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Pseudo Child ****Follow

#1 Dec 27 2007 at 8:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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Super-Short Version: An elementary school principal was arrested and charged with possessing child pornography after police found photoshopped images of under-age girls' heads on adult bodies on him.
Buffalo News wrote:
John D. Stelmack, 60, who had been working this school year as principal of Scott Lake Elementary in Lakeland, Fla., was arrested Friday after police reported finding five pornographic photos involving children in a briefcase in his school office.

The images involved digital photos of two school girls carefully superimposed over photos of young-looking, nude adult women, according to Sheriff Grady Judd of Polk County, Fla.
[...]
The original photos of the girls were found on Stelmack’s computers, and they appear to be harmless-looking snapshots, likely taken at the schools, Judd said.

Authorities believe Stelmack used a digital photo editing program to superimpose the faces of the girls on top of the nude bodies.

Authorities do not believe that the girls were victimized physically in any way.
[...]
Stelmack was charged with five counts of possessing child pornography.

“This is the first one we’ve seen like this,” Judd said of the unusual, superimposed photos. “We certainly believe” that they constitute child pornography, even though the children weren’t actually nude.

“When you take a child’s image and superimpose it onto a nude body, you’ve made child pornography in our estimation,” Judd said
I'm not sure of the legal opinion on this since I'm not a lawyer, much less a lawyer in Florida. But should the act of cutting and pasting a head onto a naked body lead to charges of child pornography? What is the purpose of child pornography laws? If it is to protect children from being vicitimized, then should the above be considered "safe" in that no children were harmed? Or should it be a crime and, if so, why?

Edited, Dec 27th 2007 10:02am by Jophiel
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#2 Dec 27 2007 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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Yes, absolutely. Using that argument you could say that taking pictures of kids in the locker room isn't harming them. Throw the sicko to the sharks
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#3 Dec 27 2007 at 8:17 AM Rating: Good
Under the circumstances, and regardless of the fact the the children weren't physically victimized...had those photos in any way been reproduced and distributed in any manner, the children (and their families) are morally & emotionally victimized.

The article didn't seem to mention anything regarding distribution or reproduction of the edited photos, so yea...the argument I'm making is partially unwarranted. However, I think this situation goes a little beyond the physical implications of a nude child being victimized. I think it would be immoral to say "Well, the children weren't molested or physically nude...so it's ok." Kinda a hard spot, I guess, but I think definitely the correct course of action.
#4 Dec 27 2007 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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To me, it sounds like he may have done this since he wasn't able to get nudes of the girls whose heads he used. I bet if he could have gotten the younger girls to pose nude for him, he would have. It's about the intent.
#5 Dec 27 2007 at 8:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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What about computer generated images?

There's a "creep" factor here, in that he used actual children's faces. Back it off a step and consider images drawn or otherwise rendered, not from a living model.
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#6 Dec 27 2007 at 8:27 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lord xythex wrote:
Using that argument you could say that taking pictures of kids in the locker room isn't harming them.
Taking photos of kids in the locker room violates their (legal) reasonable expectation of privacy, among other things. It's the same reason why photographing adults in locker rooms is a crime (now a felony in Illinois at least).

But a photo of a child in a dressing room is just that -- a photo of the child's undressed body in a locker room. Which could be argued to be different than a photo of a child's head glued onto an adult body.
Ryneguy wrote:
The article didn't seem to mention anything regarding distribution or reproduction of the edited photos
As far as I know, the photos were not distributed. He had printed copies of them in his briefcase.

I'm not really defending the guy so much as offering counter-point. I certainly wouldn't want anyone photoshopping my kid's head in this manner but my gut reaction isn't always the most logical one.
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#7 Dec 27 2007 at 8:30 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
There's a "creep" factor here, in that he used actual children's faces. Back it off a step and consider images drawn or otherwise rendered, not from a living model.
That was my thought.

I thought, and may be wrong so someone correct me, that "artistic" (and I use that loosely) depictions of nude children (painted, drawn, anime-crap, whatever) were not covered as child pornography. The OP seems as if it would fall under this rather than as a bona fide photograph.
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#8 Dec 27 2007 at 8:31 AM Rating: Excellent
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Well, as Nadenu said, it's all down to intent. Was this his fap stash? An art project? Something in between?

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#9 Dec 27 2007 at 8:39 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
it's all down to intent. Was this his fap stash? An art project?
Is it?

I'm kind of stalled on my uncertainity of the law regarding "Art". Because I don't know how many pictures of the Powerpuff Girls diddling one another constitute "Art" over twisted fap material but I bet it wouldn't take me long to find them. The question is whether or not they're legal (aside from copyright/trademark infringement).
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#10 Dec 27 2007 at 8:43 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
it's all down to intent. Was this his fap stash? An art project?
Is it?

I'm kind of stalled on my uncertainity of the law regarding "Art". Because I don't know how many pictures of the Powerpuff Girls diddling one another constitute "Art" over twisted fap material but I bet it wouldn't take me long to find them. The question is whether or not they're legal (aside from copyright/trademark infringement).


He's a grade school principal, so in practical terms, yes, intent plays into it. And would if they were your Powerpuff girls, as well.

Legally? I'm not sure he'll go to jail. He will certainly lose his job, though.
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#11 Dec 27 2007 at 8:43 AM Rating: Good
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If this is truly art, wouldn't he need permission to use under aged girls? Even for his own "art stash"?
#12 Dec 27 2007 at 8:50 AM Rating: Excellent
I do the same thing but in reverse.

Screenshot
#13 Dec 27 2007 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Legally? I'm not sure he'll go to jail. He will certainly lose his job, though.
He should absolutely lose his job. Even if it's a legal loophole or technicality, he's obviously unfit to work in a school. I was questioning the arrest charges.

As far as permission, you don't need permission to photograph in a public place (which a school technically is). Maybe there's a potential libel suit there if the images were distributed.

If I cut a random baby head out of Parenting magazine and tape it into a Playboy, is it child ****?
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#14 Dec 27 2007 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't think it's illegal, nor should it be. While I find it creepy and distasteful to the extreme, maybe this was his way of getting off on a fetish without hurting anyone or taking advantage of those who have already been exploited.

Jophiel wrote:
What is the purpose of child pornography laws? If it is to protect children from being vicitimized, then should the above be considered "safe" in that no children were harmed?


You pretty much summed up my opinion on the matter here. I'm not a fan of the recent trend of "thought crimes". There's a huge market for literotica that involves everything from sex with children, incest, sex with animals etc. While not my thing, certainly, it's victimless and legal. Additionally, there are people who have fantasies about a wide variety of scenarios that they would not actually want to have happen: Women who have rape fantasies, for example, and are into bondage. This doesn't mean that they would actually want to be raped.

Ok, so I've sidestepped off topic here, but hopefully you get my point. I'm uncomfortable with people being charged for illegal acts that did not take place, no matter how icky they make me feel. I would think the only thing he might be legally charged with would be violating some disclaimer that parents have signed giving permission to use their children's pictures for specific purposes since I'm guessing "pasting on to nude model bodies" probably isn't on the list.

Nexa
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#15 Dec 27 2007 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
He should absolutely lose his job.


Agreed. Poor judgement and loss of confidence, surely.

Nexa
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#16 Dec 27 2007 at 8:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
If this is truly art, wouldn't he need permission to use under aged girls? Even for his own "art stash"?


Guess it depends on the image, and how it's used.


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#17 Dec 27 2007 at 9:16 AM Rating: Good
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I think that's creepier than the **** stuff.
#18 Dec 27 2007 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Nadenu, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I think that's creepier than the **** stuff.


Do you think it's art? Exploitation? Fappage?

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#19 Dec 27 2007 at 10:04 AM Rating: Decent
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This very easily becomes a slippery slope, today it's pasting heads onto other bodies, tommorrow it's digitally removing clothes, then it's videos. Some parent gets angry at their childs schoolmate, and all of a sudden you've got orgy videos featuring some innocent sixth grader spread all over the internet to haunt her for the rest of her life everytime someone googles her name. As the digital age blurs the bounderies between reality and fantasy, it becomes important to establish bounderies early.
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#20 Dec 27 2007 at 10:05 AM Rating: Excellent
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That slippery slope goes down both sides of the hill, though. You can't go around arresting people for thought crimes.

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#21 Dec 27 2007 at 10:09 AM Rating: Excellent
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Lord xythex wrote:
This very easily becomes a slippery slope, today it's pasting heads onto other bodies, tommorrow it's digitally removing clothes, then it's videos. Some parent gets angry at their childs schoolmate, and all of a sudden you've got orgy videos featuring some innocent sixth grader spread all over the internet to haunt her for the rest of her life everytime someone googles her name. As the digital age blurs the bounderies between reality and fantasy, it becomes important to establish bounderies early.


Ick. That's worse to me than what this guy did. Are you saying that creating a digital likeness is, to you, the same as having actually taken a nude photograph of someone? If I make a dirty SIM of someone, state that she's 15 (cause hell, it's my imagination, right?), then that should constitute child ****? What if I say it's my neighbor's kid?

Very sketch slope indeed. Sue them for libel I guess, maybe at best, but don't tell me that's child ****.

Nexa

Edited, Dec 27th 2007 1:10pm by Nexa
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― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#22 Dec 27 2007 at 10:17 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
Nadenu, Goblin in Disguise wrote:
I think that's creepier than the **** stuff.


Do you think it's art? Exploitation? Fappage?



Pic is gone now, but if I had to place a label on it, it would be art. IMO, of course. But I'm sure someone out there would fap to it.
#23 Dec 27 2007 at 10:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Haha, someone reported Banksy.

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#24 Dec 27 2007 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
I think it would be immoral to say "Well, the children weren't molested or physically nude...so it's ok."


Why would this be immoral?

The reason that sex with children is immoral or illegal is a matter of the ability of the child to give consent, not the fact that it deviates from the norm as a sexual desire. This is why sex with children is illegal and not homosexual relations, as deviant as that may be (to some people). Replace that with any other fetish really, and none of them are illegal. THe one exception I can think of is bestiality really, and for the same (logical) reason; the animal really just can't give consent. I guess rape fetish would, by definition, be illegal, but that's just a strange one.

In any case, the point is that...

In a fantasy, consent is not an issue anymore; everyone gives consent in a fantasy. If these pictures were just going into some private **************** pile then I can't see much wrong with it either illegally or immorally. The lack of a picture will not stop the man from fantasizing about the children, and so long as they don't get onto the internet or anything, resulting in public embarrassment, how is this any different than just using mental pictures? As long as fantasy stays fantasy, then there really just isn't any good argument for why he should be tried legally (aside from the libel issue which might have some merit).

Quote:
This very easily becomes a slippery slope


And we all know how correct and logical and relevant and absolutely not foolish slipperly slopes are. We cannot try a man for what he might do in the future.
#25 Dec 27 2007 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
In a fantasy, consent is not an issue anymore; everyone gives consent in a fantasy.


And there is the crux of the problem. They became physical when he created the pictures. He was not being arrested for what he visualized while punching the clown. He was arrested for creating the pictures, actual physical representations of living children.

Quote:
Ick. That's worse to me than what this guy did. Are you saying that creating a digital likeness is, to you, the same as having actually taken a nude photograph of someone?

Not at all, but if you follow the logic of it only counts as child exploitation if the child was harmed during the making of the image, this is the argument it leads to.

Quote:
If I make a dirty SIM of someone, state that she's 15 (cause hell, it's my imagination, right?), then that should constitute child ****? What if I say it's my neighbor's kid?

Very sketch slope indeed. Sue them for libel I guess, maybe at best, but don't tell me that's child ****.


Again, it's a matter of reasoning to me. There is a difference between a SIM and a photoshopped picture. No one is going to stumble across the dirty SIMs you've made of me in 15 years, and think that it's actually me. The potential for damage is minimal.

However, these pictures, whether or not they were actually leaked had the potential to do long term permanant damage to these children. The average person would have no way of knowing that these were photoshopped items and not actual photographs. This is a different situation than hentai, or other fantasy drawings. these are lifelike represenations of living children. If it were my child I would want a little more recourse, and thus deterent than a weak chance at a libel conviction.

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#26 Dec 27 2007 at 12:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Lord xythex wrote:
The average person would have no way of knowing that these were photoshopped items and not actual photographs.
Having never seen the images in question, we don't know that. I've seen a lot more real shitty celeb fakes than I've seen good ones. Much less trying to match a nine-year old's head on an 18-year old body.

But, having never seen them, the guy could be a Photoshop wizard for all I know. Point being that we can't really use the above as an argument one way or the other.
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