishment most frequently. And although boys are punished more often than girls, the report found that African-American students in general are 1.4 times more likely to receive corporal punishment


I'm sure it's just cause black kids are badderer than white kids.

Nexa


I'm sure it has something to do with black populations being much higher in regions were corporal punishment is allowed. I think here in Western Michigan, there were maybe 2 black students in my entire high school. Much different than when I went to school outside Charleston, South Carolina.

Also, when I was in school in South Carolina, the school needed parental permission to use corporal punishment. My parents did not sign the waiver. That's another variable.

Edited, Aug 21st 2008 7:10pm by TirithRR
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#5 Aug 20 2008 at 6:36 AM Rating: Good
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Wow. Up here teachers are really struggling to find ways to deal with trouble makers as so many discipline tools aren't allowed. You even single a kid out and you start to hear the absurd crys of physcological scarring and such. As for physically touching a kid? good luck with that.
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#6 Aug 20 2008 at 6:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Many private/parochial schools still use it as a disciplinistic last resort. It can be effective with strong willed children, but isn't terribly useful in a general sense from what I've seen and read. Teachers aren't the parents, so the punishment isn't necessarily connected psychologically/emotionally with love and caring, just order and rules.

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#7 Aug 20 2008 at 6:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't care what the school allows for punishment, a three year old with extensive bruising???!!?

I'd be charging the teacher with child abuse, and doing my utmost to discredit and/or sue a school that condones it.
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#8 Aug 20 2008 at 7:16 AM Rating: Good
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Meh, can you knee jerk react any more, Elinda? Maybe the kid bruises easily. Maybe there's more to this story than what's being reported. Maybe the bruises were there from a previous incident while playing outside during recess. Indignant gasps of shock and dismay by those opposed to corporal punishment coupled with demands for legal action against the school teacher just add to the hysteria of the story.

Relaaaaaaax. It's not your kid, ok?

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#9 Aug 20 2008 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
Meh, can you knee jerk react any more, Elinda?
No, that's Ambrya's schitck.

What's being reported is
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bruises that stretched around his hips to his stomach
...on a three year old child.

There are very little to no extenuating circumstances that justify this.
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#10 Aug 20 2008 at 7:32 AM Rating: Good
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Yeah, well, belts tend to whip around whatever they are being struck against. ;)

I'd like to direct your attention to the sentence, "Every public school needs effective methods of discipline, but beating kids teaches violence, and it doesn't stop bad behavior," wrote Alice Farmer, the author of the report. "Corporal punishment discourages learning, fails to deter future misbehavior and at times even provokes it."

Now there's an inflammatory and unprovable assertion, if I've ever heard one.

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#11 Aug 20 2008 at 7:38 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
Yeah, well, belts tend to whip around whatever they are being struck against. ;)

I'd like to direct your attention to the sentence, "Every public school needs effective methods of discipline, but beating kids teaches violence, and it doesn't stop bad behavior," wrote Alice Farmer, the author of the report. "Corporal punishment discourages learning, fails to deter future misbehavior and at times even provokes it."

Now there's an inflammatory and unprovable assertion, if I've ever heard one.

Totem
How is it inflammatory and why can it not be proven?

You feeling a guilty about smackin' your kid around Totes?
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#12 Aug 20 2008 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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By-the-by, Nexa, I'd like to point out that if your Hannah doesn't have behavioral problems or issues, then corporal punishment at the school she attends is a non-issue. On the other hand, if she acts out and misbehaves, then perhaps there are things going on at home to which she is reacting and to which you the parent need to open your eyes.

This is not to say this particular kid has any such issues, but I've seen plenty of parents whose first reaction when hearing about their children's misbahavior is, "What?!? My little darling??? Never!!!"

Totem
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#13 Aug 20 2008 at 7:38 AM Rating: Good
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In NC it's still around, but not in the counties surrounding us, and there is a movement to get rid of it entirely. It was something I never even thought about when moving down here, having come from the north east. I thought it was erradicated a long time ago nationwide.
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#14 Aug 20 2008 at 7:40 AM Rating: Default
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It teaches violence? It doesn't stop bad behavior? It discourages learning? Fails to deter future misbehavior?

What universe does this Alice Farmer live in? She's gotta be a Dr. Spock baby.

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#15 Aug 20 2008 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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Nope, no guilt here, E. I absolutely spanked my kid, and yes, later on in life they actually did thank me for it. Corporal punishment may not be for every one, nor for every situation, but to dismiss it is sheer foolishness. It should be just one more tool in a parent's-- and school's --bag of tricks.

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#16 Aug 20 2008 at 7:44 AM Rating: Excellent
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I was never spanked in school, but I'd opt out of a spanking school for any kids in my care anyway.

I'm a big wuss, I admit it. I found watching others being spanked just awful. I used to cry, haha.

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#17 Aug 20 2008 at 7:47 AM Rating: Decent
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Mistress DSD wrote:
In NC it's still around, but not in the counties surrounding us, and there is a movement to get rid of it entirely. It was something I never even thought about when moving down here, having come from the north east. I thought it was erradicated a long time ago nationwide.


Most public schools that still practice it are required to get permission from a guardian, so it's not like they are going around beating on kids against their parents wishes. (I'd like to say all public schools require it, but I can't since I don't know that for sure). And as a parent, people should know what their child's student handbook and school policy is. By sending your child to a school, you're agreeing that you and they will follow the school's rules. You should know what they are.

I'm sure there are private schools that still do the ruler smack and all that nonsense from the good old days of Sunday schooling. A lot of pre-kindergarten schools are done through churches.
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#18 Aug 20 2008 at 7:50 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
By-the-by, Nexa, I'd like to point out that if your Hannah doesn't have behavioral problems or issues, then corporal punishment at the school she attends is a non-issue. On the other hand, if she acts out and misbehaves, then perhaps there are things going on at home to which she is reacting and to which you the parent need to open your eyes.

This is not to say this particular kid has any such issues, but I've seen plenty of parents whose first reaction when hearing about their children's misbahavior is, "What?!? My little darling??? Never!!!"

Totem


If there are behavior problems or issues at school as a result of "things going on at home to which she is reacting" than some teacher smacking her around at school doesn't seem to be the best course of action. My kid's awesome, but she'll get in trouble just like I did. I turned out just fine without being hit as a child.

However, once again, I don't want to get into a spanking at home debate. I was just amazed that it was still permitted (even if not practiced) in so many states and interested in hearing if anyone here had first-hand (har har) experience with it in regard to their own children attending a corporal punishment practicing public school. Sometimes the South really is a distant other world to me.

Nexa
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#19 Aug 20 2008 at 7:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Mistress DSD wrote:
In NC it's still around, but not in the counties surrounding us, and there is a movement to get rid of it entirely. It was something I never even thought about when moving down here, having come from the north east. I thought it was erradicated a long time ago nationwide.


See, that's the same mentality I had...I wasn't aware that it was permitted in public schools anywhere in the country.

Nexa
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#20 Aug 20 2008 at 8:17 AM Rating: Excellent
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Corporal punishment was banned at the schools in the county I grew up in. However, the best school in town had "old-fashioned" detention. Whereas detention at most middle schools and high schools meant having to stay in a room with other detainees and do your homework, at my high school it meant getting handed a mop and bucket.

Yep, old fashioned detention meant helping the janitors keep the school clean.

Our parents had to sign a waiver giving permission for this type of punishment, and if they chose not to sign it, we didn't get to go. They can get away with that kind of stuff when there's a huge waiting list of parents who have no problem with their kids getting extra chores.

About the only thing we didn't end up doing was dealing with floor wax, thankfully. But we were all champion window washers, and by god those chalkboards were clean.

Edited, Aug 20th 2008 12:14pm by catwho
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#21 Aug 20 2008 at 8:23 AM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:
interested in hearing if anyone here had first-hand (har har) experience with it in regard to their own children attending a corporal punishment practicing public school. Sometimes the South really is a distant other world to me.

Nexa


You may not find anyone that's had any experience with it recently. I've not heard of anyone's child being spanked at school since I was in elementary school. Almost all the schools that still allow this have permission slips (as someone stated) and I'd be willing to bet that most parents won't allow spanking at school. The amount of parents that do allow it is probably small, and I don't guess I know any.

I'd also be willing to bet that the people who *do* allow this live where there's no internet. Or TV. Phones. Running water. (yes, those places still exist here. I drove through such a place Saturday.)
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#22 Aug 20 2008 at 8:37 AM Rating: Decent
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catwho, pet mage of Jabober wrote:
Corporal punishment was banned at the schools in the county I grew up in. However, the best school in town had "old-fashioned" detention. Whereas detention at most middle schools and high schools meant having to stay in a room with other detainees and do your homework, at my high school it meant getting handed a mop and bucket.

Yep, old fashioned detention meant helping the janitors keep the school clean.

Our parents had to sign a waiver giving permission for this type of punishment, and if they chose not to sign it, we didn't get to go. They can get away with that kind of stuff when there's a huge waiting list of parents who have no problem with their kids getting extra chores.

About the only thing we didn't end up doing was dealing with floor wax, thankfully. But we were all champion window washers, and by god those chalkboards were clean.

Edited, Aug 20th 2008 12:14pm by catwho


See, in my high school we didn't really have janitors. They had the special ed students do all the janitorial work.

It's like the mentally retarded were the schools personal, free, cleaning service. That's all they did all day. Clean windows, mop floors, sweep, put tp in the restrooms, empty trash.

It felt kind of wrong, when we were kids. But now, looking at all these award winning mentally challenged work shops (One around Traverse City, MI just got an award or something) they are nothing more rent-a-janitor companies. I guess they were being prepared for what they would be doing the rest of their life.
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#24 Aug 20 2008 at 9:02 AM Rating: Good
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knoxsouthy wrote:
Spare the rod spoil the child.


I guess I like being a spoiled child.

Nexa
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#26 Aug 20 2008 at 9:07 AM Rating: Good
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I could get behind making kids do janitorial services for punishmnet-- especially if it entailed doing it over and over until it satisfied the regular staff. What? You're finished? Lemme inspect your work. Huh, looks like you missed a bunch over here. You'd best make it shine, because there's no going home until it's done right, kid. Tough luck, thems the breaks and all that. Best not get into trouble next time.

Totem
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