I frequently listen to NPR, but a series they had recently stopped me dead in tracks. It's a two parter, the first one here and the second here for those to care to read/listen to it. For those who don't, here's the short(er) version:
1. First story: Bradley and Jonah, both born male, played and identified themselves exclusively with female gendered pursuits and identities. In both cases, parents did not initially see harm in the behavior, but eventually decided to involve a therapist once their children reached school age. Both therapists diagnosed Gender Identity Disorder. Bradley's parents took him to Dr. Ken Zucker, a therapist who believes that no child under 11-12 can make a true decision regarding their gender identity and that it is, essentially, a question of the environment they are placed in and the choices they are given. He recommends removing all female gendered toys and influences and clearly and firmly telling the child that certain toys and behaviors are not to be accepted. Jonah's parents went with Dr. Diane Ehrensaft, who considers that, if outside of the transposed gender the child is essentially happy, there is no harm in allowing them to identify and live out their gender of choice, and that it might even benefit their long-term mental health.
2. Second story: This one deals with hormone treatment for children with gender identity disorder. Basically the kids are given hormones to delay puberty, which have no significant side effects but basically act as a way to buy time while they decide if they really want to commit to their gender of choice. If they do, they are then given the chosen gender's hormones. In this way, they can avoid developing body hair/breasts/Adam's apple/large hands/hips or other traits that make it harder to live as their chosen gender. Although the hormones that delay puberty leave no lasting effects, the ones they take to change their gender into the opposite does render them infertile.
I was discussing this with Joph today over brunch and it occurred to me that it would be a heartwrenching choice for a parent to make either way, but it was crystal-clear to me what I would do and why. What would you do?
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I would ask where you're registered for your baby shower.
Right now I can't imagine having to deal with gender disorder. Sexuality is a bit easier to deal with, to me. Since I have a baby boy I will treat him as a typical boy, but if things tend to go the other way then I'll be fully supportive. I don't know what I'd do if he wants to turn his winkie inside out and cut out his Adams apple.
Right now I can't imagine having to deal with gender disorder. Sexuality is a bit easier to deal with, to me. Since I have a baby boy I will treat him as a typical boy, but if things tend to go the other way then I'll be fully supportive. I don't know what I'd do if he wants to turn his winkie inside out and cut out his Adams apple.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Debalic wrote:
I would ask where you're registered for your baby shower.
well, I don't have kids, so this would be thinking in the abstract hypothetical, but i'd probably go along with the wishes of the child. Definitly talk to them, explain the situation in detail, and don't talk down to them. Let them know that if they choose that path their life will be harder than it might have been otherwise, argue with them if you believe their decision is wrong and present your case, but let them know that you will support and love them whatever they do regardless.
They are your kid, and if you won't support them for who they are, who you helped mold them to be, then you have no buisiness being their parent. Unless your entire goal is to drive them insane for your own twisted amusement, in which case, carry on?
They are your kid, and if you won't support them for who they are, who you helped mold them to be, then you have no buisiness being their parent. Unless your entire goal is to drive them insane for your own twisted amusement, in which case, carry on?
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This broke my heart:
NPR, describing Bradley's reaction to having his girl-toys taken, wrote:
As his pile of toys dwindled, Carol realized Bradley was hoarding. She would find female action figures stashed between couch pillows. Rainbow unicorns were hidden in the back of Bradley's closet. Bradley seemed at a loss, she said. They gave him male toys, but he chose not to play at all.
"He turned to coloring and drawing, and he just simply wouldn't play with anything. And he would color and draw for hours and hours and hours. And that would be all he did in a day," Carol says. "I think he was really lost. ... The whole way that he knew and understood how to play was just sort of, you know, removed from his house."
His drawings, however, also proved problematic. Bradley would populate his pictures with the toys and interests he no longer had access to — princesses with long flowing hair, fairies in elaborate dresses, rainbows of pink and purple and pale yellow. So, under Zucker's direction, Carol and her husband sought to change this as well.
"We would ask him, 'Can you draw a boy for us? Can you draw a boy in that picture?' ... And then he didn't really want us to see his drawings or watch him drawing because we would always say 'Can you draw a boy?'" Carol says. "And then finally after, I don't know, a month or two, he just said, 'Momma, I don't know how. ... I don't know how to draw a boy.'"
Carol says she finally sat down and showed him. From then on, Bradley drew boys as directed. Male figures with anemic caps of hair on their heads filled the pages of his sketchbook.
"He turned to coloring and drawing, and he just simply wouldn't play with anything. And he would color and draw for hours and hours and hours. And that would be all he did in a day," Carol says. "I think he was really lost. ... The whole way that he knew and understood how to play was just sort of, you know, removed from his house."
His drawings, however, also proved problematic. Bradley would populate his pictures with the toys and interests he no longer had access to — princesses with long flowing hair, fairies in elaborate dresses, rainbows of pink and purple and pale yellow. So, under Zucker's direction, Carol and her husband sought to change this as well.
"We would ask him, 'Can you draw a boy for us? Can you draw a boy in that picture?' ... And then he didn't really want us to see his drawings or watch him drawing because we would always say 'Can you draw a boy?'" Carol says. "And then finally after, I don't know, a month or two, he just said, 'Momma, I don't know how. ... I don't know how to draw a boy.'"
Carol says she finally sat down and showed him. From then on, Bradley drew boys as directed. Male figures with anemic caps of hair on their heads filled the pages of his sketchbook.
Atomicflea wrote:
Debalic wrote:
I would ask where you're registered for your baby shower.
Oh, so this isn't a sign of impending crotch-fruit.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Debalic wrote:
Atomicflea wrote:
Debalic wrote:
I would ask where you're registered for your baby shower.
Oh, so this isn't a sign of impending crotch-fruit.
it might be a different perspective for one until you become a parent. It's not as black and white once you have a child of your own. But if it were my child my thoughts are that I would do what made my child happy. It is essential for self confidence in ones self as an adult to have ones thoughts, feelings, and opinions heard and validated as a child. If a child is continuously told that what makes them happy is wrong, it will make them question themselves unendingly as they grow up. The thought process that gender geared toys are wrong for those of the other gender to play with add issues that are not needed.
As for the drugs, I'm glad it's something I dont need to worry about. My gut tells me that while it's ok to think along lines not considered norm per gender, I would not wish to chemically change my child prior to puberty. If, at the age of majority, they wish to do something on their own, they would have my blessing and support. But a childs body is not fully developed physically, and their mental understanding is not up to par with an adults with the understanding of what they would actually be doing. It's a long term decision for their life. And I would feel better if my child grew to majority and then decided to make such a drastic change to their body.
As for the drugs, I'm glad it's something I dont need to worry about. My gut tells me that while it's ok to think along lines not considered norm per gender, I would not wish to chemically change my child prior to puberty. If, at the age of majority, they wish to do something on their own, they would have my blessing and support. But a childs body is not fully developed physically, and their mental understanding is not up to par with an adults with the understanding of what they would actually be doing. It's a long term decision for their life. And I would feel better if my child grew to majority and then decided to make such a drastic change to their body.
I didn't hear the series (but thank you for the links because I wanted to) but Mr. Ambrya was telling me about this the other day. From what he described, it sounds like the way Bradley's parents were being instructed to treat him was absolutely heartless, especially given the rationale for the actions, which Mr. Ambrya told me was basically, "no one will like him if he's transgendered."
I know of people with children as young as 3 who are trying to "steer" their boy away from "girly" pursuits and it just makes me want to tear my hair out in frustration. One sister of a friend of mine gave her 3-year-old son the letter he had dictated for Santa Claus back this past Christmas and instructed him to rewrite it, because "Santa Claus won't bring little boys girl's toys." My heart broke when she told me about that. A child that young is not choosing a gender just because he wants to play with toys typically associated with the other gender, and all that rampant homophobia on the parents' part is going to do is make the child feel insecure about himself.
My kid will be allowed to be whatever he wants to be. When he's old enough to start picking his own clothes and he wants pink shoes with purple flowers, fine. I'm okay with that. He will be loved and supported and accepted for who and what he is, even if he turns out to be a she in the end.
I know of people with children as young as 3 who are trying to "steer" their boy away from "girly" pursuits and it just makes me want to tear my hair out in frustration. One sister of a friend of mine gave her 3-year-old son the letter he had dictated for Santa Claus back this past Christmas and instructed him to rewrite it, because "Santa Claus won't bring little boys girl's toys." My heart broke when she told me about that. A child that young is not choosing a gender just because he wants to play with toys typically associated with the other gender, and all that rampant homophobia on the parents' part is going to do is make the child feel insecure about himself.
My kid will be allowed to be whatever he wants to be. When he's old enough to start picking his own clothes and he wants pink shoes with purple flowers, fine. I'm okay with that. He will be loved and supported and accepted for who and what he is, even if he turns out to be a she in the end.
Atomicflea wrote:
This broke my heart:
I have tears in my eyes just reading that.
I wonder if that's why I bought those She-Ra toys those decades ago...
other than just so she could make whoopie with He-Man
other than just so she could make whoopie with He-Man
There's nothing wrong with allowing boys to have girl toys and vice versa.
I whined and whined to my parents until they caved in and bought me micromachines and other matchbox cars instead of more Barbies. My fiance said he was the opposite; he stole all his sister's dolls and played dress up with them.
(Now, my best friend and I stole her brother's GI Joes and had them go on very explicit dates with Barbie, but that was just us exploring our sexuality in a healthy way. Or so I'd like to believe.)
I have a couple of girl friends that are more male gendered; one is living as a guy and I think has been contemplating the surgery ("he" has already had a legal name change), whereas the other one has just sucked it up, gotten married to a guy, and internalized a lot of her mental anguish. One is happy, one is not. One is stable, one is not.
So, having seen these two, to me the choice is pretty clear . . . kids should be allowed to develop into the gender that they believe fits them best, if they are to be sane adults in the future.
I whined and whined to my parents until they caved in and bought me micromachines and other matchbox cars instead of more Barbies. My fiance said he was the opposite; he stole all his sister's dolls and played dress up with them.
(Now, my best friend and I stole her brother's GI Joes and had them go on very explicit dates with Barbie, but that was just us exploring our sexuality in a healthy way. Or so I'd like to believe.)
I have a couple of girl friends that are more male gendered; one is living as a guy and I think has been contemplating the surgery ("he" has already had a legal name change), whereas the other one has just sucked it up, gotten married to a guy, and internalized a lot of her mental anguish. One is happy, one is not. One is stable, one is not.
So, having seen these two, to me the choice is pretty clear . . . kids should be allowed to develop into the gender that they believe fits them best, if they are to be sane adults in the future.
All I know is, my older brother was so happy to play with my Barbie dolls with me... even when I was not that into it. "Oh, come on! It'll be fun. We'll make furniture for her."
We used to play dress up and have tea parties. My parents thought he was such a good sport, playing nicely with his little sister.
We used to play dress up and have tea parties. My parents thought he was such a good sport, playing nicely with his little sister.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
Quote:
He explained that unless Carol and her husband helped the child to change his behavior, as Bradley grew older, he likely would be rejected by both peer groups. Boys would find his feminine interests unappealing. Girls would want more boyish boys. Bradley would be an outcast.
This is the part that was annoying me when Mr. Ambrya told me about it, and it's still bothering me.
I was thinking about this a lot last night as I was trying to go to sleep, wondering if the social stigma of being "out" transgendered is worse than the depression and self-consciousness and host of other problems almost certainly inherent in repressing one's true gender identity. I suppose you have to ask yourself, what do you want most for your child, and which path is likely to help you achieve that?
For myself, I want my child to be happy, healthy, and successful at whatever it is he chooses to do in life (within reason--if his happiness and success are contingent upon being a drug dealer, bank robber, or corporate defense attorney, we might have issues.)
My personal theory is that the #1 thing a person needs to be happy and successful in life is self-confidence. Therefore, I suspect a child would be more happy and successful as a confident transgendered person than a self-doubting person browbeaten into living by the gender dictated by his or her physiology. And as our culture becomes more and more GLBT-friendly, the social stigma is going to become less and less, thus removing that impediment anyway.
A position which would seem to be supported by this:
Quote:
Last year, when he started kindergarten, Jonah went as a girl. He wore dresses, was addressed as "she" by his classmates and teacher. He even changed his name, from Jonah to Jona, without the "h." It was a complete transformation.
Joel and Pam were initially anxious, but Joel says their worry soon faded.
"They have these little conferences, and, you know, we were asking, like, 'How's Jonah doing? Does she have problems with other kids?' and the teacher was like, 'God, I gotta tell you, you know, Jonah is one of the most popular kids. Kids love her, they want to play with her, she's fun, and it's because she's so comfortable with herslef that she makes other people comfortable," Joel recalls.
Joel and Pam were initially anxious, but Joel says their worry soon faded.
"They have these little conferences, and, you know, we were asking, like, 'How's Jonah doing? Does she have problems with other kids?' and the teacher was like, 'God, I gotta tell you, you know, Jonah is one of the most popular kids. Kids love her, they want to play with her, she's fun, and it's because she's so comfortable with herslef that she makes other people comfortable," Joel recalls.
Edited, May 12th 2008 8:39am by Ambrya
I dunno... I'm kind of set into the notion that gender is determined by biology, regardless of the social trappings or medical hocus-pocus we're capable of. I suppose I could deal with the My Little Pony's and purple glitter pens but I'll admit that I'd have a real struggle with dressing my six year old son up in drag and calling him "her". Much less chemically treat him with hormones to delay puberty and help him keep his choir boy voice.
Given that I'm bucking the trend so far in this thread, we can all just be happy that it's unlikely that I'll ever have to concern myself with it.
Given that I'm bucking the trend so far in this thread, we can all just be happy that it's unlikely that I'll ever have to concern myself with it.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
What are all you parents worrying about? This is why they make miraculous drugs like Prozac.
First, I think there are too many conclusions being drawn from toy selection.
Second, hormone treatment, whether to make little boys manlier, or short kids taller, or simply delay puberty seems unnatural. I mean, do we really want to see the extinction of short people, or men that like to design clothing?
I had one episode while parenting that taught me my lesson. I bought my son a "My Little Buddy" doll when he was about three, thinking it was all socially correct and what-not. He never played with it. But my daughter never really played with dolls either.
From then on, toys and other gifts, were based on what they specifically asked for or had shown some desire for.
Second, hormone treatment, whether to make little boys manlier, or short kids taller, or simply delay puberty seems unnatural. I mean, do we really want to see the extinction of short people, or men that like to design clothing?
I had one episode while parenting that taught me my lesson. I bought my son a "My Little Buddy" doll when he was about three, thinking it was all socially correct and what-not. He never played with it. But my daughter never really played with dolls either.
From then on, toys and other gifts, were based on what they specifically asked for or had shown some desire for.
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
I'd say, let them do what they want. Self-confidence is what really matters, so if the child knows what he/she likes, let them do it. And if they're feeling left out of a social group at least they have your love and support. Kids aren't kids forever and will eventually need to make their own way. The parent's job is to advise and support... but let them decide.
That said, hormone treatments seem really sketchy to me; and I'm not sure if children should be allowed to make a completely life-and-chemical-composition-altering decision before they're at least 14. Which might be unfortunate, if the best rate of success is pre-puberty (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just assuming from the "delaying" treatments conversation that that is the reason for it).
That said, hormone treatments seem really sketchy to me; and I'm not sure if children should be allowed to make a completely life-and-chemical-composition-altering decision before they're at least 14. Which might be unfortunate, if the best rate of success is pre-puberty (I'm not sure if it is, I'm just assuming from the "delaying" treatments conversation that that is the reason for it).
Tailmon should be here.
Thumbelyna wrote:
Tailmon should be here.
Yes, because Tailmon behaves so well here.
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
It seems to me that Dr. Zucker's methods, besides being suspect psychologically and medically in regard to his views about roots of trangender identity, also err in that he has such a binary view of gender and a narrow view of what it means to be a boy. To be honest, his prohibitions seem so restrictive and unnecessary ( this kid has a horror and is triggered by seeing the color pink) that personally, if I were working with him, I'd file a complaint against him with the licensing board. Frankly, in this day and age, and in a major city where he practices, I am surprised he isn't on probation. But then again, there are alot of unchecked abuses in mental health, so it shouldn't be that surprising.
I am glad to see kids who are able to live in some families where they are actually given some latitude to explore their gender identity, so the kids will not grow up with such secrecy and shame. I wouldn't necessarily endorse hormone therapy for young kids (I don't know enough to advocate for that) but still, the idea that they can create and really honestly talk about their identity is healthy.
Edited, May 12th 2008 1:39pm by Annabella
I am glad to see kids who are able to live in some families where they are actually given some latitude to explore their gender identity, so the kids will not grow up with such secrecy and shame. I wouldn't necessarily endorse hormone therapy for young kids (I don't know enough to advocate for that) but still, the idea that they can create and really honestly talk about their identity is healthy.
Edited, May 12th 2008 1:39pm by Annabella
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
So making Jack wear Mia's old pyjamas is bad?
But he looks so cute in cupcakes and flowers!
But he looks so cute in cupcakes and flowers!
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
Samira wrote:
Thumbelyna wrote:
Tailmon should be here.
Yes, because Tailmon behaves so well here.
That I'm sure that he could be held up as a prime example of the product of Zucker method.
Thumbelyna wrote:
Samira wrote:
Thumbelyna wrote:
Tailmon should be here.
Yes, because Tailmon behaves so well here.
That I'm sure that he could be held up as a prime example of the product of Zucker method.
Oh, clever!
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.
WWYD? Yoda would say, "Toys play are for. Gender make not. Hmmmmmm?"
Totem
Totem
Speaking from my experience, I have to say that one should never try to force a child to feel that they should be the gender, you prefer they should be.
My ex father's negative reaction of any sign of my ex wanting to be a girl, my ex took out their anger at being born in a male body on me and my girls.
It wasn't until I realize how damage my ex was mentally. because he had been expected to be macho, that I could face the fact that they were abusive and I needed to think about getting out of my marriage. I then got to meet many other older transgender people, who were made as children ashame of their feeling of what gender they where. Most of them show very deep signs of depression, that few were able to over come once they accepted their gender identity.
While being able to get support for being transgender at an early age is both better for a child's mental health and outwear appearance, I can't say it justifies giving a child hormones to delay onset of puberty. I also feel the that risk of taking hormones as an adult female is too risky, when one looks at how they been link to breast cancer, has a lot to do on how I feel about the issue.
My ex and I had to go before the state about child support, when he went on welfare. At the end of the meeting, the official ask how she and her husband should respond to their son acting feminine. We told her just let him enjoy what he wanted and be ready to support their son if they later express their desire to be female.
Since my grandson was born I had been worried about how to explain the fact that my ex was transgender to him. Yesterday he talk of my ex, as both a "she" and his grandfather, and seem rather comfortable with it. In fact far more then his Mom and her sister are. They instead had to keep the fact that their father wanted to live as a female secret for years before he came out of the closet.
My ex father's negative reaction of any sign of my ex wanting to be a girl, my ex took out their anger at being born in a male body on me and my girls.
It wasn't until I realize how damage my ex was mentally. because he had been expected to be macho, that I could face the fact that they were abusive and I needed to think about getting out of my marriage. I then got to meet many other older transgender people, who were made as children ashame of their feeling of what gender they where. Most of them show very deep signs of depression, that few were able to over come once they accepted their gender identity.
While being able to get support for being transgender at an early age is both better for a child's mental health and outwear appearance, I can't say it justifies giving a child hormones to delay onset of puberty. I also feel the that risk of taking hormones as an adult female is too risky, when one looks at how they been link to breast cancer, has a lot to do on how I feel about the issue.
My ex and I had to go before the state about child support, when he went on welfare. At the end of the meeting, the official ask how she and her husband should respond to their son acting feminine. We told her just let him enjoy what he wanted and be ready to support their son if they later express their desire to be female.
Since my grandson was born I had been worried about how to explain the fact that my ex was transgender to him. Yesterday he talk of my ex, as both a "she" and his grandfather, and seem rather comfortable with it. In fact far more then his Mom and her sister are. They instead had to keep the fact that their father wanted to live as a female secret for years before he came out of the closet.
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
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