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#1 Mar 11 2008 at 3:08 PM Rating: Good
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I went to both public and private schools and home schooling wasn't quite an option for me. But nowadays, it has become common for children to be home schooled. But when I read about how in California a court ruling may jeopardize the home schooling system, I just wonder how thorough home schooling is. I think most parents that are home schooling their children take their duties seriously, and some of these home schooled children have gone on to win the national spelling be and other scholastic competitions. But I wonder about some of these other parents that home school their children and these children maybe do not get an education. And there is the point that some abusive parents may take advantage of this system to further control and abuse their families.

The California Education Code requires that if a child is to be home schooled, the parent has file with California paperwork establishing their home as a private school, hire credentialed tutors or enroll their children in independent study programs run by charter or private schools or public school districts while still teaching at home. I just don't know how much oversight is being given to this area.


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The case began as a child welfare dispute in Los Angeles County. Phillip Long, a father of eight, faced allegations from one of his children of "physical and emotional mistreatment," according to court documents. While taught at home by their high school-educated mother, the children were registered at the private Sunland Christian School, which periodically monitored their progress but didn't actually instruct the children. Many California home schoolers follow such an arrangement, officials and advocates say.

Attorneys appointed to represent two of the family's youngest children asked a juvenile court to require that the pair, ages 7 and 9, attend school outside the home so adults could monitor them for signs of abuse.

"Our concern was the kids' safety," says Leslie Heimov of the Children's Law Center of Los Angeles. "There's a big difference between a social worker visiting once a month and (what) a teacher might be able to see on a daily basis."

A judge rejected that request, so attorneys appealed to the higher court, which ruled on Feb. 28 that enrollment in Sunland was a "ruse" that allowed the children to be taught at home "by a non-credentialed parent."

The appeals court ruled that the arrangement with Sunland was inadequate because the school "was willing to participate in the deprivation of the children's right to a legal education." It also ruled that Long and his wife couldn't claim to be home schooling their children for religious reasons. They had cited a 1972 case involving Amish families, but the court said that case allowed families to home school based not on "personal preferences," but on "a fundamental belief that salvation requires life in a church community separate and apart from the world and worldly influence."

Pacific Justice Institute president Brad Dacus calls the ruling "an extreme position," adding, "We're confident the California State Supreme Court will not agree with (it)."

Schwarzenegger said in a statement Friday: "Every California child deserves a quality education, and parents should have the right to decide what's best for their children. -- This outrageous ruling must be overturned, and if the courts don't protect parents' rights, then as elected officials, we will."
#2 Mar 11 2008 at 3:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Public school should be mandatory, for all children. Private school/Home schooling should be legal only as a supplement to 35 hours of public school per week.



Edited, Mar 11th 2008 7:11pm by Smasharoo
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#3 Mar 11 2008 at 3:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Public school should be mandatory, for all children. Private school/Home schooling should be legal only as a supplement to 35 hours of public school per week.


I see where you're going with this, but the in between time for the upping of standards would be hugely detrimental to some children, don't you think?

Nexa
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#4Smasharoo, Posted: Mar 11 2008 at 3:14 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) but the in between time for the upping of standards would be hugely detrimental to some children, don't you think?
#5 Mar 11 2008 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
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Thumbelyna wrote:
I think most parents that are home schooling their children take their duties seriously
I think you're as wrong as wrong can be.
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#6 Mar 11 2008 at 3:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
but the in between time for the upping of standards would be hugely detrimental to some children, don't you think?

Maybe I'm all hopped up on Nicorette, but I don't understand what this means?


Well I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're for a public school requirement due to the discrepancy in quality between public and private schools and therefore the difference in educational quality for rich versus poor students, and requiring public education would make it in the best interests of the wealthy to up the standards and invest more money in education, which they don't want to do now due to the fact that they just send *their* kids to private school anyway. If that's not what you're going for, disregard. If it is, don't you think that the children that are sent to private schools on scholarship because they are particularly gifted and get nothing from public schools would be "left behind" haha, in the transitional time between when public schools are actually brought up to a reasonable level of quality across the board?

I'm hopped up on nicorette too ya know, so don't mind the run on sentences.

Nexa
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#7 Mar 11 2008 at 3:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Well I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that you're for a public school requirement due to the discrepancy in quality between public and private schools and therefore the difference in educational quality for rich versus poor students, and requiring public education would make it in the best interests of the wealthy to up the standards and invest more money in education, which they don't want to do now due to the fact that they just send *their* kids to private school anyway. If that's not what you're going for, disregard. If it is, don't you think that the children that are sent to private schools on scholarship because they are particularly gifted and get nothing from public schools would be "left behind" haha, in the transitional time between when public schools are actually brought up to a reasonable level of quality across the board?


Not particularly. I think they'd get scholarships to weekend schools or whatever took the place of Choate and Exeter. My point is less about class inequities, as rich people will just have rich public schools in rich towns, as they do now, and poor people will have ******** schools in inner cities, as they do now, and more about exposing children to diversity and freeish exchange of ideas. Allowing children to legally be raised and educated that storks bring babies and black people have tails is close to child abuse.

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#8 Mar 11 2008 at 3:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
Public school should be mandatory, for all children. Private school/Home schooling should be legal only as a supplement to 35 hours of public school per week.



Edited, Mar 11th 2008 7:11pm by Smasharoo

So forced education run by the government with the parents not allowed an option to educate their children in outside schools instead of these government schools, that sounds like something Hitler would espouse. People should be free to choose where to educate their children, and the government should not get involved unless the parents have been shown to ***** that up, ie dropping the little ones off in the woods everyday and telling them the forest will teach them.


Edited, Mar 11th 2008 7:53pm by fhrugby
#9 Mar 11 2008 at 4:10 PM Rating: Decent
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So forced education run by the government with the parents not allowed an option to educate their children in outside schools instead of these government schools, that sounds like something Hitler would espouse.


No it sounds like what a responsible society that didn't treat children as pieces of property owned by their parents would do.


People should be free to choose where to educate their children, and the government should not get involved unless the parents have been shown to ***** that up, ie dropping the little ones off in the woods everyday and telling them the forest will teach them.


No, they shouldn't. Just like they shouldn't be able to **** their own children unless they're shown not to use lube. They're people, not objects owned by adults. Schooling should be required just as feeding them is required.

The fact that you don't understand my point of view at all shouldn't be a surprise to anyone, the fact that you'd moronically invoke fascism over a law that's less restrictive than virtually any other is a surprise.

I can't imagine anyone thought you quite that stupid.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#10 Mar 11 2008 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Meh, I don't care one way or the other, really. I think that home schooling a child doesn't do them any favors as far as their social development and interaction goes, but I don't think it's necessarily detrimental if the kid has extenuating circumstances and the parent puts in the necessary effort.
#11Smasharoo, Posted: Mar 11 2008 at 4:27 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) [b]
#12 Mar 11 2008 at 4:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
home schooled children are in the vast majority, being taught fundamentalist Christian bigotry by parents expressly seeking to prevent them from exposure to outside ideas. That's something that does bother me to the point of caring somewhat.
Not that I'm for fundamentalist Christian bigotry, but I don't see a reliable way of picking out the bad apples and leaving everyone else be. Whenever you start judging anyone's parenting based simply on the values they're choosing to pass on to their kids, it's a sticky wicket.
#13 Mar 11 2008 at 5:04 PM Rating: Default
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Not that I'm for fundamentalist Christian bigotry, but I don't see a reliable way of picking out the bad apples and leaving everyone else be.


When has that ever in the history of the world stopped a law from being passed?

I don't see the difficulty in requiring children to attend school. If you want to teach them that the sky is orange and that what school teaches them is wrong, go for it. I'm not for mandating what people are allowed to teach their children, I'm for mandating that children are exposed to language and mathematics and history and critical thinking skills.

The other option is to somehow certify home schooling which is ludicrous from a logistics standpoint and will be end run constantly as it is now in areas that require such.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#14 Mar 11 2008 at 5:24 PM Rating: Decent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:
home schooled children are in the vast majority, being taught fundamentalist Christian bigotry by parents expressly seeking to prevent them from exposure to outside ideas. That's something that does bother me to the point of caring somewhat.
Not that I'm for fundamentalist Christian bigotry, but I don't see a reliable way of picking out the bad apples and leaving everyone else be. Whenever you start judging anyone's parenting based simply on the values they're choosing to pass on to their kids, it's a sticky wicket.
My Sis basically 'home-schooled all five of her kids, in a set-up that started with four other families (all from her church and it eventually grew into a little school as two of the moms were certified teachers). She did it basically for the reasons Smash stated above. Her kids, mostly grown now (they have a whole string of um from 8 to 23 atm), are normal, intelligent and productive...one did go off to a Christian college but two others are at State U's) but they're definetly deeply religous and convicted to the families 'ideals'.

Still, it bugs me, it's always bugged me, and it's always bugged me that it bugs me. I censored (or guided..Smiley: wink) my kids reading, viewing, playing stuff from sex and violence, so it's probably hypocritical of me to think that her censoring her kids from Harry Potter, Halloween and Micheal Jackson was any more or less 'right' than mine.

Bring back truancy officers and make them dam kids go to school.






Edited, Mar 12th 2008 3:32am by Elinda
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#15 Mar 11 2008 at 5:31 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

I'm for mandating that children are exposed to language and mathematics and history and critical thinking skills.

Why can't the children learn these subjects in a private school like so many do now, with the state requiring these subjects for an accredited diploma and requiring standardized state tests in these subjects. Why require all students only go to public schools? I am not sending my kid to NYC public high school, even with improvements over the last 15 years they are still too dangerous. I would hate to be mandated to sending my kid one of these places and not have the choice to send him to a private school if I determine they are better.
#16 Mar 11 2008 at 5:36 PM Rating: Decent
Thumbelyna wrote:
But I wonder about some of these other parents that home school their children and these children maybe do not get an education. And there is the point that some abusive parents may take advantage of this system to further control and abuse their families.


That would be my main concern about home schooling as well. Some people have too extreme of ideals, and think that their way is exclusively better than the rest. But if you consider the fact that the public school system isn't any better at teaching our children, you have to wonder which would be better for your child. But then you gotta factor in the social disadvantages that Home Schooled children endure as a result of a lack of Public/Private schoolings interaction with other children their age.

But most abusive parents don't care where their children go to school. They control and manipulate their families so bad, that they can get away with their continued abuse. Take it from someone who grew up with a very abusive father and went to public schools his whole life, abusive parents think they can get away with it. You only have to worry about abuse in Home Schooling, when the parent is so controlling that they won't let the child interact with any aspect of society at large. Because that would mean the abusive parent is both weak and afraid. Otherwise you can't target Home Schooled children as the abusive families private arena, and exclude the other areas of schooling.

I honestly think that if there is an increased rise in Home Schooling, it's because alot of America has become so fed up with the Public School systems lack of qaulity education, that they have taken matters into their own hands. Wiether it has produced better outcomes, is something that is debateable. I have grown up with others my age that were home schooled, and some came out smart and some came out completely clueless.

Only having a High School diploma doesn't automatically make you dumb, and having a college degree doesn't automatically make you intelligent. Too many intelligent people can't get into college do to a number of factors, or they just don't want to go. And too many idiots get into college, get degrees, and still wouldn't be able to tell you what the sqaure root of 4 is. Being booksmart doesn't make you intelligent, and most often then not means that you infact lack even common knowledge facts.

Let parents decide what the best route is for their children. Going one way over the other doesn't automatically gaurantee success, too many factors have to be input into the situation.
#17 Mar 11 2008 at 5:41 PM Rating: Decent
fhrugby the Wise wrote:
People should be free to choose where to educate their children, and the government should not get involved unless the parents have been shown to ***** that up, ie dropping the little ones off in the woods everyday and telling them the forest will teach them.


That'd be a vast improvement over some of the school systems in the US, lol.

Seriously, I'm not joking.

Edited, Mar 11th 2008 7:42pm by Nuhnisgodly
#18 Mar 11 2008 at 5:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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*cough*

Smash is a socialist. If there's a path that replaces a private process with one run by the government, it's a cinch which one he'll choose. And not just for him, of course. He'll make that choice for your children too!

Cause that's just the way he rolls...
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#19 Mar 11 2008 at 5:45 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
*cough*

Smash is a socialist. If there's a path that replaces a private process with one run by the government, it's a cinch which one he'll choose. And not just for him, of course. He'll make that choice for your children too!

Cause that's just the way he rolls...


If we have a son, he's making me name him Harrison Bergeron, I swear to God.

Nexa
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#20Smasharoo, Posted: Mar 11 2008 at 5:47 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) [b]
#21 Mar 11 2008 at 5:49 PM Rating: Default
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Smash is a socialist. If there's a path that replaces a private process with one run by the government, it's a cinch which one he'll choose. And not just for him, of course. He'll make that choice for your children too!

Cause that's just the way he rolls...


Yup. The good of the whole is more important than the benefit to the ******* middle class who doesn't realize how oppressed it is because it's so easily manipulated. The petit-Gbajouise if you will.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#22 Mar 11 2008 at 5:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
The good of the whole is more important than the benefit to the @#%^ middle class who doesn't realize how oppressed it is because it's so easily manipulated.
Oppression is comfy. Smiley: smile
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#23 Mar 11 2008 at 6:00 PM Rating: Good
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More accurately:

"The good of the whole is more important then the rights of the individual".


On the issue at hand, the law is blatantly unconstitutional. It's simply not the governments job to tell parents how they should educate their children. If a parent wants to have their child be a total failure, then that's their right.

If you let those failures fail, then people stop making those mistakes. Trying to correct the problem with a big government solution only enforces that failure on us all.

The vast majority of home schooled kids do better statistically then those educated in public schools. The real reason behind this has nothing to do with helping ensure kids get a better education. It's about pumping money from the taxpayer to the government trough and ultimately to the unions and special interests involved in the public education system.

In California, public schools get their funding via headcount. Home schooling cuts into that headcount. And that can't be allowed...
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#24 Mar 11 2008 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
More accurately:

"The good of the whole is more important then the rights of the individual".


On the issue at hand, the law is blatantly unconstitutional. It's simply not the governments job to tell parents how they should educate their children. If a parent wants to have their child be a total failure, then that's their right.

If you let those failures fail, then people stop making those mistakes. Trying to correct the problem with a big government solution only enforces that failure on us all.

The vast majority of home schooled kids do better statistically then those educated in public schools. The real reason behind this has nothing to do with helping ensure kids get a better education. It's about pumping money from the taxpayer to the government trough and ultimately to the unions and special interests involved in the public education system.

In California, public schools get their funding via headcount. Home schooling cuts into that headcount. And that can't be allowed...


That's only true if you don't count children as individuals, but as property. If you're going that route, people should be able to beat their property and stop feeding it if they want. If the children are individuals, then where are their rights?

If they're not individuals, I say abortion til 18 is on the way! Woot! I still have time!

Nexa
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#25Smasharoo, Posted: Mar 11 2008 at 6:04 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) [b]
#26 Mar 11 2008 at 6:06 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
More accurately:

The vast majority of home schooled kids do better statistically then those educated in public schools.
Cite please. I've not found much in the way of statistics on the acedemic achievment of home-schooled.
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