I live in NC and voted for the black guy...Follow

I have never heard Clinton say she's the illiterate man's candidate, but I s'pose that is sort of the implication, isn't it?

Look, you're parroting every smear slogan the Clinton camp has vomited forth to this point. Remember when I called you "easily swayed and scared"? That's what I was referring to.

Edited, May 7th 2008 11:25pm by Barkingturtle

Yes, because she didnt bail on them entirely. If you bail on them 99.9% you still did not bail on them entirely. Obama bailed on them 100% and without some serious comprimise on his part will find that to be to his detriment.

Its really an easy sale. McCain doesnt have to bring up Clinton saying this, and if Obama does it weakens him in saying that she should have been the nominee. His out in this is weak to none.

It is if you're easily sold, I guess.

You know, you're not the first to apply the monstrously offensive and boundlessly witty "Fartingturtle" moniker to me. Varrus has done it, too.

Good company you find yourself in, there.

I understand that you were unable to either comprehend or at the very least read the actual point I made back there, and were instead forced to rely upon some rather pathetic and unentertaining ad hominem. I forgive you, and in fact feel nothing but pity.

Barkingturtle?

Like 3-5 min quick replys then a no show?

No more ad hominem to add on vs actual debate?

I truly pity you. 13k posts and summarily spanked by an old school dumbass.

Ah well. On the plus side I will probably be summarily spanked by Johp and Smash for disagreeing with them shortly. Feel free to rejoice in my upcoming demise. Yes I will probably be dumb enough to keep trying to reply to them too. Of course the level of discourse will go up but you should be able to follow it afterall you can spell.

Either way passing regards from the other easily swayed dummy.

Lemme guess, your excuse is its not your day off like it is mine, yet you managed 4-5 quick replies and when finally swatted harshly/easily/quickly decided you didnt have a shot so quit replying. ( fyi, its much harder to reply to someone like Joph/Smash who actually argues something other then how many names they can call someone quickly. Err wait Smash maybe an exception on that sometimes he delights on how quickly he can call someone names)

PS. What was your point in all of this? Well besides some ad hominem, you had something that you didnt yet share I hope, or was it truly pointless. Really didnt you? .... Really?

PPS. no I really cant spell, dance nekid in jubilee knowing that I may mispell decision again and probably did just there. I ***** up your and you are a lot too add that to your pat on the back list for being elite.

Congrats RP you said what he supposedly was saying. Yes you kept up the namecalling but I am dumb and enjoy that, you did at least come into the debate which he never did.

/bow

Ok my football analogy was weak/lame. What would you use as an analogy here?

Michigan is a state in play and I would not be so dismissive at such an obvious tactic available to the RNC. Florida is definately in play and none of you have chosen to go there.

So your answer for him is I chose not to fight because it didnt matter?

I prefer Clinton obviously, and she with her experience didnt make this gaff because of the obvious weakness it leaves for the general election. You call it stupid I call it experience. What you are calling me and her stupid for and saluting Obama for is what I would call inexperience.

Yes I know my football analogy is lame but give me one QB with 2 or less years experience that will out perform Brady, Peyton (yes I mispoke before and said Eli) or even in my first example Urlacher/Lewis. Or in your brillance come up with a better analogy. Really you attack my analogy, with no reason other then calling it stupid, and offer, like the others nothing in exchange. Is it that you are also afraid of discourse or realize that I am correct, and have nothing better to offer?

I am again admittedly stupid so dumb it down for me I need the help.

I in my ignorance am probably not correct but like what 40% of the Clintonistas will go to McCain over Obama based on things like trust and experience. You are the one who knows why the educated "elite" vote for Obama and the dumb people like me vote for Clinton. Explain it to me in simple words please, then attack me for calling his supporters elitists.

I never called Obama an elitist btw, I think he is an amazing speaker and would love to have his support as VP to Clinton. With experience and some sort of track record I could even see me voting for him in 2012 or 2016 (after Clinton) for president. McCain will probably only win this election and Obama would be a hell of an opponent to unseat him then. He played his hand too early and has divided the democratic party and allowed the Republicans to have a more then reasonable hope to win this election. Polls have him split/losing with McCain and Hillary at a slight lead. But your welcome to continue.

You wont back out on me like some Democrats do states and leave me wondering if you care will you?

I mentioned Florida. There's less to argue there because the question for FL is simply whether or not to seat the delegates per the FL results. They'll almost certainly be seated. MI is a bigger debate because of the ballot situation although I don't doubt for a second that the MI delegates will be seated in some proportion as well. He chose not to be on the ballot because it wasn't a valid primary. Everyone knew that and admitted it. Some of Clinton's chief people were instrumental in getting the MI/FL delegates stripped in the first place. Clinton didn't care about them herself until her stumble in the first primaries made her weak and she needed the votes.This really holds true if you accept that it was a "gaff" or will be a problem. I don't for the reasons I've stated up-thread.

You know though, speaking of experience and skill, I do feel bad for Clinton. She's obviously a smart woman and is very much a policy wonk. I don't doubt that she reads documents with interest that'd have me bored and scratching my head by page 2. She was getting groomed for this election and expected it to be hers. However, she made some terrible, terrible misjudgements in this campaign (starting with essentially blowing off Iowa until the last moment and thus completely changing the narrative in the media about who was the front-runner) and she's been playing catch-up ever since. If she had the skill and experience to hire competent people to run her campaign and the wisdom to know to reject stupid advice, she'd probably be the nominee. But she didn't and the hole she's in is her own.I doubt it. There'll be stark contrasts draw between Obama and McCain on partisan lines and most Clinton supporters will realize that voting for McCain and his hawkish Republican policies just to spite Obama is a dumb idea. I'd be saying the same about Obama's supporters if Clinton won the nomination.Polls show both Obama and Clinton leading over McCain and within 1 point of one another. Once the nomination is decided and polls stop reflecting the intra-party divide, it'll shore up for either Democrat. Even McCain has been warning to the Democrat will see a sizable bump in the polls once it's decided.Personally, I was all for the MI/FL decision well before the primary season started. The primary creep was getting ridiculous and the DNC finally drew a line in the sand at Feb 5th. MI and FL state legislatures, with full support from their Democratic factions, voted to cross that line because they assumed there'd be no consequence. There was a consequence and I applaud Obama for not pandering and saying "Yeah, they broke the rules and told the DNC to fuck off, but let's give them a hug and tell them it's okay anyway."

I don't see what warrants an analogy. It's not really that complicated.

You can prefer Clinton over Obama. That's fine, it's your choice, and it's really not that bad, some people actually voted for Bush twice, so there's nothing wrong with that. But that choice should be made for the right reasons. Or at least for some decent reasons.



Just because he didn't campaign there during the primaries, it doesn't mean he won't do it for the election.



because it was invalid.



No, she did in the hope the invalidity of the election would be overturned. She is experienced in politics though, i'll give you that.



The content of your analogy doesn't matter, it's the concept that's completely flawed. All you gain it from it is another way of saying "I prefer X to Y cos I think X is better". Well, super.

If you wanna do that analogy, then please explain how the speed, power, accuracy, athleticism, strength, game-reading abilities of a scouted football player translate into the requirement for Presidents, such as, i dunno, intelligence, economic knowledge, influence, charisma, diplomacy, decision-making, etc... Then explain to me how I can translate the medium/long term effects effects of integrating a new player into a team into something remotely similar to governing the world's most influential state.

With coefficients.



40% seems way too high. People are exagerating their feelings cos its the heat of the battle, but the Shit hits the fan and its a choice between a Democrat or 4 more years of Republicans, most Democrats will pick their own side.



Again, I couldn't care less that you prefer Hillary. It's the irrelant arguments you use and the complete lack of logic that bothers me.

From what I've understood, the policies of Obama and Clinton, the way they would run the country, the people they would appoint, the general philosophy they would have, are a million times more similar than if you compare those of Clinton and McCain. If you base your voting choice on those criterias, you'll vote for whoever is the Democratic nominee. Logically. If you don't, then it means you're basing your choice on other critierias, which obviously outweight the political/policy ones.

So, what are those other critierias? The only one you mention is "experience", which I would just call "old age".



According to election results, he's the most popular candidate amongst democrats. Isn't that the point of democracy? Who are you to judge he "played his hand too early", when the majority disagree? Isn't that a bit, hmm, elitist?

Buzz is that the Rules & Bylaws Committee is planning on telling MI/FL to take a leap regardless of how Clinton & Obama feel about the proposed deals. They have some notion that when they pass rules & bylaws, the state parties are supposed to follow them and are more peeved about being told to ***** off by MI/FL than they are worried about the Clinton/Obama spat. Rules are only worth their enforcement and all that.

Clinton rejects Michigan compromise

She's not interested in seeing MI delegates sat, she's interested in trying to wring some slight advantage from it.

Virgin Islands?

Back when I was cheering for my babydaddy wunderkind Edwards, I used to think that if he bowed out I'd go to Hillary, what with her having bewbs. Add to that, my vote for Bill Clinton was the first I cast, and I skipped school to go to his inauguration. I still remember the sense of reassurance in my government, of possibility and reassurance. I had yay for him, her, the whole shebang.

The tide turned for me when she started not only to dodge and parry (expected), but when she did so so obviously, so repeatedly and flagrantly based on which way the wind blew, that I realized she's a Democrat the way McCain is a Republican. They say they're all for the party, but really they care more about themselves and what they perceive is their expected place in the order of things than they ever will about anything else. It's not that I'm an innocent who expects that my politicians will all do as they say (far from it), but I simply can't stand the consistent dry skullfucking. At least Obama romances me.

RP copout you have not a better arguement so call mine stupd and be done with it, disagree pony up an analogy, or I will call you weak mean it and have it proven by your lack. Enuf said.

As to MI, I will admit prior to Joph saying it I didnt know that he had actually pulled his name off the ballot( a last mintue filing he is now trying to claim is against the agreement he and Hillary accepted because her name was on the ballot which "constituted her campainging in the state" via surrogates of course). The reason for RNC domination on this in response are he was a coward and wouldnt face Hillary or he didnt care about what they thought. Good spin for them either way. Chicken Obama vs Dont give a ****= RNC win.

Intresting thing I have discovered viewing this, (yes I have been at work and no I cant post from work, or even view, its "game related, freaking fantasy football is blocked too, btw) Obama's first race:

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/chi-070403obama-ballot,1,57567.story?page=1

He got everyone kicked of the ballot the first time he won anything that mattered. YAY!!! (So even tempered, so charismatic, so unopposed)

Yes I am aware he will probably win the primary, still I spent 50 bucks on better odds then I have at the lotto I am content. McCain has the horrid job of straddling the Bush on his hands with a poor job of this he wins close with a good job he wins by a McGovern like landslide.

Obama is much like a first round pick in the NFL, bring something more then your stupid I will stop using the analogy ,( read BT and RP. /smirk) he has a ton of promise but notthing to back it on. McCain has his years of service ( if he hadnt suckled the Bush tit so hard and so long in 2004 it wouldnt be close he would be my bish) Clinton has hers(add on the rockstar), Obama has....

Obama will probably win the primary I would bet probably 3 to 1 on that ( my donation to Clinton aside) but my best years alive have been under a Clinton president. Not Nixon, not Ford, not Reagan, not Carter, not Bushes, but a Clinton, much was attributed to her under his presidency, and with him/her I feel 100000% more confident. The end of the story is she is sleeping with him next to her in the Whitehouse and I feel more confident about that then I feel about any other canidate currently or who pretended to run for president.

ymmv.

Congrats preemptively on making sure that he is 1 term if he manages to pull the UPSET of the century (look out Truman) and makes Carter look like such a genius that we get 24 years instead of 12 in right wing presidents.

Hey but if I still have the money to pay for internet access I will at least be able to say I told you so....