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#77 Mar 12 2008 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
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its something that is not historical in the fact that people have never existed in these insular households where kids aren't exposed to wider social values in any major sense.


Someone needs to let the Amish(etc.) know that as soon as possible.
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#78 Mar 12 2008 at 1:06 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

its something that is not historical in the fact that people have never existed in these insular households where kids aren't exposed to wider social values in any major sense.


Someone needs to let the Amish(etc.) know that as soon as possible.


I mean wider social values as opposed to only being exposed to their immediate nuclear family members. Amish people have high expectations of being community minded within their community and not insular within their household.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 5:07pm by Annabella
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#79 Mar 12 2008 at 1:09 PM Rating: Decent
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I mean wider social values being exposed to their immediate nuclear family members. Amish people have high expectations of being community minded within their community and not insular within their household.


Oh, I see.

I'm not under the impression that's the case with most home schooled children, however. I was more of the impression that they were mostly small clusters of nut job religious communities than one solitary family holing up their kids Ruby Ridge style.

I could be completely wrong, I'm just going on osmosis here, I'm not an expert on the social structures of paranoid crazy parents.
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#80 Mar 12 2008 at 1:15 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

I mean wider social values being exposed to their immediate nuclear family members. Amish people have high expectations of being community minded within their community and not insular within their household.


Oh, I see.

I'm not under the impression that's the case with most home schooled children, however. I was more of the impression that they were mostly small clusters of nut job religious communities than one solitary family holing up their kids Ruby Ridge style.

I could be completely wrong, I'm just going on osmosis here, I'm not an expert on the social structures of paranoid crazy parents.


I think that many of them are fundamentalists; I think you are right about what you are saying. But some aren't plugged into small communities and some fundamentalist families overvalue their privacy. There are alot of weirdo survivalist types out there too who hate government institutions and don't want their child educated in a public school system. I was also contending that I don't get people's contention about the benefits of parents who want to have total control over their child. I think kids and families are already too isolated and it just exacerbates it.
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#81 Mar 12 2008 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
You know what I'd really like to see? A website that contains all of the information taught to our children organized in the same way it is taught at school, right up through University, for every course in existence. That way, parents could actually look at what their kids are supposed to be learning and realize they don't know half the sh*t they think they do.

Actually, I want it so I can teach myself all of the things I don't know.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 4:35pm by Yodabunny


Access any grade level language, math and science curriculum and voila - that is what is "supposed" to be taught.

Yay!
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#82 Mar 12 2008 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

The vast majority of home schooled kids do better statistically then those educated in public schools


False, idiot. Take ten seconds to google sh*t, will you?



I love how you toss your assumptions out there and insist that I must disprove them all, while never actually checking your own position.

Result of 10 seconds of googling

Relevant quotes:

Quote:
. In 1997, a study of 5,402 homeschool students from 1,657 families was released. It was entitled, "Strengths of Their Own: Home Schoolers Across America." The study demonstrated that homeschoolers, on the average, out-performed their counterparts in the public schools by 30 to 37 percentile points in all subjects. A significant finding when analyzing the data for 8th graders was the evidence that homeschoolers who are homeschooled two or more years score substantially higher than students who have been homeschooled one year or less. The new homeschoolers were scoring on the average in the 59th percentile compared to students homeschooled the last two or more years who scored between 86th and 92nd percentile.



and...

Quote:
Another important finding of Strengths of Their Own was that the race of the student does not make any difference. There was no significant difference between minority and white homeschooled students. For example, in grades K-12, both white and minority students scored, on the average, in the 87th percentile. In math, whites scored in the 82nd percentile while minorities scored in the 77th percentile. In the public schools, however, there is a sharp contrast. White public school eighth grade students, nationally scored the 58th percentile in math and the 57th percentile in reading. Black eighth grade students, on the other hand, scored on the average at the 24th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading. Hispanics scored at the 29th percentile in math and the 28th percentile in reading.




Maybe *you* should have spent some time on google first? Just a thought...
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#83 Mar 12 2008 at 2:11 PM Rating: Good
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Yeah, way to cite the "Home School Legal Defense Association" as an unbiased source.

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#84 Mar 12 2008 at 2:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Relevant quotes:


When do these start?

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#85 Mar 12 2008 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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I think technology will eventually make this more of moot issue. Currently there are standardized testing centers across the country where you can pay a fee and take various standardized tests on a computer monitored by the staff. Everything from the CPA exam to ACT and other tests are offered through theses centers. It would not be hard for states to develop standardized tests for these type of centers and require home school parents to take their children there to pass the tests for each grade and each subject. This way states can ensure that the basics are taught at home, but parents can teach their children at the pace they want.
#86Smasharoo, Posted: Mar 12 2008 at 2:20 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) [b]
#87 Mar 12 2008 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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It would not be hard for states to develop standardized tests for these type of centers and require home school parents to take their children there to pass the tests for each grade and each subject. This way states can ensure that the basics are taught at home, but parents can teach their children at the pace they want.


Good idea, because standardized testing has been shown to be a fantastic measure of the efficacy of school curricula.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#88 Mar 12 2008 at 2:26 PM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, way to cite the "Home School Legal Defense Association" as an unbiased source.



The quotes were from a study. Where else am I to look? I haven't yet found any sites even claiming anything other then that homeschooled students outperform public school students. And yeah, most are going to be advocacy sites, but that's because homeschooling is actually better...

another site

Quote:
On average, homeschoolers scored an average of 1.7 points higher on the ACTs (36 is the max. score) than non-homeschoolers.

On the SAT, out of 1600 points, home schooled students scored an average of 1083, 67 points more than the national average.

In 1997, 13 year-old Rebecca Sealfon was the first home schooled student to win the National Spelling Bee.

In 2000, homeschooler George Thampy, 12, beat 2 other homeschooled students to win the National Spelling Bee, 1 week after coming in second place in the National Geographic Bee.

Limited tests have shown that homeschoolers have above-average social and psychological development through their exposure to many different age groups and other activities to boost their social development



yet another link

Quote:
The evidence that home schooling works for some families (H. Statistics) are in the numbers. The average home schooled 8th grade student performs four grade levels above the national average. One in four home schooled students (24.5%) are enrolled one or more grades above age level. Students who have been home schooled their entire lives have the highest scholastic achievement. In every subject and at every grade level of the ITBS and TAP batteries, home schooled students scored significantly higher than their counterparts in public and private school



I just don't know how anyone can argue against homeschooling in terms of student performance and education quality. Every number runs in the exact opposite direction...
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#89 Mar 12 2008 at 2:28 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
Why would I? I know what I'm talking about and aren't claiming things that are patently false.


Lol...
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#90 Mar 12 2008 at 2:30 PM Rating: Decent
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I just don't know how anyone can argue against homeschooling in terms of student performance and education quality. Every number runs in the exact opposite direction...


Wait a minute, you mean every study conducted by an advocacy group with a self selected sample set ends up scoring above the mean of the entire range of public school scores including children with brain injuries and Down's Syndrome?? The hell you say!

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#91 Mar 12 2008 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol..


It's funny, I agree. We all pretty much lose it laughing any time you link something.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#92 Mar 12 2008 at 4:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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My children grew up in a city known for it's poor schools with very low expectations that anything can improve them. Instead of looking at moving into a area I couldn't afford or home school my girls, I sent them to public school and then spent as much time as I could at their schools helping out in any way I could.

Biggest reason I didn't consider home schooling or a private school over the local school system was that I knew I couldn't provide the services they would need with language skills. Few private school have the level of reading and speech specialists, I knew they would need. Those that do around here expect the state had agree that the local system is unable to provide the level of service a child needs, so will cover their costs and charged $30.000 a year back 15 years ago.

On top of spending time in the schools, I also made sure my children had access to as many books, music, the public library, museums and any other cultural experience I could expose them too. Nothing was censored or made pretty just because they were young. Instead we talked about what we saw and how it made us feel. This was how my parents raised me with an expectation that I learn to think for myself. If I was worry about what they were reading, or the music they listen to, I took the time to read and listen also. Since I watch news and science shows and dislike most sitcoms they know more about the world around them then most people in the USA. Note that I didn't say America since I didn't want to lump the rest of the countries with our lack of education.

Today my girls each will tell you, that they learn far more at home then in school. Sure it would have been nice to have a lot of the material things their friends had, if I had instead put my time into having a career and rarely had time for them. Instead they have something that money couldn't buy them, love and care from a mother who taught them the love of learning and thinking for themselves. Plus how many moms can say their kids actually enjoy taking them to a club or concert with their friends. I can also say many of their stranger friends are folks, that I had met years before, they ever introduce them to me.

edit due to fact I expect to make language and spelling errors and proud of fact that Dyslexic people are know to be smarter then kids that do well in normal classroom.

Edited, Mar 12th 2008 8:15pm by ElneClare
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#93 Mar 12 2008 at 4:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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He could at least use google scholar for ****'s sake, it's one extra click. Even if what you're linking does relate in a round about way to an actual peer reviewed study, when you're linking to a freshman sociology class project that uses home schooling advocacy groups as one of a whole six works cited, it doesn't exactly lend credibility to your point of view.

Nexa
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#94 Mar 12 2008 at 4:23 PM Rating: Decent
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He could at least use google scholar for @#%^'s sake, it's one extra click. Even if what you're linking does relate in a round about way to an actual peer reviewed study, when you're linking to a freshman sociology class project that uses home schooling advocacy groups as one of a whole six works cited, it doesn't exactly lend credibility to your point of view.


Don't be silly, it has equal weight as anything else. "One study says this, one says that, the truth must be in the middle".

Ahahahahahaha. I need 100 delicious cigarettes.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#95 Mar 12 2008 at 4:43 PM Rating: Excellent
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At any rate, I'm not personally against home schooling, I just don't see any reason that it can't require some sort of licensing like day care facilities or anything else. That said, I think some interaction between home schooled students and some authority figure, be it a local public school teacher or someone else once a month would be a good idea, just to make sure all is well. I'm not with Smash in that I think people should be denied the right to home school their kids for the greater good of society or what have you, since it's been shown in numerous studies that home schooled children are disproportionately more active in a civic sense, a much larger percentage vote, volunteer, etc. I just think that the current set up is far to vulnerable to abuse, neglect, and the spread of misinformation.

And no, I don't think that every parent that wants to home school their kids needs to have a teacher's certification, but there should be "something" that proves them capable of teaching at the grade level of their children. Since most will insist that their children are far above the public school grade level that their age would dictate, this shouldn't be a problem.

Nexa
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#96 Mar 12 2008 at 4:55 PM Rating: Default
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since it's been shown in numerous studies that home schooled children are disproportionately more active in a civic sense, a much larger percentage vote, volunteer, etc.


More active than whom? Because unless it's more active than kids with stay at home parents who go to public schools it's pretty ******* useless. Gee, home schooled kids are more likely to volunteer than kids who get bused to empty houses? Useful.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#97 Mar 12 2008 at 4:57 PM Rating: Good
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You're grasping at straws there Smash...


I could not find a single site that supports your argument. Every single one that mentioned the relative performance of kids said that homeschooled kids statistically outperformed public school kids.


Um... But you're free to live in your own fantasy world on this one if you want...
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#98 Mar 12 2008 at 4:59 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:

since it's been shown in numerous studies that home schooled children are disproportionately more active in a civic sense, a much larger percentage vote, volunteer, etc.


More active than whom? Because unless it's more active than kids with stay at home parents who go to public schools it's pretty @#%^ing useless. Gee, home schooled kids are more likely to volunteer than kids who get bused to empty houses? Useful.



Sorry, I meant later in life, after graduation. Previously home schooled adults have been shown to volunteer, be active politically, etc, than previously publicly schooled adults. Most other things are about the same. Of course, this is of those surveyed, which, as I've mentioned in my concern before, are going to be the ones that aren't being schooled by crazy shut ins (who are surely the minority, but there you have it).

Nexa
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#99 Mar 12 2008 at 5:01 PM Rating: Good
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Nexa wrote:
He could at least use google scholar for @#%^'s sake, it's one extra click. Even if what you're linking does relate in a round about way to an actual peer reviewed study, when you're linking to a freshman sociology class project that uses home schooling advocacy groups as one of a whole six works cited, it doesn't exactly lend credibility to your point of view.

Nexa


None of which negates the fact that I'm right.

Do your own damn research if you think I'm wrong. C'mon. You know I'm right. Smash knows I'm right. Every single person reading this thread knows I'm right. Yet you still refuse to acknowledge it...


Grow up people!
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#100 Mar 12 2008 at 5:06 PM Rating: Default
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I could not find a single site that supports your argument. Every single one that mentioned the relative performance of kids said that homeschooled kids statistically outperformed public school kids.


Wow, I'm shocked. You only found sites that supported your argument, how shocking.


Do your own damn research if you think I'm wrong. C'mon. You know I'm right. Smash knows I'm right. Every single person reading this thread knows I'm right. Yet you still refuse to acknowledge it...


Haha. No. I'm sure in Gbajidreamland it seems that way, but really, the fact that homeschooling is popular on the internet doesn't make you right any more than it makes Ron Paul the GOP nominee.

As usual, you've made an unfounded assertion based on nothing, it's not other people's responsibility to prove it wrong somehow. It's your job to support it.

The default position is that you're lying. It's become that way based on years of your behavior. It's not my fault.


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#101 Mar 12 2008 at 5:09 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:


I could not find a single site that supports your argument. Every single one that mentioned the relative performance of kids said that homeschooled kids statistically outperformed public school kids.


Wow, I'm shocked. You only found sites that supported your argument, how shocking.


Yes. Many of them.

How many have you found supporting your argument Smash?
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