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#52 Oct 16 2007 at 8:27 PM Rating: Decent
Pumpkin Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Singdall wrote:

as for a "major" performance of RAID0, there is only a slight performance even for video editing and gaming. in fact if you are running a sATA drive and are not doing video editing that is in excess of 1 hour major films, then you will see next to ZERO performance improvement by going RAID0.


No. It's a quite noticable performance improvement. Particularily on read operations.


just asking, have you clocked it? last i read on toms was between 10 - 15% on the high side of burst performance improvements and closer to 5% on sustained performance.

i think they were doing file swaping (copy from drive to drive type stuff) as well as load times for large games. the load times are a burst and saw the higher performance improvement were the file copy saw the least as they are longer then a few seconds to copy over gigs worth of data.
#53 Oct 16 2007 at 8:34 PM Rating: Excellent
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#54 Oct 16 2007 at 8:36 PM Rating: Good
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For the sake of boredom I just shut this PC off and booted it again. 9 seconds, xp pro. Actually to be fair, 9.19 seconds.

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#55 Oct 16 2007 at 8:42 PM Rating: Excellent
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#56 Oct 16 2007 at 8:47 PM Rating: Good
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just asking, have you clocked it? last i read on toms was between 10 - 15% on the high side of burst performance improvements and closer to 5% on sustained performance.


Stop reading anandtech.

I think realistically you're looking at 40% under intesnsive load, like booting Vista, for instance, and around 25%ish under sustained reads. Overall, who the hell knows. Not enough for me to have ever bothered, but then I don't really do anything that would require giant reads or writes or care much if I load a TF2 map 10 seconds faster.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#57 Oct 16 2007 at 9:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Singdall wrote:

just asking, have you clocked it? last I read on toms was between 10 - 15% on the high side of burst performance improvements and closer to 5% on sustained performance.


Yeah,but I'll do you one better than that. I'm working on our next hardware reccommendation spec sheet for state workstations, and as part of that, my minions are working on a comprehensive drive benchmark test using 80gb 7200 rpm drives, raptors, 500gb drives, and some SAS drives. I'll post the numbers here when they get done.
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#58 Oct 17 2007 at 4:40 AM Rating: Decent
Pumpkin Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Singdall wrote:

just asking, have you clocked it? last I read on toms was between 10 - 15% on the high side of burst performance improvements and closer to 5% on sustained performance.


Yeah,but I'll do you one better than that. I'm working on our next hardware reccommendation spec sheet for state workstations, and as part of that, my minions are working on a comprehensive drive benchmark test using 80gb 7200 rpm drives, raptors, 500gb drives, and some SAS drives. I'll post the numbers here when they get done.


that would be great.

as for sash and the now roughly 9sec boot time, that is much better time frame, still a bit fast, but with some of the cheaper lower end boards out there that is doable were as the 4sec is just not going to happen.
#59 Oct 17 2007 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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I caused quite a stir with my raid0 suggestion. <.<;

I've used Raid 0/1/5 both at home and at work and I personally prefer raid0 for home (of course with automated backups made).

Since Kao went through the effort to get SAS 15,000 RPM drives, my assumption was that he wants max performance from his disks and putting them in Raid1 would be a waste of capability (imo) since he isn't doing anything mission critical and can just backup at his leisure to cheap, large, slow SATAII drive(s).

For work I'm going to give Raid0/1 a try in my test environment for my array(s), for now using plain old raid5.
#60 Oct 17 2007 at 9:38 AM Rating: Decent
when you combine RAID0/1 you get a great cross between performance and reliability. nothing wrong with RAID5 for work critical situations. i prefer it for servers (file, web, e-mail, etc.)
#61 Oct 17 2007 at 2:12 PM Rating: Good
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In theory the read/write performance increase by using RAID0 could be as high as 100% (times the number of extra drives!). In practice, you're not using an OS designed to do this, nor a filesystem layout that allows for it, nor writing in the exactly correct sized blocks to allow it to happen. You'll get an increase based on the greater number of read and write heads available during any given pass, but nowhere near that much. The increase will rise as the number of disks rises (each disk increases the number of heads available for a single read or write operation by "n*h"). The 10% figure probably isn't far off for a 2 disk setup.

Also, it's important to be aware that when dealing with more then 2 disks in a RAID config, RAID5 provides "n-1" performance increase due to stripping (same performance increase of a RAID0 with one less drive), and it's a hell of a lot safer. This is pretty much always preferable (and why I recommend using larger multi-disk arrays if you're going to use RAID at all).


Honestly, in a stock MB with 2 drive connections and an onboard RAID0/1 driver, I'm still hesitant to suggest using the RAID. Perhaps Kao has a very specific set of things he's doing that benefit from it. However, I honestly believe that in a two disk system, you're going to usually see about the same performance by simply designating one disk to be your system disk and one to be a data disk. That way, OS operations that are always going on in the background and reading and writing to disk will all occur on one drive, while data operations with whatever games and applications you're using will occur on the other. This is doubly true of SCSI or SATA drives (not so much of IDE since the controller itself gets bogged down).



I'm sure Kao can improve performance doing that. And maybe it's just that important for him to do it. But for most home users? It's just not a great idea.


Oh. And if you *really* want to maximize performance, what you want to do is format your drives to a smaller size then their maximum. In the unix world, you need to use some creative uses of newfs and tunefs (not sure how to do this in windows or even if NTFS benefits from it), but what you do is take a large drive and format it to be much much smaller then it is, and make sure that the actual formated space on the drive is all along the outside of the cylinder. Then stripe a RAID0 (or RAID5) array set up this way. The idea is that by making say a 150GB disk into a 20GB disk, you've dramatically shortened the amount of distance any head will have to travel to perform a read or write operation. Every seek operation requires that the head reset to zero (outside the cylinder), then seek inward to the correct distance, then wait for a pass to figure out where it is rotationally, then begin reading or writing the correct amount of time later along the next rotation of the disk. You can literally cut seek times by 300-500% if you shrink the size of the formated area on the disk.


I knew some guys who used to do that back in the day for DB operations. They wanted "fast", not "big". Worked amazingly well, but cost a boatload since they were using 5x as much disk as they actually needed. But if you want fast...
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#62 Oct 17 2007 at 2:14 PM Rating: Good
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Singdall wrote:
when you combine RAID0/1 you get a great cross between performance and reliability. nothing wrong with RAID5 for work critical situations. i prefer it for servers (file, web, e-mail, etc.)


hah. Missed this. Not a real fan of that either. It's an inelegant approach.

In a 2 disk situation, RAID10 is really just RAID1 (you've got one disk and it's mirrored to the second disk). The minimum number of disks needed to do RAID10 (a mirrored RAID0) is 4. You need at least two to make a RAID0, then double that to mirror them.

With four disks, you're going to have better performance, better fault tolerance, and more total usable disk space simply using RAID5.
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#63 Oct 17 2007 at 2:27 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
King Nobby wrote:
We use RAID1 and RAID6...



Neither of which are RAID0. ;)
No Shit Sherlock

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#64 Oct 17 2007 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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I have 4 disks in my homemade machine, ran quite well until I had some registry issues that make it now my chat box instead of the beast it once was. I plan to take it apart, clean, repair and start over since I got NAS now, I can def have more fun and have automated backups!
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#65 Oct 17 2007 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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In a 2 disk situation, RAID10 is really just RAID1 (you've got one disk and it's mirrored to the second disk). The minimum number of disks needed to do RAID10 (a mirrored RAID0) is 4.


I find interesting your ability to belabor the blatantly obvious even when talking about something you'd presumably actually know something about. It's really amazing no one's stabbed you in the face with a ball point pen yet. Well, it's always 70 degrees and there are cheap 12 year old Mexican hustlers a short ride away so maybe that helps.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#66 Oct 17 2007 at 2:42 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

In a 2 disk situation, RAID10 is really just RAID1 (you've got one disk and it's mirrored to the second disk). The minimum number of disks needed to do RAID10 (a mirrored RAID0) is 4.


I find interesting your ability to belabor the blatantly obvious even when talking about something you'd presumably actually know something about. It's really amazing no one's stabbed you in the face with a ball point pen yet. Well, it's always 70 degrees and there are cheap 12 year old Mexican hustlers a short ride away so maybe that helps.


It may not be blatantly obvious to everyone Smash.
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#67 Oct 17 2007 at 2:49 PM Rating: Good
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It may not be blatantly obvious to everyone Smash.


Yeah, I know. We've had this conversation before. You think you're educating people when all it ever comes off as is patronizing asshatery. Patronizing, in this instance, means speaking or writing in a manner that assumes a lack of understanding or competence in the audience. It's similar to what condescending means, but with some important differences.

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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#68 Oct 17 2007 at 2:58 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Singdall wrote:
when you combine RAID0/1 you get a great cross between performance and reliability. nothing wrong with RAID5 for work critical situations. i prefer it for servers (file, web, e-mail, etc.)


hah. Missed this. Not a real fan of that either. It's an inelegant approach.

In a 2 disk situation, RAID10 is really just RAID1 (you've got one disk and it's mirrored to the second disk). The minimum number of disks needed to do RAID10 (a mirrored RAID0) is 4. You need at least two to make a RAID0, then double that to mirror them.

With four disks, you're going to have better performance, better fault tolerance, and more total usable disk space simply using RAID5.


yes the RAID10 is only used in small business that are not willing to fork out the money for a true server board with hardware RAID5 or a true RAID5 PCIx card to handle the power you get.

i also tend to avoid the software RAID controllers that come with MOST home use MBs.
#69 Oct 17 2007 at 3:04 PM Rating: Good
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yes the RAID10 is only used in small business that are not willing to fork out the money for a true server board with hardware RAID5 or a true RAID5 PCIx card to handle the power you get.


Stop before you hurt yourself. Please. It's painful to watch.

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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#70 Oct 17 2007 at 5:17 PM Rating: Decent
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Singdall wrote:

yes the RAID10 is only used in small business that are not willing to fork out the money for a true server board with hardware RAID5 or a true RAID5 PCIx card to handle the power you get.


Maybe small businesses that for some reason choose to run a cheapo fileserver on a windows box. There's just no reason to do this on a small desktop system. And if you're going through the trouble and expense to build a server intended as a fileserver, there's no reason not to buy one with a RAID5 controller on it.

Heck. My best friend's HS classroom setup has a dedicated server with a RAID5 array attached to it. If the public school system can afford to put RAID5 arrays on servers used for an art class (ok, computer aided art, but still!), and joe average art teacher can configure and install it without too many problems, I'm reasonably sure even the smallest business can figure out how to do the same.


The only reasons some small businesses might do this has nothing to do with it being cost or utility effective, but almost always because they don't know any better. They want a "big disk", so they go RAID0 (cause that seems like the most direct approach). They want some fault tolerance, so they mirror that RAID0. I can see how that progression might occur. But it's never the right way to do it IMO.
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#71 Oct 17 2007 at 5:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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This thread is making my McDonald's vs Burger King debate look sane.

At least McD's v BK was relatable.
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#72 Oct 17 2007 at 6:20 PM Rating: Decent
never said it was the right way to go, but when you are talking small business (less then 20 clients) that do not have a dedicated IT staff and just want a quick fix, RAID10 is a cheaper way to go.

never said for a desktop.

the cheapness comes in using a desktop MB instead of a server class board and getting away with a group of smaller drives if they are demanding redundancy without being willing to pay for a preferred backup system.

for my personal desktops i just use the multi disk setup with 1 for OS, one for data and applications, and if i have the space and a small enough drive one for swap dedicated to its own channel.
#73 Oct 17 2007 at 6:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

yes the RAID10 is only used in small business that are not willing to fork out the money for a true server board with hardware RAID5 or a true RAID5 PCIx card to handle the power you get.


Stop before you hurt yourself. Please. It's painful to watch.



At least you aren't patronizing though, right Smash? ;)
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#74 Oct 17 2007 at 6:52 PM Rating: Decent
i just ignore him gbaji.
#75 Oct 17 2007 at 6:58 PM Rating: Good
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Nope, still don't understand any of this.
#76 Oct 17 2007 at 6:59 PM Rating: Decent
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At least you aren't patronizing though, right Smash?


In fact, I'm not.

Do you see why, or do I need to further explain what "patronizing" means to you?

There's a large difference between pointing out to someone how transparently obvious it is they have no idea what they're talking about and are trying to bluff their way through it (you know that is, eh?) and stating the blindingly obvious to people who obviously aren't.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

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