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#127 Mar 13 2008 at 10:22 AM Rating: Decent
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Ambrya your post presented evidence to that beautifully with the whole "my kid is too good to go to school with the masses" mentality.


Well, that's an interesting and...creative...bit of editorializing, but not even remotely close to what I actually said.

The reason I am considering home school has nothing to do with elitism. It's about protecting my child.

I wish him from an environment that fosters bullies with overcrowding and insufficient attention, and then turns a blind eye to the children who suffer as a result. I was thrust into kindergarten at the age of 4 with little socialization beforehand and absolutely no clue how to protect myself. As a sensitive, imaginative, highly intelligent, slightly ADD child, I was the natural target for bullies. I had no idea why these other children, with whom I DESPERATELY wanted to make friends, were being mean to me. The adults in my life were useless. The only thing they ever told me was not to let the bullies make me cry, because if they saw I was crying, it would only egg them on. To this day, any emotion which causes me to tear up, no matter how valid, becomes a source of deep, horrifying shame, to be quickly denied, dismissed and covered up. If I hadn't been a "teacher's pet" and made friends with adults easily, I probably would have attempted suicide before grade six.l

Thirty years later, if you asked me which event in my life I found more traumatic, being sexually molested or being socially ostracized in school, I would honestly have to choose the latter. To this day I struggle with anxiety in social situations, I can't take a compliment because I'm sure the person giving it to me is mocking me somehow, and I always, always feel distrust of anyone who seems to like me, because I can't believe it's actually genuine. Put me in a crowd of unfamiliar people and I'm become a turtle, pulling my head protectively inside my shell. People tend to interpret this as my being aloof, which only makes the situation worse.

That WILL NOT happen to my child. If he shows my tendency toward hyper-imagination and sensitivity, there's no way I'm putting him in that environment. It has nothing to do with thinking he's better. It has everything to do with knowing that such an environment is DAMAGING, in the sense of causing life-long trauma, to children like I was, and like he might turn out to be.

Every other reason I gave also dealt with protection. Protection from being forced into unnecessary vaccines. Protection from the neglect and boredom that can come with being more advanced than your peers and thus learned to coast on minimal effort rather than learning to exert yourself. Or conversely, protection from being left behind if he should turn out to be slower than his peers, struggling quietly alone in shame and finally giving up.

Try addressing what I actually said, if you're going to cite me.
#128 Mar 13 2008 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
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1. That homeschooled kids were not receiving the same quality eduction as public school kids.


Impossible to determine. Standardized tests are not a complete picture of a quality education. They're a couple of pixels on your HD plasma TV.

Quote:
2. That the state has some need to ensure that they do.


Compelling state interest? I've already given reasons why they do.

Quote:
3. That this need outweighs the inherent rights of parents to raise their own children.


Whether or not parents have the "right" to be in charge of the education of their children is highly debatable. It's already established that children are not the property, but the responsibility of their parents. Parents have no right to abuse their children in any way. All children by law are entitled to a free and appropriate education-- parents have no right to give their children an inappropriate education. This is central to the discussion, because it's questionable if it's even possible to provide an appropriate education to someone in such a restricted setting.

Again, I'm not entirely opposed to homeschooling. I've considered it myself. I'm sure that there are many ways in which my children would be better served by having me in charge of their education exclusively, but there are so many valuable aspects of schooling that simply require attendance that I lean towards no.

Be active in their education while they're in school and they'll do just as well or better. If you find that they're falling behind in a subject through a fault of the school (or any reason), you have an entire summer to homeschool them.

The problem is not public schools. The problem is that parents put all the education on the school and take no responsibility for their child's learning. Parental involvement in schools has consistently shown significant gains in student performance.
#129 Mar 13 2008 at 11:08 AM Rating: Decent
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As much as it pains me to actually force my fingers to type these words, Gbaji is right on this one. Smash, you're pretty much all hat and no cattle here. Frankly, this sort of premenstrual-esque hysterical and groundless ranting is more appropriate for another poster around these parts. Are we sure the part of Smash isn't being played by Shadowrelm at the moment?


Listen, notjob. I'm not the one blinded into semi-psychosis because I'm on of the billions of people special enough to squeeze out a kid. Being mother gives you absolutely zero credibility here. It just gives you the chance to **** up a kid.

Let me explain to you what will happen: Your crippling desire to protect your kid that stems from whatever it was that happened to you when you were younger is just going to lead to a self perpetuating spiral of screwed up people for generations to come. You aren't "protecting" your child from a thing. You're ACTIVELY DAMAGING THEM. Read it again. YOU are actively damaging your child if you rob them of the chance to grow up and develop normal social skills and a sense of automity. YOU are BY FAR the largest risk to your child.

We me as well start building the prisons for your kid now, it has zero chance if you're really going to project all of the ******** that happened to you as kid onto them and try to "protect" them from imaginary dangers at the cost of their development.

STOP HURTING YOUR CHILDREN PLEASE.

PLEASE.

Get help. For them.

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#130 Mar 13 2008 at 11:15 AM Rating: Good
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The reason I am considering home school has nothing to do with elitism. It's about protecting my child.


Right. There goes the calliope again!


I wish him from an environment that fosters bullies with overcrowding and insufficient attention, and then turns a blind eye to the children who suffer as a result. I was thrust into kindergarten at the age of 4 with little socialization beforehand and absolutely no clue how to protect myself.


Dun dun dee do dun dee do dee dun dun....

YOUR CHILD IS NOT A TIME MACHINE TO FIX YOUR PROBLEMS, MRS BATES.




As a sensitive, imaginative, highly intelligent, slightly ADD child, I was the natural target for bullies. I had no idea why these other children, with whom I DESPERATELY wanted to make friends, were being mean to me.


Because you were weak. Not any of those other things. Just weakness. Bullies don't target smart imaginative kids, they target WEAK kids.



The adults in my life were useless. The only thing they ever told me was not to let the bullies make me cry, because if they saw I was crying, it would only egg them on. To this day, any emotion which causes me to tear up, no matter how valid, becomes a source of deep, horrifying shame, to be quickly denied, dismissed and covered up. If I hadn't been a "teacher's pet" and made friends with adults easily, I probably would have attempted suicide before grade six.l


Yes, BECAUSE YOU ARE MENTALLY ILL. This has nothing to do with your child.




Thirty years later, if you asked me which event in my life I found more traumatic, being sexually molested or being socially ostracized in school, I would honestly have to choose the latter. To this day I struggle with anxiety in social situations, I can't take a compliment because I'm sure the person giving it to me is mocking me somehow, and I always, always feel distrust of anyone who seems to like me, because I can't believe it's actually genuine. Put me in a crowd of unfamiliar people and I'm become a turtle, pulling my head protectively inside my shell. People tend to interpret this as my being aloof, which only makes the situation worse.


WHY ON EARTH WOULD YOU SEEK TO PASS THIS ON TO YOUR CHILD THEN?

What the ****? Do you even read your own posts?? "The thing that hurt me the most was being isolated, so I'm going to isolate my children"



That WILL NOT happen to my child.


It will, because YOU ARE MAKING IT HAPPEN TO YOUR CHILD.


If he shows my tendency toward hyper-imagination and sensitivity, there's no way I'm putting him in that environment. It has nothing to do with thinking he's better. It has everything to do with knowing that such an environment is DAMAGING, in the sense of causing life-long trauma, to children like I was, and like he might turn out to be.

Every other reason I gave also dealt with protection. Protection from being forced into unnecessary vaccines. Protection from the neglect and boredom that can come with being more advanced than your peers and thus learned to coast on minimal effort rather than learning to exert yourself. Or conversely, protection from being left behind if he should turn out to be slower than his peers, struggling quietly alone in shame and finally giving up.

Try addressing what I actually said, if you're going to cite me.



Please get help.

Please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please, please.

The thought of you running your kids lives because you won't get help for YOUR issues makes me puke. I don't care what you think of me or what you post on this forum, but really, for your kids sake, please go see a professional. You're not "OK". You're barely functioning in society and you're going to harm your children irrevocably.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#131 Mar 13 2008 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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YOUR CHILD IS NOT A TIME MACHINE TO FIX YOUR PROBLEMS, MRS BATES.


I think this is my favorite Smashism ever.

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#132 Mar 13 2008 at 12:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Even if Smash is being an ***, that doesn't make it ok to say that Gbaji is right, even if you agree with him. That's just crazy talk.
You're right Nexa, but given that he is Un Able/Willing to provide anything that backs up his stance it makes his arguement little more than hot air.

High Quality hot air but hot air non the less.

And I'm sitting on his side of the fence on this issue.
#133 Mar 13 2008 at 12:06 PM Rating: Decent
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You're right Nexa, but given that he is Un Able/Willing to provide anything that backs up his stance it makes his arguement little more than hot air.


Good critical thinking, mate. "Since he can't disprove an unproven claim, he's wrong"

You're the reason Televangelists do so well.

____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#134 Mar 13 2008 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Ambrya your post presented evidence to that beautifully with the whole "my kid is too good to go to school with the masses" mentality.


Well, that's an interesting and...creative...bit of editorializing, but not even remotely close to what I actually said.

The reason I am considering home school has nothing to do with elitism. It's about protecting my child.
...and 50 years ago it would have been them crazee black peoples you wanted to protect your kid from because one of um scared you once.

Why does your kid need or deserve more protection than any other normal warm blooded kid in this country?


editted as the alla filter found me out.

Edited, Mar 13th 2008 10:08pm by Elinda
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#135 Mar 13 2008 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

What the @#%^? Do you even read your own posts?? "The thing that hurt me the most was being isolated, so I'm going to isolate my children"


And this is where your wild and irrational assumptions once again lead you into making an *** of yourself, Smash.

Who said anything about isolating my child? If anything, I am adamant about making sure my child gets plenty of socialization, because I am conscientiously trying to curtail my own misanthropic tendencies so that they don't deprive him of social exposure. He's exposed to other kids more often than probably any baby his age who doesn't have older siblings and isn't in daycare generally can expect to be. We go to the park or the children's museum and see the other kids, we have play dates, we attend gatherings. Several times a week he's in the company of other children, which for a 9 month old baby is quite a bit. The only difference is in the quality of socialization--instead of thrusting him unprepared into an under-supervised, over-populated sty full of children whose parents may or may not be teaching them respect for others, leaving him to his own devices there, he's exposed to children who ARE being taught respect for others under supervision that will gradually lessen as time passes and he matures and becomes more capable of looking out for himself.

Once schooling begins (assuming we do decide to homeschool, which as I've said multiple times, we are CONSIDERING, we have not definitely decided) he can still participate in choirs, athletics, academic clubs, theatre, boy scouts, you name it. Hell, since our tax dollars already pay for it, he's even legally entitled to participate in school-sponsored extra-curricular activities if he so chooses.

Now go take that Midol and step away from the computer until you're feeling better, Smash.
#136 Mar 13 2008 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Good critical thinking, mate. "Since he can't disprove an unproven claim, he's wrong"

You're the reason Televangelists do so well.
I didn't say you where wrong, i said you where full of hot air.

I agree with you remember.
#137 Mar 13 2008 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
The only difference is in the quality of socialization--
And you don't see this as elitism?
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#138 Mar 13 2008 at 12:14 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:

Why does your kid need or deserve more protection than any other normal warm blooded kid in this country?


He doesn't--every child in this country needs and deserves EXACTLY the kind of protection I'm dedicating to my child from their own parents. Unfortunately, most don't get it. Which is a tragedy, but not one for which I am required to let my son suffer.

I wish desperately that every parent in this country were as dedicated to their child's well-being as I am. If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because our public school system would be so stellar that no one would think of not sending their child there.
#139 Mar 13 2008 at 12:18 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Ambrya wrote:
The only difference is in the quality of socialization--
And you don't see this as elitism?


No, because it's not. Elitism is about status. This is about safety and well-being.

If I have a choice between two places to live--one in a quiet suburb and one in a drug and crime-infested neighborhood--is it "elitism" because I choose to protect my family by living in the safer place?

Since when did wanting to provide our children with a safe, secure, nurturing environment become elitism?
#140 Mar 13 2008 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:

Why does your kid need or deserve more protection than any other normal warm blooded kid in this country?


He doesn't--every child in this country needs and deserves EXACTLY the kind of protection I'm dedicating to my child from their own parents. Unfortunately, most don't get it. Which is a tragedy, but not one for which I am required to let my son suffer.

I wish desperately that every parent in this country were as dedicated to their child's well-being as I am. If they were, we wouldn't be having this discussion because our public school system would be so stellar that no one would think of not sending their child there.
Then dedicate your passion to improving the school system instead of declaring yourself and child above it.

..another suggestion. Hold you kid back til he's six to start school. Most schools let ya do that. Then he'll be bigger than the other kids and he can be the one of the bullies.
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#141 Mar 13 2008 at 12:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Ambrya wrote:
The only difference is in the quality of socialization--
And you don't see this as elitism?


No, because it's not. Elitism is about status. This is about safety and well-being.
Umm, gated communities are about safety and well being too, yet everyone doesn't get one do they?
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#142 Mar 13 2008 at 12:25 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Then dedicate your passion to improving the school system instead of declaring yourself and child above it.


Well, it's all well and good and lovely to throw out blithe, high-minded, pie-in-the-sky suggestions about how to make the world a better place for all, but let's get back to reality, where I could dedicate my life 24-7 to volunteering in the school system and it wouldn't make a lick of difference in the quality of that school system. The only thing I can realistically do is see that I make a difference for my family, and try my best for everyone else once that's done.

Quote:
..another suggestion. Hold you kid back til he's six to start school. Most schools let ya do that. Then he'll be bigger than the other kids and he can be the one of the bullies.


That might solve the bullying issue--perhaps. It might not. It still doesn't solve the other issues I cited. Besides, why do that, when I can provide him with everything he needs in another way, without hanging upon him the stigma of the assumption that he's "slow" because he's older than his classmates?

#143 Mar 13 2008 at 12:29 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Umm, gated communities are about safety and well being too, yet everyone doesn't get one do they?


So...what? I should deprive my child of something that might be beneficial because not everyone else can give their children what I can give mine? What sort of asinine claim is that? Should I not buy my child clothes, or food, because not everyone else can feed and clothe their children?

#144 Mar 13 2008 at 12:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Ambrya wrote:
Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:

Why does your kid need or deserve more protection than any other normal warm blooded kid in this country?


He doesn't--every child in this country needs and deserves EXACTLY the kind of protection I'm dedicating to my child from their own parents. Unfortunately, most don't get it.
I think most do.
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#145 Mar 13 2008 at 12:35 PM Rating: Decent
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And this is where your wild and irrational assumptions once again lead you into making an *** of yourself, Smash.


No. This isn't about me. It's not about you. It's about your kid. The kid you're going to hurt. Please get help before you do. I'm not joking.



Who said anything about isolating my child? If anything, I am adamant about making sure my child gets plenty of socialization, because I am conscientiously trying to curtail my own misanthropic tendencies so that they don't deprive him of social exposure. He's exposed to other kids more often than probably any baby his age who doesn't have older siblings and isn't in daycare generally can expect to be. We go to the park or the children's museum and see the other kids, we have play dates, we attend gatherings. Several times a week he's in the company of other children, which for a 9 month old baby is quite a bit. The only difference is in the quality of socialization--instead of thrusting him unprepared into an under-supervised, over-populated sty full of children whose parents may or may not be teaching them respect for others, leaving him to his own devices there, he's exposed to children who ARE being taught respect for others under supervision that will gradually lessen as time passes and he matures and becomes more capable of looking out for himself.


You are crippling him for life. For life. It's not a debate. By being this sort of paranoid overly controlling person, you're crippling your son for life. He's going to violently rebel against it at a certain age and probably end up dead or in jail. You need to stop and think this through before you reach that point. It's not too late to let him have a normal childhood.


Once schooling begins (assuming we do decide to homeschool, which as I've said multiple times, we are CONSIDERING, we have not definitely decided) he can still participate in choirs, athletics, academic clubs, theatre, boy scouts, you name it. Hell, since our tax dollars already pay for it, he's even legally entitled to participate in school-sponsored extra-curricular activities if he so chooses.

Now go take that Midol and step away from the computer until you're feeling better, Smash.



The only thing I'm feeling is pity for you and fear for your son's future. Please let him have the normal childhood you didn't. Please stop thinking of him as something you're making or building. Let him have enough freedom in society to grow up to be who he wants to be instead of trying to hammer him into the mold of what you wish you were.

Please. I'm not upset. I'm not belittling you. This isn't for effect. Please don't ruin your son's life. Please.

____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#146 Mar 13 2008 at 12:40 PM Rating: Excellent
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Ambrya, I'm glad you are happy enough to stay home with your kid. Hell, maybe he'd be one of the bullies and you're saving other people's kids from him.

I'm sure you have great intentions, but saying that you're not trying to be elitist, then proclaiming that all parents should be as dedicated to their children as you are, thereby describing the rest of us as less caring for our children doesn't help your case much. I plan on educating my daughter outside of school in addition to the education she gets there.

Oh, and as an aside, and the only kid I remember getting beaten up during chorus in high school was the snobby home schooler who loved to proclaim to all how much better his private voice lessons were and how much better some of us would sound if we'd also learned to play the piano since it does wonders for your tone! I'm not usually happy to see someone get punched in the face, but we all have our moments of ethical weakness.

Nexa
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#147 Mar 13 2008 at 12:51 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
where I could dedicate my life 24-7 to volunteering in the school system and it wouldn't make a lick of difference in the quality of that school system. The only thing I can realistically do is see that I make a difference for my family, and try my best for everyone else once that's done.


So, wait. You see volunteering in your kid's school for a few hours a day as MORE work than homeschooling him for his entire K-12 school life? And where do you get that it wouldn't make a lick of difference?

You've obviously already dug your foxhole, so I'm not sure why I'm even asking.
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#148 Mar 13 2008 at 12:53 PM Rating: Decent
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Then dedicate your passion to improving the school system instead of declaring yourself and child above it.


That's the problem though. We're given one choice "the school system". How about we call it "the education system" instead?

That may seem like a minor semantic point, but it's relevant. We're channeled into a single "school system", when we the focus should be on education, not "the school". The problem with this is that the school becomes an institution (already has) and becomes the focus instead of the education it's supposed to provide.

It's why we have opposition to things like school vouchers. If the goal was truly to provide education, the state shouldn't care what school the child attends, but that's not the case. It wants them to attend the state run school and nothing else. We pay to send kids to public school. Not to educate them.


Isn't that wrong?


At some point, it should become apparent to most people that the true agenda of the statists isn't to educate your child, but to indoctrinate your child. Some of us oppose that idea...
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#149 Mar 13 2008 at 12:57 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:

That may seem like a minor semantic point, but it's relevant.


Can you just make this your signature?

Nexa
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#150 Mar 13 2008 at 12:58 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
At some point, it should become apparent to most people that the true agenda of the statists isn't to educate your child, but to indoctrinate your child. Some of us oppose that idea...


Oh. I thought it was to bully him/her.

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#151 Mar 13 2008 at 1:02 PM Rating: Good
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At some point, it should become apparent to most people that the true agenda of the statists isn't to educate your child, but to indoctrinate your child. Some of us oppose that idea...


No, the true agenda is to provide equal ACCESS to education to everyone.

Some of you are against that idea, instead wanting rich children to have more access to education than poor children.

That is what's wrong.

____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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