Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Is the rise in mental illness really linked to house prices?Follow

#1 Feb 04 2008 at 6:52 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
15,952 posts
Linky.

Yes, yes, tl:dr. But if you can be bothered, I think he raises some interesting issues and ideas. Not sure I agree with them all.

Bob Ellis, in classroom mode:

Quote:
With world recession looming, the US is fixing things by bringing interest rates down. Australia is fixing things by putting interest rates up. Discuss.

With housing costs one third (probably) of what they are in America, China's economy is taking over the world. Discuss.

My father Keith Ellis bought a seaside block of land for £10 in 1946 that is now worth $795,000. This price rise is good for everyone. Discuss.

Normal inflation over the past sixty years would have made the price four hundred and fifty dollars by now, but it's nearly two thousand times that much -and this price rise is good for everyone. Discuss.

When are economists going to open their eyes and acknowledge the shadowy elephant in the room, which is housing prices? Most Australian breadwinners are each week shovelling banknotes into the furnace of their mortgage, money that might otherwise fund a pleasant lifestyle and no economist thinks there is an alternative to this. Why?

If a hovel in Sydney's beachside suburb, Coogee, with a backyard cost $180,000 instead of $880,000, many, many people would be happier, better fed, better educated, better clothed, less overworked, less stressed and see more of their children, who then wouldn't grow up drug addicts. Why can't this be arranged?

Every day we waste on this millionairist fantasy of higher and higher house prices is one more day that China pulls ahead of us economically. Why keep doing it? Why keep taking daily spoonfuls of economic cyanide in this fruitless, ruinous way? Housing prices are killing our civilisation, turning us into a Third World country like a quarter of the US, and we know it, we actually know it. How do we fix things before it's too late?

Well, it's not easy; we have to do some thinking here, some Big Picture thinking and some careful counting. We have to realise that 96 per cent of Australians either want to bring house prices down, or they want it for their children; and we have to realise the other four per cent, who are bankers, real estate agents or grannies maddened by dreams of gold, will not swing an election any more. And we have to consider, at least consider, some of the following options.

(1) That we pass laws amending the constitution that give back to the States a right they had once, to control rents. Then pass a law in New South Wales that says no dwelling with a backyard can be rented for more than five hundred dollars a week.

This would force rents down everywhere, and house prices down. If the current rule of thumb prevails, no Sydney mansion in Point Piper would cost more than $500,000 after a while, and your average hovel in Coogee with a backyard, probably, no more than $120,000. Wouldn't that be nice.

(2) That we put the GST up to 11 per cent and with the extra money establish a State Bank that lends at five per cent, and only five per cent, unvaryingly, to first home buyers, couples married for three years, or couples with at least one child, or, yes, same-sex couples who have been together for three years, up to $200,000 and no more.

This would force other banks into similar offers or out of business. It would mean they didn't make record profits any more, just big ones, and their CEOs might get less than $5m a year. Tough.

(3) Or that we nationalise land, as the Chifley minister Eddie Ward always wanted to do. Declare all land at point of sale to be government-owned, and rented thereafter to the buyer of the house on top of it at, say, $500 a year, for the land under the Coogee hovel, or $1,500 a year for the land under the Point Piper Mansion. This would bring their respective prices down to $175,000 and $500,000, money that I and Malcolm Turnbull could easily afford. Or I think it would.

If I'm wrong, I'm wrong. If what I'm saying is cranky, innumerate and phantasmal and stupid, I'm sorry. But if we don't do something about this carcinoma of addictive debt, this boundless addiction to comfortable dwellings, we're in terminal trouble as an economy and as a civilisation. I mean, we limit wage rises because we fear what could happen to our economy if we didn't. Why don't we limit house prices for the very same reason? And why don't we find out a way to do it?

Labor floated an idea last year that said the government might pay forty percent of the price of a newlywed couple's first house, and when they sold it, get back 40 per cent of what they sold it for. It's a really good idea I think but it doesn't ultimately solve the central problem - that house prices are too high, and they must come down.

Regulatory watchdogs keep an eye on petrol prices and grocery prices, why not house prices? Vast bureaucracies are set up to keep the cost of health care down, because health care is an eternal human need. A house, a dwelling, is an eternal human need.

There are precedents for this kind of thing. After WWII the Chifley government bought up land and put fibro cottages on it and, for very low rents, let families live in them, and later on for very low prices buy them. The baby boom generation came out of such dwellings, educated themselves and prospered.

Without such dwellings, they would never have been born. Because of such dwellings the cost of houses across Australia was wonderfully affordable, everywhere. Because Government got into the housing business and made some wise decisions. Ask anyone over 50 if this is so.

And it's because there are no such dwellings now, small houses with small gardens and tiny lawns and microscopic rents, it's because of this the baby boomers' grandchildren are not, or not any longer, being born.

If this is all to the good I want to know why. We're working longer hours. We're in constant mortgage stress. We hardly see our children. Children hardly see their mothers. They grow up angry, neglected, suicidal, disillusioned. If that hovel in Coogee cost $120,000, this would not be so.

The purpose of an economy is not to pay a CEO $25m a year for impoverishing and wrecking the emotional health of every second suburban Australian breadwinner or their spouse. That's not what an economy is for. An economy like that is a failed economy. A bankrupt economy. A morally bankrupt economy.

It's an economy like the one America has now: one quarter of it Third World, one half of it stressed and barely coping, divorced, face-lifted, working a second job to pay the alimony, one quarter of it millionairist or billionairist, smug and power-crazed and swindling anyone it can.

Unless house prices are fixed, we'll go that way too, into terminal, debt-driven frenzy. And China, which has lower house prices and therefore lower wages, will take over the world; buy up all our houses and rent them back to us.

Like Global Warming, it has to be sorted soon.

Or we're all in very, very big trouble.

Discuss.


Edited, Feb 4th 2008 9:57am by Aripyanfar
#2 Feb 04 2008 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
Scholar
****
4,593 posts
Housing prices really are quite ridiculous. There's not much to a house, and it's not like we're running out of land in Canada. A team can build a house in 2 days up here. That house could go for 500k in some areas, it cost MAYBE 40-50k in materials and labour. The bulk of the cost is the land, which isn't exactly in short supply. It's a stupid system that values land so highly, land should be damn near free.
#3 Feb 04 2008 at 7:41 AM Rating: Excellent
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
******
30,106 posts
Quote:

It's an economy like the one America has now: one quarter of it Third World, one half of it stressed and barely coping, divorced, face-lifted, working a second job to pay the alimony, one quarter of it millionairist or billionairist, smug and power-crazed and swindling anyone it can.


If it were America, it would be less than 1/4 millionarist, but more like 1/10 or right now, 1% owning more than 50% of the wealth. And the fact that being an Xer means I'm part of the first downwardly mobile generation in American History. Housing is a major issue in the Boston area--the costs are appalling and many people, families especially, are priced out of the market and as a result, condos are vacant and the population has decreased. It is a morally bankrupt economy--we share that with this new emerging Australian situation, where we have traded fiscal responsibility for some mythic dream that deregulation and laissez faire economics have ever created a fair and prosperous society for the bottom three quintiles.
____________________________
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#4 Feb 04 2008 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
*****
14,454 posts
He has a point, and I think some of his ideas are good, but will never happen. I think a big part of the problem, at least in the US, is that the baby boomers and subsequent generations have a fairly selfish attitude. Everyone thinks everything is entitled to them. Who cares if I go into major debt? I have to have that 4 BR house with a sauna, mudroom, and 3,000 sq ft of living! Not that most people get to enjoy the luxury items they buy. They're too busy working their *** off in the office to pay for them. And I agree that a lot of children are losing family time due to this. Too many times mom and dad have to go into the office on the weekends, or work so late by the time they get home the kids are spent themselves and ready for bed. Material love has then become the way to "make up" for time and attention, thus further bringing people and family into debt.

Housing prices skyrocketed, builders went crazy, at least in Mass, and now that the bubble has popped, there's too many houses and not enough people who can afford them. It's a big reason why we moved south. Things are still expensive, but not nearly as insane as the north east, and the ability to afford what we have with more ease, and the warm weather, gives us a lot more time to be a family. We don't need the huge house to feel complete.

I think the majority of Americans need to take a step back and see what they really need in order to be happy. I think if people really did this, and looked at how good we already have it instead of striving to keep up with the Joneses, it would at least help in bringing down the cost of homes. Because most people wouldnt necessarily be going for the mansions, and just try to get what they need. It would at least help
#5 Feb 04 2008 at 9:07 AM Rating: Excellent
****
8,619 posts
Just curious but what do you plan to say to the people with a huge morgage on a house when you artificially remove over half the value of thier home?

What will you say to the people who have invested all thier earnings into a massive house so they can downsize when they retire and live off the leftover money?

I own two houses, one worth £130,000, one worth £175,000 my morgage is £52,000. I plan to sell both on leaving the Military and buy one with no morgage at all. how do you think i would feel if the govenment came along and said "Sorry Mr Tarv, but those two houses you own are now only worth £30,000 each" is the govenment going to re-emburse me the £240,000?

What do you propose to do with the people who would suddenly find themselves hugely in negative equity? Is the govenment goping to write off thier debt?

Frankly this is a blindingly stupid idea that not only doesn't deal with the primary issue behind the lack of affordable housing (Lack of homes being built) it penalises the people who actually did the right thing and got on the property ladder when thier friends where going on 4 holidays a year.

#6 Feb 04 2008 at 9:13 AM Rating: Good
How are you going to artificially lower the cost of desirable property? If you artificially decide that some waterfront property is now only $125,000 who gets to buy it? The first person to put in the bid or the senator's son? It is called supply and demand. When demand drops the prices will (and are) drop.

--DK
#7 Feb 04 2008 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
******
30,106 posts
Quote:
Frankly this is a blindingly stupid idea that not only doesn't deal with the primary issue behind the lack of affordable housing (Lack of homes being built) it penalises the people who actually did the right thing and got on the property ladder when thier friends where going on 4 holidays a year.


I understand your desire to not be penalized. This is not why there is a housing crisis in the US (i'm not as familiar with the UK). First of all, there doesn't need to be more single family housing in suburban areas, adding to the urban sprawl and creating environmental problems. We'd be better off with people owning more condos in more densely populated areas to reduce impact. Lack of affordable housing in a few areas is a matter of too little housing in a few areas but it's more of an issue that there is little regulation of the economy, leading to boom cities with skyrocketing prices and cities with long-term structural poverty, where housing remains vacant. Most of it is because our society has really abandoned a more balanced economy--with manufacturing, small scale farming, etc. etc. for a service oriented economy with some high tech industries. The US has a really disempowered workforce where we work harder, longer hours for less pay statistically during the last few decades.

Most Americans don't go on four holidays a year and while people carry consumer debt, choosing between that and housing is an option for the middle couple of quintiles (or more like the top of the third and fourth quintile) whereas there is a large population that will never afford housing, despite their efforts and will be blamed by the elite for not having the right jobs, b/c the people in power benefit from blaming the powerless more than looking at the structural problems in the economy.



Edited, Feb 4th 2008 12:22pm by Annabella
____________________________
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#8 Feb 04 2008 at 9:29 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
There's no lack of housing in the US. There may be a lack of affordable housing caused by the tightening of the mortgage market combined with a slow draw-down from the artificially inflated market of 2003-2006 but there's no lack of four walls and roofs. If anything, there's a surplus as shown by the very soft existing home market and the virtual stop in new home construction. However, developers aren't going to keep building new homes until they go down to $45,000 each; they'll just cease construction until demand puts the prices back to where they want them. Developers who tried to keep building in the last few years are going bankrupt for their efforts.

Unfortunately, there's nothing simple about it. For instance, you can still buy a nice home for "fairly cheap" in the Chicago exurbs (i.e. out in God's corn country) but, if you work in the city or even the collar counties, you're looking at a 2+ hour commute twice a day. Is it worth it? You tell me.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#9 Feb 04 2008 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
****
8,619 posts
I admit i have no knowlage of the US housing market but my point still stands, would the US govenment honestly have the ability or even the will to pay the current house prices to all those with morgages to reset the system?

Because make no mistake with the lawsuit culture you have over there they would have no choise but to do so.

Seriously can you see Jim Bob Texan letting the govenment halve the value of his house overnight and not pay off the $xxx bucks he owes? it would make 9/11 look like a picnic.
#10 Feb 04 2008 at 10:41 AM Rating: Decent
Skelly Poker Since 2008
*****
16,781 posts
The market will, and should be allowed to set the price of a house. If Government is gonna jump into this quagmire, and they really should at this point, they should get back to regulating the lending instituations.

If HousebuyerX cant get a loan to buy a billion dollar house, someone will offer him one for less.





Edited, Feb 4th 2008 7:41pm by Elinda
____________________________
Alma wrote:
I lost my post
#11 Feb 04 2008 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Baron von tarv wrote:
I admit i have no knowlage of the US housing market but my point still stands, would the US govenment honestly have the ability or even the will to pay the current house prices to all those with morgages to reset the system?
I'm not advocating the government changing housing costs. I'm just pointing out that there's no lack of housing from a structural standpoint.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#12 Feb 04 2008 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
It will even itself out in a few years. It's a well known fact that we're approaching rock-bottom. It's a great time to be in if you're looking to buy a house; if you're selling well....

But consider what will happen when it does hit bottom. Interest rates of 2% fixed for 30 years is a pretty good incentive to buy a house. Those low interest rates will enable people who were previously unable to buy a home get into a house they can actually afford.

From a selling aspect, I see it a lot like the stock market. We're in a recession right now, but rather than panic and dump my house for a loss, I'll just sit tight for a few years until the housing market shifts back to the seller's advantage.
#13 Feb 04 2008 at 1:47 PM Rating: Decent
**
418 posts
In several ways, at least in the U.S., the government is already in the housing market exerting influence. While they probably can't arbitrarily set land or home prices, the can make changes.

Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac, on instructions from Congress, decide what will be a "conforming" loan and what will be sub-prime. By switching from the current one-size-fits-all to a regional approach, upper-income buyers in high-cost neighborhoods could avoid costly Jumbo loans.

The tax deduction for mortgage interest encourages people to borrow against the value of their home, and to purchase the largest home they can afford. By phasing the mortgage tax deduction out over the next decade, home buyers would have to face the true cost of owning a home versus renting.

Financial disclosure, conflict of interest, the Fair Credit Act, and truth-in-lending laws all effect how the industry operates. When I get a credit card offer in the mail, all of the fees, interest rates, penalty rates, and terms are outlined in a single easy to read chart. We should have a similar requirement for mortgage loans.

Why, in the midst of the subprime meltdown, do I still get offers for toxic negative-amortization loans on an almost daily basis?

#14 Feb 04 2008 at 8:29 PM Rating: Good
You can buy a nice house for 500K in the Atlanta suburbs. You can buy the same house for 200K here in Athens, and commute the hour to the Atlanta suburbs. And the same house in midtown ATL would cost you a cool million.

Hell, that's what most of my friends do.

Even here in Athens, our apartment on the east side is dirt dirt cheap (3 BR 2 BA for $700), and the same apartment on the other side of town by the mall would be twice as much.

The motto of real estate is: Location, location, location.

My fiance and I have agreed we need nothing bigger than a 2 BR condo to be happy. 1K square feet of space max for us.
#15 Feb 04 2008 at 9:12 PM Rating: Decent
Australia sucks :(
I blame Keating for everything!
#16 Feb 04 2008 at 9:21 PM Rating: Good
Where I live in Tampa Bay, FL housing is a real issue. Namely because costs are higher in Florida than most places in the South, but salaries are about the same. So, there are many, many people who are unable to afford their homes or even rent...and I do not even live inside the city of Tampa. It's even worse, there.

Unfortunately, the solution is like many other things- wait for a bottom out and for people to take advantage of the extremely low mortgage prices. Until then, probably a good idea to rent instead of buy, and live within your means.
#17 Feb 05 2008 at 12:10 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Well, I don't know who Bob Ellis is, but he seems like a class A idiot.

So because "costs are high", you bring in the government, seize everyone's property and then rent it back to them? Sheesh!


The costs are exactly what the market will bear. He can wail and moan and gnash his teeth about the size of the number after the dollar sign, but the simple fact is that houses sell for that price because people are both willing to pay that much and *can* pay that much for a house.

Declaring that an economic failure is silly and arbitrary.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 414 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (414)