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My Master's Thesis: "Which Dinosaurs Adam Rode"Follow

#1 Dec 18 2007 at 5:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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Before I start, I'll note that this was an advisory judgement and there's still a road to go yet.
Inside Higher Ed wrote:
On Friday, an advisory committee to the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board recommended that the state allow the Institute for Creation Research to start offering online master’s degrees in science education. The institute, which has been based in California, where it operates a museum and many programs for people who don’t believe in evolution, is relocating to Dallas, where it hopes to expand its online education offerings.

In Texas, the institute needs either regional accreditation (for which is applying, but which will take some time) or state approval to offer degrees.
[...]
Officials of the Institute for Creation Research could not be reached for comment, but there is extensive information about the institute’s programs on its Web site. The list of courses required for the master of science education includes a number that are fairly standard ("Advanced Educational Psychology” and “Instructional Design,” for example), but also some that are not.

“Advanced Studies in Creationism” features this description: “Scientific study of the creationist and evolutionist cosmologies; origin and history of the universe, of the solar systems, of life, of the various forms of life, and of man and his cultures. Critical analysis of both creation and evolutionary theory using data from paleontology, astronomy, biochemistry, genetics, thermodynamics, statistics, and other sciences. Study of geologic principles and earth history in the light of Creation and the Flood; scientific comparative studies of recent creation; application of principles of Biblical creationism in various fields.”

That language, and other comments made by institute officials, suggest that students would be exposed to the science of evolution. But other material on the institute’s Web site suggests that one could not teach or study at the institute while accepting the overwhelmingly broad scientific consensus about evolution.

The statement of faith for everyone at the institute requires support for both “scientific creationism” and “Biblical creationism.” The former includes the belief that humans were created “in fully human form from the start” and that the universe was created “perfect” by the “creator.” The latter includes the beliefs that the Bible is literally true and “free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.” Specifically, the statement requires belief in the literal creation of the earth in six days, that Adam and Eve were the first humans, and in the virgin birth of Jesus.
Also offered by the 'college' are courses such as
Quote:
AG 505 GEOCHRONOLOGY (4)

A review, critique, and evaluation of assumptions and evidences for the age of the earth and its rock layers. [...] Special emphasis will also focus on the results of the RATE (Radioisotopes and the Age of the Earth) research project, including helium diffusion in zircon, fission tracks, radiohalos, discordant isochron "ages," and radiocarbon in supposedly ancient organic materials and diamonds, that together indicate that nuclear decay was grossly accelerated during a recent catastrophic event in earth history and that the earth is therefore young. A thorough analysis of all the evidence indicating a young earth will be undertaken.
and
Quote:
AG 507 PALEOCLIMATOLOGY (4)

Climates before and after the Genesis Flood. The descriptive and observational components of this course are suitable for the general graduate student who desires an exposure to descriptions of past climates. Numerical climate models like MM5 (Mesoscale Meteorology Model) and CAM (Community Atmospheric Model) will be used to explore unique conditions believed to have been present on Earth during and following the Genesis Flood. Data from conventional sources such as ice cores and sea-floor sediment cores will be interpreted in context of a young-earth time model.
Strangely though, there's no "Beginning Studies in Creationism", only the advanced class.

The biggest thing (in my opinion) is not just that they want to offer some masters degree in Creationism. It's that they're offering masters degrees in Science Education using a program filled with Creationism-slanted courses. So you don't just go home and feel filled with knowledge, the idea is that you get a job and start teaching Creationism at the schools. The Institute makes clear that they want to see Creationism taught in public schools so I guess this is their step towards training state-certified teachers to carry the mantle against "evolutionism" (their word, not mine).

So, it's failed in Kansas and Pennsylvania -- will Texas be the first to give state approval to Creationism as classroom science?
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#2gbaji, Posted: Dec 18 2007 at 5:48 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Kinda reminds me of Global Warming really...
#3 Dec 18 2007 at 6:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Kinda reminds me of Global Warming really...
Smiley: rolleyes
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4 Dec 18 2007 at 7:13 PM Rating: Good
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'Creation Science' is a contradiction in terms.

While I personally have no problems with people believing in a 'creator', or indeed 'creationism', the minute they try to justify their beliefs by using long werds/pseudo-science, especially in the presence of children, I feel that a good kicking would be in order.

The fact that 'creationism' has such a huge following around the world, and especially in a so-called 'progressive' western country such as the US or the UK, and is actually being considered by an 'advisory committee to the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board' as a potential useful addition to a childs understanding of the world in wich we live, makes me want to go and smack a Christian over the head with a fossilized dinosaur bone.

Fu'cking gullible twats.
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#5 Dec 18 2007 at 7:23 PM Rating: Good
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And furthermore....


Re-labelling Creation Science as ' Intelligent Design' isn't fooling anyone either.
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#6 Dec 18 2007 at 7:46 PM Rating: Decent
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Don't see the big deal, really. There are degrees offered in all sorts of meaningless things. A degree is about demonstrating mastery of a given set of knowledge or techniques, it conveys nothing about the validity of that knowledge.

Harvard as a doctorate program in Divinity for **** sake. Oh wait, I forgot, those crazy sciencless stories are better than this crazy scienceless story.

:)

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#7 Dec 18 2007 at 8:09 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
A degree is about demonstrating mastery of a given set of knowledge or techniques, it conveys nothing about the validity of that knowledge.
I'd be more apt to agree if the Creationism material were being discussed within the realms of theology/philosophy (like, say, a Divinity degree) and not the spheres of actual hard science. It's not a degree in "Creationism", it's a degree in science education earned by using a Creationism-based curriculum. Even Harvard Divinity school's education program is aimed at creating religious education instructors, not poorly trained biology teachers.
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#8 Dec 18 2007 at 8:11 PM Rating: Excellent
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And is Divinity taught as a natural science at Harvard?

Er, the discipline, not the candy, which can surely qualify as a rock stratum.
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#9 Dec 18 2007 at 8:21 PM Rating: Good
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#10 Dec 18 2007 at 8:52 PM Rating: Excellent
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paulsol the Righteous wrote:

The fact that 'creationism' has such a huge following around the world, and especially in a so-called 'progressive' western country such as the US or the UK, and is actually being considered by an 'advisory committee to the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board' as a potential useful addition to a childs understanding of the world in wich we live, makes me want to go and smack a Christian over the head with a fossilized dinosaur bone.

Fu'cking gullible twats.

Does it have a huge following?

Just wondering if the majority of Christians buy into this. Many I know don't.
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#11 Dec 18 2007 at 9:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Does it have a huge following?


It would appear that the believers of 'creationism' are many....

The Harris Poll® #52, July 6, 2005 says...

Quote:
A majority of U.S. adults (54%) do not think human beings developed from earlier species, up from 46 percent in 1994.


Forty-nine percent of adults believe plants and animals have evolved from some other species while 45 percent do not believe that.


Adults are evenly divided about whether or not apes and man have a common ancestry (46 percent believe we do and 47 percent believe we do not).


Again divided, 46 percent of adults agree that "Darwin’s theory of evolution is proven by fossil discoveries," while 48 percent disagree.


And judging by the comparison of %ages from 1996 - 2005 the amount of 'believers' in some aspects of creationism is on the increase.

As I said before tho, you can believe that the earth is flat if you want, it doesn't bother me. But, the minute you start trying to push your religious beliefs onto others by coating it in pseudo-science and showing wilfull ignorance of real 'science', then you have earned my total and utter contempt.

I am actually quite surprised by the results of the poll myself. The US is getting a more and more scary place to live imo. Especially if you got kids....the breakdown by political affiliation is particularly interesting.
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#12 Dec 19 2007 at 4:44 AM Rating: Decent
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Meh, just another sh'itty college giving away diplomas not worth the sheepcatskin they are on.

Creationism as a science can easily be picked apart by any number of disciplines, geologists, geneticists, etc. Intelligent is the really insidious argument since it is not arguing anything just pointing a finger at evolution and using any number of logical fallacies to discredit it. All of which show huge gaping wholes of understanding of the actual discipline it self, and plays upon people with an 11th grade understanding of Darwin. Getting God taught in science classes in public schools, not unaccredited online universities where people attend by choice.
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#13 Dec 19 2007 at 5:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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bodhisattva wrote:
Getting God taught in science classes in public schools, not unaccredited online universities where people attend by choice.
Well, that's kind of the point. The sheepskins will be valid per the Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board for meeting one of the requirements to become an educator in the state of Texas.
Texas State Board of Education wrote:
You must complete teacher training through an approved program. These programs are offered through colleges and universities, school districts, regional service centers, community colleges, and other entities.
The original article states that a college must be regionally certified or gain state approval. They're seeking state approval.

I fully admit that it's not the same as teaching sixth graders about the Flood next week. Like I said in my OP, it's just one step and not to say that it'll go further (or that the Board will even follow the advisory committee).
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#14 Dec 19 2007 at 6:34 AM Rating: Excellent
paulsol the Righteous wrote:
in a so-called 'progressive' western country such as the US or the UK,


We really don't have many believers in creationism or ID in the UK. I've personally never met one. I'm not saying that some newly arrived Nigerian from the Evangelist Church of the Happy Christ and Mustard might not have some weird beliefs, but it's not widespread. And I'll be dead before anything remotely close to it is being taught in schools here.

I really don't get this whole backwards religious revival in the US. Why recently? And why so suddenly? And who, apart from preachers, televangelists and populist politicians, benefits from it?!

Hmm, well, I guess that explains a bit.
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#15 Dec 19 2007 at 7:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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I just ordered a PHD in Geochronology from the university of Liberia, with a minor in warm earth studies. As soon as the diploma gets here you can all call me Dr. Kaolian!
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#16 Dec 19 2007 at 7:43 AM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Kinda reminds me of Global Warming really...
How's that?

rp wrote:
We really don't have many believers in creationism or ID in the UK. I've personally never met one. I'm not saying that some newly arrived Nigerian from the Evangelist Church of the Happy Christ and Mustard might not have some weird beliefs, but it's not widespread. And I'll be dead before anything remotely close to it is being taught in schools here.
Ya know I would say the same thing. I don't know anyone that is an ID follower, yet many are Christians. But then someone throws in a poll saying over half the people in the country believe god created people.

Now, I'm not saying I put alot of stock into Harris Polls results. This is the type of thing where "how the question is asked" is going to ultimately determine someone's answer, but still there's likely some story to be told about the poll results....

What kind of boggles me about ID is that it has become an anti-evolution movement. We were all taught evolution in school, for the most part, without questioning it's validity. Most Christians and non-christians alike were able to reconcile the scientific facts about our species with their faith in God the Creator.



Dear Dr. Kao, I got this thing growing on my, umm, you know, place. Sometimes the growing thing throbs, but mostly it just itches a little bit. Am I going to die?




Edited, Dec 19th 2007 5:14pm by Elinda
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#17 Dec 19 2007 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Elinda, Star Breaker wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Kinda reminds me of Global Warming really...
How's that?
Smiley: schooled Creationism advocates ignore the wealth of scientific evidence and concensus; Anthropogenic Climate Change deniers ignore the wealth of scientific evidence and concensus.
Smiley: schooled Creationism advocates come from Texas; ACC deniers come from Texas.
Smiley: schooled Republicans cozy up to Creationism advocates; Republicans cozy up to ACC deniers.
Smiley: schooled Creationism advocates use the "Unless you can prove it 100% right now, you have to admit it's all lies!" arguement; ACC deniers use the "Unless you can prove it 100% right now, you have to admit it's all lies!" arguement.
Smiley: schooled Creationism advocates believe the world is too complex to have been formed except by God; ACC deniers believe the world is too complex to be affected by men.

It's pretty obvious. Gbaji is correct, this is a lot like the global warming debate.
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#18 Dec 19 2007 at 9:20 AM Rating: Decent
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the Bible is literally true and “free from error of any sort, scientific and historical as well as moral and theological.


Oh, dear lord.
#19 Dec 19 2007 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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It's not a degree in "Creationism", it's a degree in science education earned by using a Creationism-based curriculum. Even Harvard Divinity school's education program is aimed at creating religious education instructors, not poorly trained biology teachers.


I see no distinction. Honestly. I know it's a SLIPPERY SLOPE!!111elven!!!! to educating the poor high school children of America with a banana and an innertube, but who cares? Intelligent Design is never going to be taken even vaguely seriously anywhere that matters, and frankly, High School Science classes don't matter.


And is Divinity taught as a natural science at Harvard?


No and neither is a Masters in Education, which is the degree in question here. Did you read the article?
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#20 Dec 19 2007 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Did you read the article?


Nah. Mostly I wanted to talk about divinity candy.
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#21 Dec 19 2007 at 2:16 PM Rating: Good
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Hopefully it was a velociraptor. That would be bad ***.
#22 Dec 19 2007 at 2:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I see no distinction.
Can't make it any clearer.
Quote:
who cares?
Obviously, I do. Try and keep up. Smiley: laugh
Quote:
Intelligent Design is never going to be taken even vaguely seriously anywhere that matters, and frankly, High School Science classes don't matter.
*Shrug* I assume you can see the distinction, you just don't care. Which is fine.
Quote:
neither is a Masters in Education, which is the degree in question here.
It's a Masters in Science Education. Which does include teaching Creationism as a natural science. Did you read the article? Smiley: laugh

Edited, Dec 19th 2007 4:21pm by Jophiel
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#23 Dec 19 2007 at 2:37 PM Rating: Decent
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It's a Masters in Science Education. Which does include natural sciences education. Did you read the article?


Did you read the post? I realize you're a one trick "oh, I found a pedantic point I can correct someone on!!! Let me link Snopes or the Straight Dope!!! YAY!!" pony, but you're off here. The question was if Divinity is taught as a natural science. It's not. Science Education is also not taught as a natural science, just as Physical Education isn't taught by training for a marathon.

I realize you have no point beyond your persistent meta-critique of every post as somehow mistaken regardless of the impact of that mistake on an argument, but in this case there isn't even a mistake to find. The skills required to be an educator in Science don't correlate *at all* with the skills required to be a Biologist or a Physicist or whatever. You have absolutely no idea what the curriculum involved is like, or even any indication that the resulting degree would be accepted as valid anywhere but private schools dedicated to teaching a specific sort of discipline. It's perfectly fine to you for Jesuits to offer doctorates in education, including logic based disciplines while holding inherently contrary beliefs to be true, but this isn't.

Why? Because you happen to like one sort of patently false world view more than another. At least have the courage to be consistent. Either holding ludicrously untenable arguments as true makes an institution incapable of educating or it doesn't. It completely lacks any sort of intellectual integrity to find one perfectly reasonable and hold that another should be literally deemed invalid by government fore the sole reason of your personal preference.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#24 Dec 19 2007 at 2:49 PM Rating: Excellent
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I say skip the middleman and just hire a priest to teach science, except that I don't even think Jesuits honestly suscribe to this worldview. Going to the state vs. waiting for acrreditation speaks volumes about their expectations that they could be legitimized through the usual channels.
#25 Dec 19 2007 at 2:54 PM Rating: Decent
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I say skip the middleman and just hire a priest to teach science, except that I don't even think Jesuits honestly suscribe to this worldview. Going to the state vs. waiting for acrreditation speaks volumes about their expectations that they could be legitimized through the usual channels.

I admit that I haven't researched this at all, but the impression I get from the article is that these are the usual channels. This doesn't, from my admittedly limited knowledge of the circumstances, seem to be anything particularly out of the ordinary. I'd think any institution would take the faster route that delivered the same result.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#26 Dec 19 2007 at 3:06 PM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I admit that I haven't researched this at all, but the impression I get from the article is that these are the usual channels. This doesn't, from my admittedly limited knowledge of the circumstances, seem to be anything particularly out of the ordinary. I'd think any institution would take the faster route that delivered the same result.
The usual channels are the regional accreditation boards. I'm guessing the move from California has to do with higher hopes of accreditation from the state govenment, since the standards are mostly the same across the country. Contrary to assumption, most institutions want the regional accreditation board's blessing, because they are so thorough and stringent. The state-sponsored route is valid, but not as prestigious in the educational community. Most display it in their offices and on their websites as a point of pride. Example:
Quote:
Boston University is accredited by the New England Association of Schools and Colleges, the nation's oldest regional accrediting organization.


I know this from when I used to advocate on the Hill for the AI Colleges.
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