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Treaty with Iraq...?Follow

#1 Jan 24 2008 at 5:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Well no, a treaty would need to pass through Congress.

This is in reference to the the Declaration of Principles

Quote:


...it also includes a provision that promises to maintain the stability of Iraq's government from "internal and external threats." This sentence is raising alarms for some U.S. lawmakers.

Any such agreement would be considered a treaty by many legal experts. And under the U.S. Constitution, treaties have to be ratified by Congress.

"The declaration of principles would appear to commit the United States to keeping the elected Iraqi government in power against internal threats," says Kenneth Katzman, a Middle East analyst at the Congressional Research Service. "I leave it to the lawyers to determine whether that's the definition of a treaty or not but it certainly seems to be — is going to be — a hefty U.S. commitment to Iraq for a long time."

Such a hefty commitment would be unprecedented in the history of American foreign policy.

Treaty or Agreement?

The administration strenuously denies this is a treaty and has already made it clear that it won't take the issue to Congress.

Instead, administration officials compare the impending U.S.-Iraq military relationship to a "status of forces" agreement. The United States has about 100 of these military relationships with countries around the world.


These international agreements are typically binding from administration to administration unless renegotiated.

Should we be entering into an agreement, perhaps permanent, but at the least long term, that gives us the power and the responsiblity to protect Iraq's government for internal and external threat?

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#2 Jan 24 2008 at 8:26 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:


Should we be entering into an agreement, perhaps permanent, but at the least long term, that gives us the power and the responsibility to protect Iraq's government for internal and external threat?


Yes. We should enter into a treaty with Iraq promising our long term support as these treaties establish a deterrent from aggression and help to secure long lasting stability for our allies. A treaty ratified by congress would be the best deterrent possible. The declaration of principles is a nice start but it is not enough for the long term.
#3 Jan 24 2008 at 8:47 AM Rating: Default
yes, there does need to be a treaty.

however......how this addministraition is going about getting it is par for the coarse in how they have operated since coming to power. a dictatorship. same with renaming prisoners of war to "enemy combatants" to side step the laws and proceedures set down by all of our previous forefathers since the founding of this country.

ANY agreement made with a foreign power needs to have the full support of our ENTIRE government. it needs to go through congress. the legislature needs to make sure it is both in coherance with existing laws in this country and does not violate the constitution of this country.

kind of like the support we gave the nuclear reduction treaty with Russia that this administraition ignored.

and the treaty we signed with the majority of the wold powers concerning the treatment of prisoners of war this addministraition sidestepped.

and the kyoto protocall we signed with most of the industrial powers on this planet this addministraition just.....banished.

the word treason comes to mind. certainly impeachment.

but if half you idiots cant see the writing on the wall, well, we get what we deserve. a country without integrity, respect, or honor. wouldnt our forfathers be so proud of how you have pissed away everything they fought so hard to establish.

***** the constitution. ***** what the people in this country or the world thinks, ***** congress and the legislature. sign a binding agreement with iraq no matter what anyone else thinks.

its how we roll aparently.
#4 Jan 24 2008 at 9:28 AM Rating: Good
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This is not unprecedented. Both Germany and Japan signed such a treaty with us at the end of WW2, both of which laid the groundwork for the military base structures built in both countries and for the "an attack on one is an attack on both" agreements.

The issue that seems to be concerning politicians is whether an outgoing president can put in place a binding agreement that behooves the incoming administration to abide by the rules laid out for them. Obviously, this worries the Democrats since a major plank in many of the candidate's campaigns is that we will leave Iraq as soon as possible upon assuming the mantle of the presidency.

Personally, I think it'd be foolish to depart from the Middle East in a location where military bases would give us a distinct strategic advantage. Much of our force projection and world dominance in the past 65 years has been due to us having a permanent military presence in both Europe and the Far East. Throwing that away for political expediency displays a horrible grasp of historical context and international affairs. We can only hope that those advocating leaving Iraq will discard such promises upon assuming office (if it does happen).

Totem
#5 Jan 24 2008 at 9:40 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
The issue that seems to be concerning politicians is whether an outgoing president can put in place a binding agreement that behooves the incoming administration to abide by the rules laid out for them. Obviously, this worries the Democrats since a major plank in many of the candidate's campaigns is that we will leave Iraq as soon as possible upon assuming the mantle of the presidency.
I think a bigger issue is that the the 'agreement' is being renamed, so it doesn't have to pass through congress.

Quote:
The Senate is expected to consider a bill that would block the president from signing such an agreement with the Iraqi government. If the White House ignores the measures, Delahunt and others say the issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court.



I guess a better question to ask might be; should the executive branch be able to enter into a treaty without approval from at least one other branch of government?



Edited, Jan 24th 2008 6:41pm by Elinda
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#6 Jan 24 2008 at 9:44 AM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
I think a bigger issue is that the the 'agreement' is being renamed, so it doesn't have to pass through congress.

I guess a better question to ask might be; should the executive branch be able to enter into a treaty without approval from at least one other branch of government?

If it isn't named correctly, or more important, doesn't go through Congress, what's to hold the next Administration to uphold it?
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#7 Jan 24 2008 at 9:48 AM Rating: Good
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/shrugs

That too wouldn't be unprecedented. I'm RACKing my brain tryingto think of an example, but I seem to recall that previous presidents have done so.

Regardless, it would be tragic to give up this advantage for the sake of political expediency, but should it be necessary to set it before Democrat controlled Congress and they left this opportunity slip by, it'll be on their heads if and when a crisis blows up and we didn't have the military/diplomatic presence there to immediately deal with it.

Totem
#8 Jan 24 2008 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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Uglysasquatch the Great wrote:
Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
I think a bigger issue is that the the 'agreement' is being renamed, so it doesn't have to pass through congress.

I guess a better question to ask might be; should the executive branch be able to enter into a treaty without approval from at least one other branch of government?

If it isn't named correctly, or more important, doesn't go through Congress, what's to hold the next Administration to uphold it?
Nothing but our reputation. That holds true though if its a Treaty or a 'Declaration of Priciples'.

Maybe the senate will govern...who knows.

Quote:
The Senate is expected to consider a bill that would block the president from signing such an agreement with the Iraqi government. If the White House ignores the measures, Delahunt and others say the issue could go all the way to the Supreme Court.
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#9 Jan 24 2008 at 9:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Nothing but our reputation. That holds true though if its a Treaty or a 'Declaration of Priciples'.
I'm not sure what you think that reputation is right now. Christ, reneging on any thing the current administration sets in place is likely to make them look better.
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#10 Jan 24 2008 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:

Regardless, it would be tragic to give up this advantage for the sake of political expediency, but should it be necessary to set it before Democrat controlled Congress and they left this opportunity slip by, it'll be on their heads if and when a crisis blows up and we didn't have the military/diplomatic presence there to immediately deal with it.

Totem
I'm thinking in the long run it might be more tragic for our leaders to give up on the 'separation of power', but then I never was one much for dictatorship.
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#11 Jan 24 2008 at 10:07 AM Rating: Good
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Pure hyperbole. This hardly qualifies as a dictatorship, nor as the first step on a long slippery slope to Banana Republicism. The question that should be asked is why would Congress oppose such a patently good move? That is a far better question.

Totem
#12 Jan 24 2008 at 10:11 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
Pure hyperbole. This hardly qualifies as a dictatorship, nor as the first step on a long slippery slope to Banana Republicism. The question that should be asked is why would Congress oppose such a patently good move? That is a far better question.

Totem
Well, since they're not being considered we dont' KNOW if they'd oppose it.

An even better question is why would Bush try and circumvent the system (again)?
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#13 Jan 24 2008 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, fair question, E. I'd say that it's because he believes Congress would shoot it down without seriously considering the far reaching results and consequences and is willing to do what he believes is necessary to make it happen.

So, do you believe it would pass Congress?

Totem
#14 Jan 24 2008 at 10:30 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
Ok, fair question, E. I'd say that it's because he believes Congress would shoot it down without seriously considering the far reaching results and consequences and is willing to do what he believes is necessary to make it happen.

So, do you believe it would pass Congress?

Totem
I honestly don't know, but atm, myself and millions of others would find the whole thing much easier to swallow if it had the blessing of the congress. I distrust the Bush administration.
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#15 Jan 24 2008 at 10:33 AM Rating: Good
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Ok, how about do you think is should pass Congress?

Totem
#16 Jan 24 2008 at 10:38 AM Rating: Excellent
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Totem wrote:
Ok, how about do you think is should pass Congress?

Totem
I think the country is still too unstable to enter into a long term agreement with the current government.
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#17 Jan 24 2008 at 10:41 AM Rating: Good
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Alright. Do you believe we should remain in Iraq as long as possible then to cultivate the present Iraqi government's stability and/or give ourselves a strategic advantage in the region?

Totem
#18 Jan 24 2008 at 10:55 AM Rating: Decent
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Totem wrote:
Alright. Do you believe we should remain in Iraq as long as possible then to cultivate the present Iraqi government's stability and/or give ourselves a strategic advantage in the region?

Totem
Well I'm inclined to say we should call it quits, go home and leave them be, but that's not right.

I do think that Iraq is not going to be able to 'cultivate' a sustainable, credible government while the US is there pulling all the strings or even giving the appearance of pulling all the strings.

I would like the peace of mind that the best descisions about our course of action in Iraq are being made. The Bush administration has made some doozy mistakes, and i would think would be welcoming congress to back him up and give credence to his decisions.



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#19 Jan 24 2008 at 11:10 AM Rating: Good
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For what it's worth, I agree that it'd be a far better thing if Bush and Congress were to work out an agreement together because of the preceived legitimacy issues of Bush going it alone- again. But Congress likely taking the stance that we need to extract ourselves as quickly as possible from Iraq because they painted themselves into a political corner on that subject is, in my view, a far riskier position to take.

Vote getting aside, reasoned discussion and a long term plan for Iraq does not appear to be on the Hellbeast's or Obama's agenda. What will be interesting to see is if one of them wins the Oval Office, once they are there if they will reverse their position and come up with reasons to remain in Iraq now that the realities of the presidency are resting soley on their shoulders, campaign promises be damned.

It wouldn't be the first time a newly elected president realized that stump speeches and reality are two entirely different animals.

Totem
#20 Jan 25 2008 at 6:25 AM Rating: Good
Totem wrote:


Vote getting aside, reasoned discussion and a long term plan for Iraq does not appear to be on the Hellbeast's or Obama's agenda. What will be interesting to see is if one of them wins the Oval Office, once they are there if they will reverse their position and come up with reasons to remain in Iraq now that the realities of the presidency are resting soley on their shoulders, campaign promises be damned.


yes, this is my question as well.

I agree we should try to pull out, but doing so right now, or even worse on a time table would be bad for everyone involved especially the Iraq people.

Totem, you asked earlier, i think it was you, if a "treaty" would pass congress right now? i doubt it just for the simple fact that the Dems. are and will do everything in their power to make Bush look worse and worse as we gear up for the next pres. elections. They will do EVERYTHING to block anything the pubs put to vote and vote against anything that Pres. Bush supports.

just look at the fiasco the Dems. created with the latest round of tax cuts.

I for one am sick and tired of the dems and pubs doing what they want and not what the people of this country NEED. on that point, i hope Obama wins even though he holds several things in his campaign i do not agree with, i do think if he is elected it will send a clear message to the powers that be that change in America is going to happen weather they want it to or not.

oh and yes i am a staunch pub.
#21 Jan 25 2008 at 4:06 PM Rating: Default
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Singdall wrote:
I for one am sick and tired of the dems and pubs doing what they want and not what the people of this country NEED. on that point, i hope Obama wins even though he holds several things in his campaign i do not agree with, i do think if he is elected it will send a clear message to the powers that be that change in America is going to happen weather they want it to or not.


Ok. I know you're not meaning it this way, but why is it that when people think things aren't going perfectly, they claim to want to elect people who they know will ***** things up horribly in order to "prove to everyone" how bad things are.

It's the "if we make things bad enough, people will do something!" ideology. I simply don't agree with it. No matter how bad you may think things are, I guarantee you that they can still get much much worse, and odds are the reactions made by the public once they get bad enough to drag most of them off their couches will only serve to tip things even more in directions we probably don't want to go.
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#22 Jan 25 2008 at 6:23 PM Rating: Decent
you are right, that is not what i meant. hmm how to put this in words.

i believe that Obama is the only candidate, that i have seen so far that is and have not watched every debate but have seen enough, that can bring about some if not a lot of the major changes that need to happen in America.

the perception is the old guard, like the Clinton's and all of the pubs running, will never stand for a women or a black man as pres.

For Obama to win that would send a rather clear message to the "old guard" that the American public are sick and tired of that crap.

also i can not stand hillary and want nothing to do with her as pres and edwards scares the crap out of me. the few debates i have seen with him are just flat out OMG this guy is more of an idiot then GW.

sorry to making it sound like i want a bad candidate in there, quite the opposite, i happen to really like Obama and have liked him since the last elections before he was running.
#23 Jan 25 2008 at 7:03 PM Rating: Good
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Singdall wrote:
i believe that Obama is the only candidate, that i have seen so far that is and have not watched every debate but have seen enough, that can bring about some if not a lot of the major changes that need to happen in America.


Ok. Just for kicks...

What changes to you think need to happen in America?

What about Obama (speeches, statements, positions, whatever) makes you think he'll make these changes happen?


And if your answer is any form of "He's black", you automatically lose. ;)
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#24 Jan 25 2008 at 7:41 PM Rating: Decent
several.

remove our dependency of foreign oil (ie stop doing business with OPEC)

[edit to add]

things like this can help replace a lot of our oil dependency..

http://www.wired.com/cars/energy/news/2008/01/ethanol23

[/edit]

either get in or get out of Iraq. by this i mean we either need to totally commit to kicking the terrorists butts out of Iraq, or we need to cut back on troops to save young kids lives. (yes i know that is asking for trouble, but something other then the current status quo needs to be done)

focus on economic growth

get rid of that blasted worthless no child left behind and implement a much better education policy.

patent system needs a complete revamp


as to points that Obama has made. mainly it is his stance against corp. and big oil that has got my attention. he is not afraid to stand up and say what they are doing is not good for America.

for me a leaders race nor their gender has anything to do with their ability to bring change, empower people to do good, and bring about a cohesion that has not been in America for a very long time.

Hillary does not have that, she is of the "old guard" and brings about nothing but the same crap we have been dealing with and the same hates that have brought America to its knees over the past 20 years or so.

Edwards, well his speeches about the economy, alternative fuels, and foreign policy just scare me to death. he has no clue what he is talking about and during the last debate i saw him, he flopped like 3 times in 1 min about a subject on the facility to store radioactive waist. both hillary and obama caught him and called him on it and he flopped again...

Edited, Jan 26th 2008 5:49am by Singdall
#25 Jan 25 2008 at 8:56 PM Rating: Good
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Totem wrote:
Ok, how about do you think is should pass Congress?

Totem
I think the country is still too unstable to enter into a long term agreement with the current government.

I believe a promise by us to give long term support to the Iragi government against all enemies external or internal would help make it more stable. So the intent of the agreement is to tell the the enemies of the government that we will not abandon the country or the government. I do not believe any thing short of a treaty will truly accomplish this goal, however.



#26 Jan 26 2008 at 7:27 AM Rating: Decent
fhrugby the Sly wrote:
Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
Totem wrote:
Ok, how about do you think is should pass Congress?

Totem
I think the country is still too unstable to enter into a long term agreement with the current government.

I believe a promise by us to give long term support to the Iragi government against all enemies external or internal would help make it more stable. So the intent of the agreement is to tell the the enemies of the government that we will not abandon the country or the government. I do not believe any thing short of a treaty will truly accomplish this goal, however.





yes i think that is the consensus here, but sadly the dems in congress will vote down anything that bush does like that right now.
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