Who didn't see this coming? :: Free Realms

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#77 Jul 18 2008 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent

gbaji

Encyclopedia

35,568 posts

Jophiel wrote:

gbaji wrote:

Stating that we should, or that he would?

He wants to appoint Justices to overturn Roe v Wade and feels it's the duty of the federal government to lend assistance to private organizations attempting to outlaw it at the state level.

McCain's website wrote:

John McCain believes Roe v. Wade is a flawed decision that must be overturned, and as president he will nominate judges who understand that courts should not be in the business of legislating from the bench.

Constitutional balance would be restored by the reversal of Roe v. Wade, returning the abortion question to the individual states. The difficult issue of abortion should not be decided by judicial fiat.

However, the reversal of Roe v. Wade represents only one step in the long path toward ending abortion. Once the question is returned to the states, the fight for life will be one of courage and compassion - the courage of a pregnant mother to bring her child into the world and the compassion of civil society to meet her needs and those of her newborn baby. The pro-life movement has done tremendous work in building and reinforcing the infrastructure of civil society by strengthening faith-based, community, and neighborhood organizations that provide critical services to pregnant mothers in need. This work must continue and government must find new ways to empower and strengthen these armies of compassion. These important groups can help build the consensus necessary to end abortion at the state level.

I see nothing in there that states that he would "outlaw abortion".

You do see that removing Roe v Wade so that the power to choose abortion laws rests back in the States isn't identical to outlawing abortion, right? States in which the people want abortion will have it. Those in which they don't may outlaw it. It's just a bit of a stretch to say that allowing people to make their own choice in terms of their state laws is the same as mandating those laws.

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#78 Jul 18 2008 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent

Samira

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Will swallow your soul

29,360 posts

It's pretty disingenuous to read "ending abortion" as anything other than "outlawing abortion".

He didn't say "ending the need for abortion".

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#79 Jul 18 2008 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good

__DEL__1695601009560

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18,463 posts

The tricky thing is that, if definition of the moment of fertilization of the ovum is at the heart of the regulations, there's no reliable test that can pinpoint it with any degree of accuracy.

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#80 Jul 18 2008 at 2:03 PM Rating: Decent

gbaji

Encyclopedia

35,568 posts

Samira wrote:

It's pretty disingenuous to read "ending abortion" as anything other than "outlawing abortion".

Note my earlier question of '"we should", or "he would"?'.

There's a world of difference between a politician taking some action to "outlaw abortion" and removing an obstacle that allows others to do so if they choose and can get a majority in their state/city to agree with them.

You know. That pesky freedom thing. Allowing others to make a choice versus making it for them. Wanting to "end abortion" is one thing. How you go about it is what's really significant though. And in a democracy, letting the people vote on something, while it may result in something you don't agree with personally, is at least "fair". Getting some judges to make the law what they want isn't.

Now. If you can show me where McCain states that he'd appoint judge who'd rule that an embryo has a full right to life and therefore abortion is unconstitutional, you might have a point (and just puts the issue in a balance in terms of how the Libs have pursued their position). But that's not what he's doing...

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#81 Jul 18 2008 at 2:30 PM Rating: Excellent

Samira

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Will swallow your soul

29,360 posts

He has gone on record as advocating an outright ban on abortions except in the case of rape, incest or endangerment to the life of the mother. However he later admitted that there would be no clear way to prove or disprove rape.

"Meet the Press", January 31, 2000.

He has also gone on record as saying that he would look for and nominate Supreme Court Justices that shared his moral outlook, and that was in the context of abortion rights.

Associated Press, June 14, 1999.

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#82 Jul 18 2008 at 2:34 PM Rating: Excellent

Danalog

Code Monkey

7,476 posts

BrownDuck the Wise wrote:

Debalic wrote:

For several weeks it's nothing more than a gelatinous mass of cells.

There's always womb for jello.

Ok you can hit me now.

This would be my first brownduck rate up ever!

Don't get used to it.

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#83 Jul 18 2008 at 6:31 PM Rating: Decent

gbaji

Encyclopedia

35,568 posts

Samira wrote:

He has gone on record as advocating an outright ban on abortions except in the case of rape, incest or endangerment to the life of the mother. However he later admitted that there would be no clear way to prove or disprove rape.

"Meet the Press", January 31, 2000.

You mean this exchange?

Quote:

Q: If Roe v. Wade was overturned during a McCain presidency, and individual states chose to ban abortion, would you be concerned that, as you said, X number of women in America would undergo illegal and dangerous operations?

A: No, I would hope that X women in America would bring those children into life in this world, and that I could do whatever I could to assist them. Again, that conversation from 1999, so often quoted, was in the context of my concerns about changing the culture in America to understand the importance of the rights of the unborn.

At no point does he "advocate an outright ban" in this interview.

I've said this over and over. Opposing a judicial ruling that prohibits states from banning abortion is not the same as banning abortion yourself. McCain would give the states the power to make that choice.

You know. The whole idea of people voting to decide what their own laws should be? Crazy concept, I know. We should just have a group of 9 people decide what the laws would be. That's so much better, right?

Quote:

He has also gone on record as saying that he would look for and nominate Supreme Court Justices that shared his moral outlook, and that was in the context of abortion rights.

Associated Press, June 14, 1999.

He said "values", but close enough. Well, actually that statement came through a spokesman, so he didn't say either thing. Um... This also has nothing to do with banning abortion either. Ruling that states can pass their own abortion laws is *not* the same as banning abortion. Same deal here. You seem to think that giving people the freedom of choice shouldn't be allowed unless they're limited to only making choices you agree with. Or at least that's how your position appears to me.

Freedom means people are allowed to do things that you don't agree with a lot of the time. That's the greatest litmus test of a free nation. And in the context of this issue, it means that some folks who are pro-choice but live in a state that's predominantly pro-life might have to accept laws they don't agree with. And pro-life folks, living in a state that's predominantly pro-choice will have to as well. Crazy, I know...

I don't agree with the anti-smoking laws in my state. But guess what? I don't try to make passing them unconstitutional as my means of defeating positions that the majority hold. I'll debate the pros and cons when the subject comes up, but that's part of living in a free democracy. Sometimes the majority doesn't agree with you. Liberals really could stand to learn this lesson IMO.

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