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Freedom is just another word for...ReligionFollow

#27 Dec 06 2007 at 6:06 PM Rating: Good
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johnnny the Silent wrote:
Princess Tare wrote:
Stuck in my head:

Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose,
Nothing don't mean nothing honey if it ain't free...


thanks for doing it to me now Smiley: motz


Still going in there...

Good enough for me and my Bobby McGee...
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#28 Dec 06 2007 at 6:24 PM Rating: Good
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If you read the whole transcript it's pretty clear he was talking about freedom in the context of a nation allowing full freedom to its citizens. He was not talking about individual freedom nor was he arguing that a person who didn't have religion wasn't "free".

He's making the opposite argument.


No. The idea wasn't to make Huckabee even more attractive to the nut job Christians. "Freedom requires religion" isn't in any way ambiguous. That being said, this is Romney we're talking about who is about as religious as I am. You don't get elected governor of Massachusetts as a non Catholic Republican if your even vaguely effected by your religion.
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#29 Dec 06 2007 at 6:28 PM Rating: Decent
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Is there any nation in the world that has no religion that you would seriously argue its citizens possessed "freedom"?


Whether the atheists of the world like it or not, a significant portion of any population will hold to some religious belief. Thus, the only way for a nation to not have any religion within it is if it's people are not "free".

It's not exactly a complicated connection Smash. Seriously. Drop the crack pipe for a second.
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#30 Dec 06 2007 at 6:42 PM Rating: Good
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It's not exactly a complicated connection Smash.


No, it's not. Which is why his speech was carefully designed to make it completely clear in sound bite sized chunks. Look I know you're a ******* moron, but work with me a minute here.

Let's together stipulate a few things here:

1. Romney is an actor in this circumstance. His job is to convincingly read something written by someone else to evoke a response. A fictional script that bears no resemblance to what he thinks of believes. Can we agree to that?

2. The targets of this are religious "folks," many of whom would be happy to see an established state religion. You know, Republicans.

3. The intent was for this to be taken exactly as it is being taken, for Romney's benefit in the election, not for some nuanced semantic reading of the precise language resulting in concluding that he holds complex libertarian views and struggles with his duty to his magic underwear wearing cohorts in Utah who think Jesus partied with Navajo.

It's meaningless fluff. Everything the guy says is meaningless fluff. He's the epitome of empty suitness. He's the master. He's elevated the act of the libedoless non threatening handsome older man smile and wave to an artform. He's a simple non-complex corporate sell out who's completely dependable and without personal opinion whatsoever.

Considering you're stated masochistic personal political views, he's really an ideal candidate for you. He doesn't really care about the social issues at all, and neither do you. His sole goal in government is the advancement of corporate interests, as is yours. He'll do exactly what you'd expect a complete figure head puppet would every single time. Were I you, I'd...well I'd kill myself, but barring that, I'd DEFINITELY vote for Romney.
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#31 Dec 06 2007 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Um... Smash? You're basically describing every single politician. Do you honestly believe that when Clinton affects a ghetto accent when giving a speech before a group of African American women, that she really understands the problems of the poor black woman? Afterall, I suppose her wealthy white upbringing in the most prestigious private schools in the country properly prepared her to be able to commune with her inner-city sistahs, right?

Pot->kettle. Whatever. And for the record, I don't really like Romney as a candidate, but for reasons having nothing to do with his religion nor his positions on religion as it relates to politics.


Also, I love how you injected your own assumptions into the issue. You said that "many of whom would love to see an established state religion". Do you really believe that? While I'm sure there's the occasional "out there" religious leader who might want that somewhere deep inside his own heart, I think "many" is far too broad a term. Even "some" is too big. A "rare few" is closer to the truth Smash.

There are far more movements and actions designed to strip away the rights of religious groups and practitioners right now then there are movements to put religion in more control of the government in some manner. And that's *exactly* what Romney was talking about (cause it actually resonates with religious folks in a way that "Let's take over the country and make it subservient to religion" really doesn't.

Since apparently you're still unable or unwilling to read the context surrounding the quote provided earlier, I'll do it for you:

Romney wrote:
There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us. If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders, for they, when our nation faced its greatest peril, sought the blessings of the Creator. And further, they discovered the essential connection between the survival of a free land and the protection of religious freedom. In John Adams' words: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. ... Our Constitution," he said, "was made for a moral and religious people."

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.


Makes a lot more sense. Especially the bolded part. He is very clearly talking about protecting religious freedom here, not arguing that people can't be free unless they have religion. He's saying exactly what I said earlier: That a nation cannot be free if it's people can't practice their religions.


And (as I've pointed out repeatedly) that's the issue of concern among religious folks. They read newspapers Smash. They see the laws being proposed out there. The ones that would deny them the right to support a candidate (because they're religious organizations). The ones that would deny them equal opportunity to quality for federal funding (cause they're a "faith based" charity for example). They ones that allow and support any sort of speech *except* religious speech on any kind of public property. All violations of the first amendment, but somehow still continually appearing on our political landscape.


It's not that the religious people are trying to create a state religion Smash, but that the secularists are trying (and in many cases succeeding) to push religion and religious organizations out of not just the public process, but out of the social process as well. So yeah. That's going to resonate with his intended audience, but not in the way you think.

I'm pretty sure if they got a hint that a Morman was proposing some sort of state religion, it wouldn't exactly be a positive for him with them, right? I mean your entire starting assumption makes no sense in that context at all...
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#32 Dec 06 2007 at 7:38 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:

Romney wrote:
There are some who may feel that religion is not a matter to be seriously considered in the context of the weighty threats that face us. If so, they are at odds with the nation's founders, for they, when our nation faced its greatest peril, sought the blessings of the Creator. And further, they discovered the essential connection between the survival of a free land and the protection of religious freedom. In John Adams' words: "We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. ... Our Constitution," he said, "was made for a moral and religious people."

Freedom requires religion just as religion requires freedom. Freedom opens the windows of the soul so that man can discover his most profound beliefs and commune with God. Freedom and religion endure together, or perish alone.

I have no problem with the first paragraph. The second one, any which way ya wanna interpret it, Romney says "freedom requires relgion". Not only that but he infers that the only way a person can discover his most profounds beliefs is thru communing with God. Personally, I find the statement abhorrent, and just a tidge scary. What bothers me most though, is that so many people will share his sentiments. craziness i tell ya.
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#33 Dec 06 2007 at 7:45 PM Rating: Good
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Yes. But he means "freedom" as in "a nation of free people", not "an individual's freedom". You also have to understand that he's starting with the base assumption that some of the people in any given nation will want to worship in some way (a reasonable assumption since as far as I know, it's true everywhere on this planet).

In a purely philosophical manner, you'd be correct. If no person wanted religion then you could have no religion in a nation and that nation would have "freedom" for all its citizens. But note, it's not because they "can't* have religion, but because they choose not to practice it. The freedom to practice religion must be present for the nation to be "free".

Thus, (at least on our planet) "freedom" requires religion. If there's no religion present in a nation it can only be because the people aren't allowed to worship, and that means they aren't free.

You have to interpret the second paragraph in the context of the first. Taken in a vacuum it has a completely different meaning. Remember, he's not equating freedom and religion (ie: They aren't the same thing). He's saying that each needs the other to exist. Not in a philosophical sense, but in a practical real world sense. There is no nation in the world where his statement is not true because in every nation in the world, if you have no religion you have no freedom.

Does that make sense?
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#34 Dec 06 2007 at 8:10 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Yes. But he means "freedom" as in "a nation of free people", not "an individual's freedom". You also have to understand that he's starting with the base assumption that some of the people in any given nation will want to worship in some way (a reasonable assumption since as far as I know, it's true everywhere on this planet).

In a purely philosophical manner, you'd be correct. If no person wanted religion then you could have no religion in a nation and that nation would have "freedom" for all its citizens. But note, it's not because they "can't* have religion, but because they choose not to practice it. The freedom to practice religion must be present for the nation to be "free".

Thus, (at least on our planet) "freedom" requires religion. If there's no religion present in a nation it can only be because the people aren't allowed to worship, and that means they aren't free.

You have to interpret the second paragraph in the context of the first. Taken in a vacuum it has a completely different meaning. Remember, he's not equating freedom and religion (ie: They aren't the same thing). He's saying that each needs the other to exist. Not in a philosophical sense, but in a practical real world sense. There is no nation in the world where his statement is not true because in every nation in the world, if you have no religion you have no freedom.

Does that make sense?

There is virtually no nation on earth where people don't kiss in one form or another. And if the goburment doesn't let them kiss, then they are not free. So, we can surmise that freedom requires kissing?
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#35 Dec 06 2007 at 8:17 PM Rating: Excellent
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Makes a lot more sense. Especially the bolded part.


No, fuckstick, it doesn't. The reason it doesn't is because it's intentionally written (and not by Romney, idiot) explicitly to not make sense, to not take a position, to say nothing but to imply to Christian idiots that Romney is a Christian idiot too, when he's not.

You may as well be parsing **** movie dialog for deep insight into the characters.

Gbaji says:
Quote:

You see, Smash, what Bunny actually was trying to say when she said "I was hoping it came with pepperoni" is that she is opposed to tarrifs on the meat packing industry. Let's look at it in context..."I was hoping it came with pepperoni, bone me". There, that makes it much clearer, now doesn't it? Especially where she points out the extra cost of deboning meat products...




Edited, Dec 6th 2007 11:18pm by Smasharoo
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#36 Dec 06 2007 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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Taken in a vacuum it has a completely different meaning.


Yes, THE INTENDED ONE.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#37 Dec 07 2007 at 7:59 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Is there any nation in the world that has no religion that you would seriously argue its citizens possessed "freedom"?
This is a none arguement since there isn't a country in the world that doesn't have religion in one form or another.

If however you are refering to a country in which the main section of the population are inactive in the religion the "claim" to belong to or are openly atheist then Britain is very much non religious and very much free.

Of the English people i know personally, not one visits a church or other religious place of worship other than weddings and funerals.

#38 Dec 07 2007 at 9:33 AM Rating: Good
Yes, but "C of E, sir" is such a memorable line that we will all continue believing you're active Anglicans as long as Malcom McDowell remains in our movie collections.
#39 Dec 07 2007 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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Baron von tarv wrote:
If however you are refering to a country in which the main section of the population are inactive in the religion the "claim" to belong to or are openly atheist then Britain is very much non religious and very much free.

Of the English people i know personally, not one visits a church or other religious place of worship other than weddings and funerals.

And this in a country where our Head of State is also Head of the Church.

So there you have it. Make your President supreme Head of the Church, and folks will quit blathering on about how Jebus wants you to vote for xxxx
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#40 Dec 07 2007 at 10:06 AM Rating: Good
Quote:
And this in a country where our Head of State is also Head of the Church.

Huh huh. Hummers @ Buckingham and Westminster. Huh huh.
#41REDACTED, Posted: Dec 07 2007 at 11:05 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) suckers.
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