Flip-floppin' Hussein :: Free Realms

#80 Jul 14 2008 at 5:37 PM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

gbaji wrote:

Yup. More of the same. It's flip-flop bait Joph.

Quote:

Pay close attention to the phrase "Ending the War". He uses it (or a variation) 4 different times in that Op-Ed. Note, that this sounds enough like "winning the war" that it may satisfy folks who think that's important, but also reads like "leaving now" enough to satisfy the folks who just want us to leave, no matter what.

Again:

He says exactly what he's planning to do. If you want to read "Start withdrawing combat brigades and be out in 16 months" as winning or losing, that's up to you. Regardless of your interpretation, he's ending it.

Personally, as I've said before, the "war" was won in 2003. The Iraqi government was toppled and the army defeated. I can't think of other wars which lasted an additional five years after the other side's government fell and their army was gone. Were we still calling it a "war" five years into the Reconstruction? Was it still a "war" in Germany in 1950?

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#81 Jul 15 2008 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent

Sage

16,160 posts

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25696726/

Yay for us! While I find it deplorable that it would take race relations to elect McCain, whatever it takes to keep a man who would be a horrrrrrible president is fine with me.

Go go white suspicions of smooth talking balck men!

Totem

#82 Jul 15 2008 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

Totem wrote:

While I find it deplorable that it would take race relations to elect McCain...

Ya know, that same poll puts Obama ahead by six points. Smiley: laugh

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#83 Jul 15 2008 at 8:58 PM Rating: Decent

Sage

16,160 posts

I'll take those 6 points, no worries. By November white nervousness will coalesce into voting for the safe option: McCain. Even though there will be a very large black turnout, it won't be enough to overcome whites voting their pocketbooks and place in society. RACK inertia.

Totem

#84 Jul 15 2008 at 9:22 PM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

I wonder about those favorability ratings. They seem to go against the essentially tied favorability ratings Obama & McCain share according to most other polls. According to RCP, here's Obama's ratings:

 
Poll	                Date	        Sample	Fav.    Unfav. 	Spread 
RCP Average	        06/15 - 07/14	--	55.7	32.9	Fav/Unfav +22.8 
CBS News/NY Times	07/07 - 07/14	1462 RV	39	31	Fav/Unfav +8.0 
Quinnipiac	        07/08 - 07/13	1725 LV	55	29	Fav/Unfav +26.0 
Rasmussen	        07/12 - 07/14	3000 LV	55	43	Fav/Unfav +12.0 
Newsweek	        07/09 - 07/10	1037 RV	56	32	Fav/Unfav +24.0 
CNN	                06/26 - 06/29	906 RV	63	32	Fav/Unfav +31.0 
FOX News	        06/17 - 06/18	900 RV	58	32	Fav/Unfav +26.0 
USA Today/Gallup	06/15 - 06/19	1625 A	64	31	Fav/Unfav +33.0

...and McCain...

 
Poll	                Date	        Sample	Fav.    Unfav. 	Spread 
RCP Average	        06/15 - 07/14	--	52.4	34.6	Fav/Unfav +17.8 
CBS News/NY Times	07/07 - 07/14	1462 RV	31	32	Fav/Unfav -1.0 
Quinnipiac	        07/08 - 07/13	1725 LV	50	31	Fav/Unfav +19.0 
Rasmussen	        07/12 - 07/14	3000 LV	55	43	Fav/Unfav +12.0 
Newsweek	        07/09 - 07/10	1037 RV	55	32	Fav/Unfav +23.0 
CNN	                06/26 - 06/29	906 RV	59	37	Fav/Unfav +22.0 
FOX News	        06/17 - 06/18	900 RV	58	32	Fav/Unfav +26.0 
USA Today/Gallup	06/15 - 06/19	1625 A	59	35	Fav/Unfav +24.0

For whatever reason, the CBS/NYT poll sells both candidates very short on the favorability front.

____________________________

Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#85 Jul 16 2008 at 1:26 AM Rating: Excellent

RedPhoenixxx

My politics blog and stuff - Refractory

Sage

7,735 posts

You know, if you guys don't want him as US President, we'll take him as EU President. Here's the result of a Telegraph poll, which by the way is quite right-wing:

Britain: 49% would vote for Obama, against 14% for McCain
France: 65/8 for Obama
Germany: 67/6 for Obama
Italy: 70/15 for Obama

So come on, do a good deed, and feed a politician to those who don't have any decent ones.

Edit to add: Link to poll

Edited, Jul 16th 2008 9:26am by RedPhoenixxx

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#86 Jul 16 2008 at 6:14 AM Rating: Excellent

__DEL__1680481127345

Sage

21,262 posts

Someone pointed out that polls are going to be skewed two to three percentage points against Obama simply by dint of the fact that:

1. Obama's core demographics are heavy cell phone users, many without any form of land line at all these days
2. Political surveys are not allowed to call cell phones.

Whether all those cell phone users are actually registered to vote and will turn out in November is another question, but I did my part and took an unregistered friend to the polling station yesterday when I went to cast my vote in the local primaries, and she's now all set for November.

#87 Jul 16 2008 at 6:51 AM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

Gallup samples cell phones so I'm not sure it's actually illegal.

Gallup Daily Tracker wrote:

Interviews are conducted with respondents on land-line telephones (for respondents with a land-line telephone) and cellular phones (for respondents who are cell-phone only).

I don't know if Rasmussen does though.

____________________________

Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#88 Jul 16 2008 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent

Sage

16,160 posts

Red, you are welcome to him as far as I'm concerned. He does have a whiff of Euro-snob about him.

Totem

#89 Jul 16 2008 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good

Omegavegeta

Sage

8,236 posts

Don't worry Totem, after 8 years of fixing our economy, getting us out of Iraq, winning in Afghanistan, and mending our reputation around the world...

We'll get sick of him, elect a pubbie, and he'll spend the next 8 years mucking things up again.

These things come in cycles.

____________________________

"The Rich are there to take all of the money & pay none of the taxes, the middle class is there to do all the work and pay all the taxes, and the poor are there to scare the crap out of the middle class." -George Carlin

#90 Jul 17 2008 at 1:37 PM Rating: Default

gbaji

Encyclopedia

35,568 posts

Jophiel wrote:

He says exactly what he's planning to do. If you want to read "Start withdrawing combat brigades and be out in 16 months" as winning or losing, that's up to you. Regardless of your interpretation, he's ending it.

Excuse me? Where does he say "and be out in 16 months"? He said he'd start withdrawing them, depending on conditions on the ground, and what the commanders there think. In other words, the whole "16 months" bit is just fluff. Worked on you though...

Quote:

Personally, as I've said before, the "war" was won in 2003. The Iraqi government was toppled and the army defeated. I can't think of other wars which lasted an additional five years after the other side's government fell and their army was gone. Were we still calling it a "war" five years into the Reconstruction? Was it still a "war" in Germany in 1950?

Talk to your own side on this one Joph. Didn't we just talk about the "mission accomplished" aspect of this? Which is it?

I guess maybe you don't see Obama's flip flops because you're just so darn used to them from your own side there Joph. You don't even notice them anymore...

Edited, Jul 17th 2008 2:36pm by gbaji

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King Nobby wrote:

More words please

#91 Jul 17 2008 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent

Samira

Will swallow your soul

29,360 posts

Totem wrote:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/25696726/

Yay for us! While I find it deplorable that it would take race relations to elect McCain, whatever it takes to keep a man who would be a horrrrrrible president is fine with me.

Go go white suspicions of smooth talking balck men!

Totem

Oh, so it's fine for whites to make an issue of race as long as blacks don't?

____________________________

In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#92 Jul 17 2008 at 2:24 PM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

gbaji wrote:

Excuse me? Where does he say "and be out in 16 months"?

We can safely redeploy our combat brigades at a pace that would remove them in 16 months.

gbaji wrote:

Talk to your own side on this one Joph. Didn't we just talk about the "mission accomplished" aspect of this? Which is it?

Which is what? Honestly, I have no clue what point you're trying to make here.

That either side persists in calling Iraq a "war" right now is pretty stupid in my estimation. I understand that that's become the standard term for it but it doesn't fight the same ideal we've given to any previous conflict. The idea of "winning the war" is absurd given that, by the metrics of any previous battle in our nation's history, the war was long since won.

Back in the 1970's, the common wisdom was "Only Nixon could go to China". Because Nixon was so anticommunist, he could speak to the Chinese and even deal with them without be labeled a communist sympathizer or soft on China. In the same terms, I'm really not worried when Obama says he'd talk to commanders, etc to facilitate an intelligent withdrawal. Obama has been against the war long enough that I don't need to see "I'd talk to commanders about the situation on the ground" as "OMG HE'S FLIP-FLOPPING!!" and doubt his sincere desire to see the 'war' close and combat troops removed. I mean, really, you act as if he should be saying "I'd tell everyone in the military to STFU and make everyone leave this second!" or else his desire to end this thing isn't credible.

Maybe you're that simple-minded -- I don't know. I'm not, though.

____________________________

Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#93 Jul 18 2008 at 1:17 AM Rating: Good

RedPhoenixxx

My politics blog and stuff - Refractory

Sage

7,735 posts

Jophiel wrote:

Maybe you're that simple-minded -- I don't know.

Don't be so modest, Joph, you know.

You know.

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#94 Jul 18 2008 at 2:39 AM Rating: Decent

Smasharoo

Lunatic

30,086 posts

Talk to your own side on this one Joph.

Speaking as a member of the "side" I can say with confidence that there aren't any anti-war voters who aren't going to show up to vote for O barring him raping an Iraqi child on live TV during his trip. What dull eyed idiots who buy into the whole "if someone changes their mind after learning more about something *ever* they can't be trusted" ********* I'll have to rely on your expert analysis.

I'm sure they'll be happy to vote for McCain, who isn't sure what he believes on a daily basis.

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#95 Jul 18 2008 at 7:10 PM Rating: Good

Sage

16,160 posts

"Oh, so it's fine for whites to make an issue of race as long as blacks don't?" --Sammy

Nope. But there's one thing I've learned this campaign season: Race is just a cudgel used by the lesser figures in the political parties to beat the opposition with. In this day and age there are no real racial issues as far as I can tell-- at least none that matter. Even frontrunner Obama wants to put race behind us. If the black dude in this election wants to bury race as a burning national issue, who am I-- or you --to say otherwise?

Apparently with his nomination the slate has been wiped clean. Right, Smash?

Totem