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#77 Mar 21 2008 at 8:11 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji
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ElneClare wrote:
Pensive silly, gbaji never really ready anything and tries to think past what he been told to by the GOP.


The "GOP" doesn't tell me what to think. Never has. I get my opinions by making my own determinations about things, not by repeating what others have said.

My judgment on this is not based on something I heard. I'm looking purely at the transcripts of sermons given by Wright, and the public statements by Obama about it, including this most recent speech.

Instead of falling back on that old horse "You're just parroting what the GOP told you to say!", you actually explain to my in plain English why you think I'm wrong? This is not about picking sides and disagreeing with whatever someone on "the other side" says. It's about looking rationally at a set of circumstances and drawing your own conclusions from them.

I'm doing that. I can clearly state why I think this is a huge problem for Obama, and it's not going to go away after one pretty speech. Instead of just coyly implying that if I read the speech a few more times, or listened to more of Wrights sermons, I'd change my mind, you actually present an argument to counter mine?

It would be a change, I know...

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Now if he had 2 brain cells that could actually think for themselves, he might have to say he wrong with out spending 4 pages trying to change the subject.


Please. If you disagree with what I've said, then address what I said. Just calling me names isn't productive.

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I won't believe gbaji has listen and read of the link Joph post about Obama. Well maybe if I could have him strap down and hooked up to a EEG to prove that he actually uses his mind to think.Smiley: wink



Look. The personal attacks are funny and all for awhile, but how about you read what I wrote and respond to that instead?


I just find it amusing that you guys keep insisting that I haven't read Obama's speech (despite clear responses to portions of it in my own writings indicating the contrary!), yet seem utterly unwilling to actually read what I write and respond to it in kind? I just don't think it's that much to ask...
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#78 Mar 21 2008 at 8:12 PM Rating: Decent
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ElneClare wrote:
gbaji, please actually listen to all of Rev. Wrights sermons and then tell me you still don't understand the issue, instead of repeating, what every negative comment about Barack Obama, has been written on numerous blogs for the last 3 days.


Please actually read what I've written, instead of just assuming that all I'm doing is repeating stuff you read on a blog somewhere.

Fair deal?
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#79 Mar 21 2008 at 8:38 PM Rating: Good
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Actually gbaji I did read what you wrote in both of the treads on the subject, which is something I don't normally do.

Yes my comments were cheap and silly poking fun at you. It's just somehow I can't see how you are able to reach your conclusions, when we seem to be reading from 2 different planets.

Up until Tuesday I was still waiting for Obama to show me more then he able to sound and look good infront of a micro phone. After i read and heard his speech I went and read his prosition papers and found someone who understood something I been wish to heard before in the nation health care debate.

Many of us on disability would love to be able to work, but won't as long as we can lose the health care that we get now. Sure the "Ticket to Work" programs will not cut one off for 6 months, but as I said many times before there is no way I could afford to stay on the medications that might allow me to hold down a job even, without complete prescription coverage and Mental Health Parity. Obama addresses this, which is something I have never hear any other politician has.

So if you feel so much that Obama should break all ties to Rev Wright, do you hold McCain to the same standard?

What happen to the Christian idea of Hate the Sin, but Love the Sinner?

I could go on with this all night, but why should I when you historically have shown you can't see the Elephant in the Room. So put that stone you are so willing to throw at another down and look at your self own heart first. I have and though I try to think past the fact I'm white female when talking to blacks and I known, I'll always be looking from across into a world I really never can completely understand no matter how much I try.

[:sm:]edit due to late hour and just can't stand seeing how bad I can mangle the English language.[:/sm:]

Edited, Mar 22nd 2008 12:44am by ElneClare
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#80 Mar 21 2008 at 10:37 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Maybe, maybe not. Polls show that the Clinton gains on Obama have topped off and are going back down again.
Gallup, which was the major poll all the outlets were trumpeting as showing Clinton's new gains on Obama now shows Obama ahead again by 3 points. Within the MOE but, from the 16th through today, Clinton's surge after the Rev. Wright fiasco went (according to Gallup*) +3%, +7%, +5%, +2%, -3%. Her bump is gone and Obama is regaining the lead.

*Other polls never actually showed her leading but Gallup was the one all the outlets seized upon so I'm using it

Edited, Mar 22nd 2008 6:25pm by Jophiel
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#81 Mar 21 2008 at 10:53 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
He fails to say what everyone already knows is true. That this church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.
You don't know fuck about Illinois politics. Don't tell ElneClare "instead of just assuming that all I'm doing is repeating stuff you read on a blog somewhere." when it's obvious that you picked this up off of a blog somewhere. Or did you have to write a paper on Chicago Democratic Politics for a computer course once and now you're an expert?

Tell you what -- give me a list of the highest ranking people in the Illinois Democratic Party who've been members of this church. After all, you're making the point that everyone knows this is how you get ahead. Have any of the state office holders attended? State senators? State House members? Federal House members? Cook County executives? Chicago alderman? Who?

Shit, if you knew anything about Illinois politics beyond what you heard on Rush Limbaugh, you'd know the most laughable flaw in your little theory.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2008 2:03am by Jophiel
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#82 Mar 22 2008 at 6:31 AM Rating: Good
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Totem wrote:
Flea, the way you talk about the Black Panthers infers as if they had some redeeming qualities. In today's world they would be viewed as a terrorist organization.
Not at all. They'd be considered as relevant as the Nation of Islam, which is in truth, not very unless you're someone who is easily put off by a radical reputation.
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#83 Mar 24 2008 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent
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Look gbaji, if you really did read the speech, explain why you have failed so utterly to acknowledge that:

-Obama stated that the sermons shown were sort of a "greatest hits" of Wright's sermons over his DECADES of preaching, but generally they were very typical of an African American church. (Oh but how are we to believe that? I don't know, maybe that there are only a handful of short clips that incite any kind of doubt at all among the many sermons.)

-Obama has no intention of distancing a man who is like family to him just because he doesn't agree with his political sentiments.

Personally, I sympathize with the guy and respect his decision. I would have done the same. I think most reasonable people would.

Now, what evidence can you offer that Obama initially joined this congregation to support his political career? Is it possible that maybe he became active in politics through the church rather than vice versa? I'm seriously asking here. I'm willing to give you the benefit of the doubt that you have a good source, but it's the first I've heard of it.

Edited, Mar 24th 2008 9:01am by Kachi
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#84 Mar 24 2008 at 2:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
He fails to say what everyone already knows is true. That this church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.
You don't know fuck about Illinois politics. Don't tell ElneClare "instead of just assuming that all I'm doing is repeating stuff you read on a blog somewhere." when it's obvious that you picked this up off of a blog somewhere. Or did you have to write a paper on Chicago Democratic Politics for a computer course once and now you're an expert?


Didn't read it off a blog Joph. It's just plain obvious to anyone who's paid any attention to politics for say the last 30 years or so...

An aspiring Black Democrat politician has to pay homage in some way to the "black church" leaders. That means attending some sort of black Liberation church, speaking well or with folks like Sharpton and Jackson, and being coy when speaking of someone like Farrakan.

While I suppose there may be an exception or two, I think you'd have to have lived under a rock for this not to be abundantly obvious to anyone.


Oh. And if you're black and a Republican? You get called names like "uncle tom" and "race traitor" by the well meaning and racially unifying people mentioned above...


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Tell you what -- give me a list of the highest ranking people in the Illinois Democratic Party who've been members of this church.


Skipped a few bits there Joph. Black Democrats, and it's not this church alone, but it's certainly one of the biggies in the Chicago area.

Do you think it's just random coincidence that someone like Oprah happened to attend the same church? She didn't start there. She moved there. Why? Difference being she had the good sense to realize what it was and moved on.


Are you seriously saying that in your entire life you never noticed that on the Republican side, people of different color don't form into separate groups, but they do in the Dem party? You never noticed that and though: "Gee! That's kinda strange for a party that's supposed to be about racial equality and all of that". And you never noticed that every single black Democrat seems to be defined by the fact that they are black? Again. There might be the rare exception, but by an large, they're all walking stereotypes Joph.


Republicans of color don't define themselves that way. They define themselves by their positions on issues other then their own skin color. You're honestly going to tell me you never noticed this?


It's not rocket science. And I don't have to read a blog to see that Wright is just another copy of the same wrongheaded ideology. As if you can combat racism by becoming that which you're fighting...
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#85 Mar 24 2008 at 2:15 PM Rating: Good
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That means attending some sort of black Liberation church


What the fUCk does that even mean?

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#86 Mar 24 2008 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
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That means attending some sort of black Liberation church


What the fUCk does that even mean?



It means Gbaji is talking out of his *** once again.
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#87 Mar 24 2008 at 2:22 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Didn't read it off a blog Joph. It's just plain obvious to anyone who's paid any attention to politics for say the last 30 years or so...
Bullshit. We've talked Illinois politics before and you have consistantly proven yourself to know fuck-all about it. I don't even mean that in a "bad" way -- I sure as hell aren't conversant in state politics outside of Illinois. But then I don't pretend to be, either.
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Skipped a few bits there Joph. Black Democrats, and it's not this church alone, but it's certainly one of the biggies in the Chicago area.
"If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church." -- Gbaji.

Uh huh. Smiley: dubious

You never answered my question -- which rising stars in Illinois politics have attended this church? If you want to defend your list by saying it only applies to black ones then list off all the black ones. But you've made a claim that this is an important church to be in if you want to rise up through Illinois politics and God knows there's a lot of black folk on the city, county, state and federal levels in Chicago so let's see that list.
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#88 Mar 24 2008 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
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Black Democrats, and it's not this church alone, but it's certainly one of the biggies in the Chicago area.
"If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church." -- Gbaji.

Uh huh


Pssst! Read the sentence just before that one Joph.
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#89 Mar 24 2008 at 2:37 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Pssst! Read the sentence just before that one Joph.
I already allowed you the "black" out. Now answer my question.

I'll make it easy -- In the Chicago area, I count 129 state senate, state house, Congressional House, Chicago aldermen and Cook County Commissioner seats. We could add "mayor" to make it an even 130 but I'm pretty sure Daley is white and Catholic. Those would be the most powerful seats in the region and the ones to go after in regional politics.

A good number of those seats are filled by African-Americans. Just tell me how many of them are members of Obama's church. Hell, just name off enough of them who are members that you can make a decent case that there's a connection. You have nearly one-hundred thirty names to choose from. Don't give me a bunch of boring "veryone knows this and this here is ONLY logical!" crap -- you said this was something everyone knows so back it up with facts instead of Gbaji bullshit-speak.

Or you can just admit that you know know shit about it. Which will be quicker and, in the end, embarass you a lot less. Keep reading those blogs, though.

Edited, Mar 24th 2008 5:39pm by Jophiel
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#90 Mar 24 2008 at 2:38 PM Rating: Good
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Nearly every voting person that I speak to is scared ******** of Obama because he is black.
So far I have heard people, in all seriousness, profess to me that he is a secret Muslim, the Anti-Christ, the harbinger of Race Wars due to his assassination, an extreme Black Nationalist, an atheist, a flag-hater, an anti-American, a dumb 'negro'...

and much of this is from democrats and liberals...

I swear to you I have even SHOWN people the dumb-*** chain-letter sources of some of these things... and later on they STILL believe the ****..
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#91 Mar 24 2008 at 3:08 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
I'll make it easy -- In the Chicago area, I count 129 state senate, state house, Congressional House, Chicago aldermen and Cook County Commissioner seats. We could add "mayor" to make it an even 130 but I'm pretty sure Daley is white and Catholic. Those would be the most powerful seats in the region and the ones to go after in regional politics.


*cough* And how many of those will ever move past holding a local city seat?

You missed the point I was going after. Maybe I didn't clarify it. Dunno.

I was not trying to say that to move up politically "in" Chicago, you must attend Trinity church (or one like it), but that in order to advance (ie: into state or federal level political office) in the Dem party as a black candidate, you have to have the sort of bona-fides I mentioned in my earlier post.

That means, that if you come "from" Chicago, attending Wright's Trinity church will help your career along.


My statement was not focused on Chicago itself. It just happens to be the setting in question. If a black democrat politician was from Alanta, and wanted to move upwards in the party, he or she would almost certainly have to attend a similar type of church in Atlanta.

Get it? I was going after how the Democrat political structure itself forces minority candidates into association with fringe political groups that effectively limit their chances at the state, much less federal level. For *exactly* the reasons Obama is having problems now.


I'm not going to get into digging up names of specific politicians in Chicago Joph, since that has *nothing* to do with the point I was making. I'm looking at national level politics primarily. It's pretty darn hard to find a black Democrat member of congress who doesn't follow the Al Sharpton school of black political identity pretty much to a tee, and part of that is attending exactly the sort of church that Obama went to.


For those not following this yet, I was simply speculating that the reason Obama attended the church had a lot to do with furthering his political career. Sure. It's speculation. But it "fits" with the pattern that most black Dem politicians follow.
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#92 Mar 24 2008 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo the Irrelevant wrote:
Nearly every voting person that I speak to is scared sh*tless of Obama because he is black.
So far I have heard people, in all seriousness, profess to me that he is a secret Muslim, the Anti-Christ, the harbinger of Race Wars due to his assassination, an extreme Black Nationalist, an atheist, a flag-hater, an anti-American, a dumb 'negro'...

and much of this is from democrats and liberals...


Funny. Most of the people I talk to are Republican and Conservatives. And I've yet to meet or talk to a single person who actually was afraid of Obama because he is black, much less would vote or not vote for him because of his skin color.


Funny that...
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#93 Mar 24 2008 at 3:19 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
And how many of those will ever move past holding a local city seat?
Chicago aldermen and Cook County board members hold more considerably power than downstate state level legislators.
gbaji wrote:
I was not trying to say that to move up politically "in" Chicago, you must attend Trinity church (or one like it), but that in order to advance (ie: into state or federal level political office) in the Dem party as a black candidate, you have to have the sort of bona-fides I mentioned in my earlier post.
Oh, so you're frantically back-pedalling away from "[T]his church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.". I got it.

That's all I needed to know.

Edited, Mar 24th 2008 6:59pm by Jophiel
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#94 Mar 24 2008 at 3:28 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Republicans of color don't define themselves that way. They define themselves by their positions on issues other then their own skin color. You're honestly going to tell me you never noticed this?

You told us that Republicans don't define themselves by positions on the issues, but rather by a grander political philosophy, which the positions happen to fall into.


You told us that defining yourself by the positions was a "liberal thing."



Edited, Mar 24th 2008 6:29pm by trickybeck
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#95 Mar 24 2008 at 5:42 PM Rating: Default
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Jophiel wrote:
Oh, so you're frantically back-pedalling away from "[T]his church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.". I got it.


Sigh. I'm talking about advancing in the national Democrat party Joph. Stop being so thick!

Does anyone even make much of a deal about local party affiliations? Usually when one talks about advancing in a political party they're not talking about winning a local election Joph. And I certainly was not.
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#96 Mar 24 2008 at 5:44 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Republicans of color don't define themselves that way. They define themselves by their positions on issues other then their own skin color. You're honestly going to tell me you never noticed this?

You told us that Republicans don't define themselves by positions on the issues, but rather by a grander political philosophy, which the positions happen to fall into.


You told us that defining yourself by the positions was a "liberal thing."


That is correct. Shorthand and all that. Wasn't relevant to this topic, in which my point was to say that Republicans *don't* define ourselves by our skin color.
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#97 Mar 24 2008 at 5:49 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Oh, so you're frantically back-pedalling away from "[T]his church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.". I got it.


Sigh. I'm talking about advancing in the national Democrat party Joph. Stop being so thick!

Does anyone even make much of a deal about local party affiliations? Usually when one talks about advancing in a political party they're not talking about winning a local election Joph. And I certainly was not.

You are mindboggling.


Edit: Actually, it's pretty obvious you aren't being serious now. If you want to maintain your status as "quasi-earnest delusional" rather than "outwardly obvious troll," you should step it back a notch.

Edited, Mar 24th 2008 8:50pm by trickybeck
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#98 Mar 24 2008 at 5:51 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Oh, so you're frantically back-pedalling away from "[T]his church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.". I got it.
Sigh. I'm talking about advancing in the national Democrat party Joph. Stop being so thick!
Uh huh. And how many federal level Democrats have come out of the church? Smiley: laugh
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Does anyone even make much of a deal about local party affiliations? Usually when one talks about advancing in a political party they're not talking about winning a local election Joph. And I certainly was not.
Remember when I said you didn't know shit about Illinois politics? Thanks for proving that for everyone here Smiley: laugh
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#99 Mar 24 2008 at 5:55 PM Rating: Good
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Republicans *don't* define ourselves by our skin color.



Its true you don't.

Sadly its also true that you make a habit out of defining others by the colour of their skin.
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#100 Mar 24 2008 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
That is correct. Shorthand and all that.

Shorthand for what?

Political philosophy? That would be shorter.


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#101 Mar 24 2008 at 6:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Oh, so you're frantically back-pedalling away from "[T]his church carries some significant weight politically for black Democrats in the region. If you want to advance in the Dem party in Illinois, it's a good idea to attend this church.". I got it.
Sigh. I'm talking about advancing in the national Democrat party Joph. Stop being so thick!
Uh huh. And how many federal level Democrats have come out of the church?


Um.... 100% of the Black members of Congress from that area?






Quote:
Remember when I said you didn't know shit about Illinois politics? Thanks for proving that for everyone here


Remember when I just said that I wasn't talking about Illinois politics?


What part of "Advancing in the Democrat party", in a thread about the political influence of a religious ideology on a black Democrat presidential candidate did you think meant I was talking about some Alderman in Chicago? I apologize if you misunderstood what I was talking about. I just thought it was obvious that I was talking about the national Democratic party, since we were talking about a candidate in a national election.

But you feel free to assume I meant something else and argue against that instead. It would at least be consistent...
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