What if?Follow

There is nothing we can or say that would placate extremist Muslims. The only possible acceptable response is our death and destruction. What is silly is this notion that if we somehow be nicer, become more understanding, or elect a president who is more... European, heheh, that this will turn the tide and restore the United States back to its former place in the eyes of the Muslim world.

What this fails to acknowledge is that this is not a religious war or a conflict based on military or economic empire (although those two reasons do impact on the real reason), but that this is a cultural war and nothing short of the complete annihilation of American culture-- and by extention, European/Western culture --would do the trick. And obviously, this is not going to change, therefore this conflict will continue until one or the other wins out.

And that isn't difficult to predict. After all, what does a culture based on 8th century Arabic life have to offer beyond a vague idea of piousness? Even if America were to go up in a big cloud of radioactive smoke, there would another culture there to take American/Hollywood/McDonald/Coca-Cola/MTV's place. Be it Chinese, European, Russian, whatever, anything trumps what Islamofacists are selling. Muslim culture is bankrupt until it addresses basic human concerns like women's rights, freedom of expression, and a far broader definition of what consitutes religosity.

In the meantime, Osama continues to live in a cave. Ironically, this is approximately the same life and culture he promises the rest of his fellow Muslims in terms of his world vision. But yes, if I were him I'd be all over endorsing Obama.

Totem

It's true! Because a Muslim named candidate is the front runner, the terrorists have won!
;)

Totem

Stfu, you freaking Kiwi. It's our God given right to kill other 'Mericans as we see fit. And we do it with normal natural names that come from God fearing countries like Ireland, England, and errrr, France. Ok, scratch France and pencil in Germany and Sweden.
Damn furiner.

Totem

Edited, Apr 8th 2008 10:20pm by Totem

Certainly. We gave the Palestinians their own nation-- nobody, not even their Arab brothers had done that before.

Totem

Ever heard of Hamas? What more do we need to do before they reciprocate with something equally momentous? Seriously, what more does anybody need to do before the Pallys stop firing rockets into Israel?

Totem

What don't you understand? I said there's nothing we can do to placate extremist Muslims. You asked if anybody ever tried. I answered, yes, we gave Palestinians their own country-- a rather grand and magnanimous gesture. You responded, "Huh? Palestinians are extremist Muslims?" I pointed out that they elected Hamas, a terrorist organization to run their country.

That's pretty straightforward. We recognise their right to statehood and they respond in kind by placing a terrorist organization in charge and fire munitions into their neighbor's country.

So, yes, we have tried-- more than their own kind have tried as a matter of fact.

Totem

I gotta say that it was bloody careless of them to lose wherever it was that they had been living before they became 'homeless'.


Where was that again???

What about the ones who voted for him twice?

They've been militarily occupied for the best part of the last 50 years: they've been victims of economic blockades, roadblocks, they've had their livelihoods consistently destroyed, they've been prevented from trading with their neighbours, and they're 100% dependent on Israelis to do anything. Witness the recent "shutting down" of the strip: Israel just cut off electricity and water of the whole strip for a few days, and completely blockaded it. Not only is this completely illegal in international law, it also shows how Israel is the only one in charge.

So, what about asking Israel to be a good and peaceful neighbour? You know, by not settling on Palestinian lands, as stated by interntional law, and as promised by them in every single road map they never follow? By not building an illegal fence that eats up Palestinian territory to protect illegal setlements? Or maybe by putting an end to illegal assassinations in Palestinian territory? You know, when one of their airplanes drops a bomb on a whole block of flats in the belief there might be some 60 half-blind Hamas militant in there? And how do they call the unrelated children that live in the appartment block and die under the crumbling building? Collateral damage?

Or maybe by showing some humanitarian concern, by not stating that, in the words of the Israeli Internal Security Minister Avi Dichter, rocket fire by Palestinian armed groups must be “stopped completely irrespective of the cost to the Palestinians.” You know, those 1960s rockets that haven't killed anyone in years.

I wish I could say it's a two-way street. But it's not even that. Every single one of us on this board, had we been born in the West Bank or Gaza, would today be suffering, daily, from humiliation and depravation. We'd have 0 ecomonic prospect of escaping abject poverty, we'd be trapped in a giant prison, and be victims to the whims and desire of Israeli policy-makers and soldiers. Not only you, but that would've been the story of your dad, and your grand-dad, both of whom are either dead or has been living in a refugee camp for the past 40 years.

What would you do? Seriously, imagine that scenario one second, and tell me what you would do.

Finally, and this is the biggest irony of all, Israel has no choice but to allow for the creation of a viable Palestinian state. No alternative. It's the only way their security and ties with neighbours will ever improve.

The whole situation is complex, but the one simple thing in all this is that there is no alternative to a viable Palestinian state. Israelis are just a bit slow in accepting that painfully obvious fact.

So the Palestinians are still paying for the actions of Egypt and Jordan 40 years ago?



********* They gave up suicide bombings. They agreed to the road-map. The West Bank is controlled by Fatah who hasn't killed/threatened an Israeli in what? months? a year? two? Seriously, when was the last time Fatah did anything violent towards Israel? That Abbas renegged on a promise? Even Hamas has offered Israel a long-term cease-fire that Israel refused.

On the other side, Israel still consistently violates the clauses it agreed to in the road map, as well as whole chunks on interntional law.



I know they all look the same, but Egypt is not the Palestinians. Neither is Lebanon, Jordan or Iran. I have no idea what you're on about there.



If by "legitimate" you mean "according to international law", then yes, they have an absolute right to the pre-68 borders Israel. But not to the rest. Illegal settlements are just that, illegal. Creating a de facto reality through their fence, and eating up Palestinian land in the process is not legal.

From what you're saying the Palestinian must continue to suffer because of the actions of some other Arab states 40 years ago.

But answer the question. You're born in West Bak, or Gaza. What do you do? Accpet that your whole life is a punishment for the 40 year old sins of some people who have nothing to do with you?

It didn't have to be that way. The Jews were good neighbors

If shooting you in the face when you don't leave your home that's been awarded to them by the British counts as "good" then yeah, smashing neighbors.