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God is out of our jurisdiction...Follow

#27 Sep 25 2007 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Oh, I think philosophy is a complete and utter waste of time, personally. It's the faithless' man's religion, a way to flex your mental peen that yields no tangible result whatsover.


That's unfortunate. Why do you bring it up? I'd like to know how you're defining religion also.

Also, many philosophers would agree with you. The discipline itself contains an enormous divide between those who might do moral philosophy, or meta-ethical questions, or searches for meaning, and then those who do purely logical relations among thoughts. True philosophy needs both.

In any case.

I'm aware of the counter arguments to the incompatibility of omniscience and free will (as I defined it anyway; there are plenty of people now that think that even free will and determinism are compatible, but I don't). However, almost all of the arguments that say that they are compatible are not real disputes; they just mess with the syntax of the statement and pretend that they are saying something with a different logical position, which is why I really didn't acknowledge them. Maybe it is a different position, but I really don't see how.

The real question is how you interpret time. When you say, "one could argue that free will 'comes first'. So humans freely make a decision, but God knows what that decision will be. The 'free' in 'free will' applies to the human's consciousness, not to some 'objective unpredictability'" you are certainly correct, but only insofar as you get to play semantic games with the term "free will". Unfortunately for us, the future and past do not actually exist. Perhaps they exist for a God, but whatever it means for that God to "know" the future, is something that we probably can't even come close to either understanding, or communicating. That leaves us in a very strange position; we can either wash our hands of it (in which case it is no longer philosophy at all) or we can somehow attempt to pretend that a hypothetical God "knows" in a way that is close to the way in which we "know" things.

To me, knowledge implies some sort of certainty of the future so that it could not be different from what was expected, because knowledge of things is knowledge of true things in such a way that we are certain of some sort of expectation we have upon examining them. Unfortunately, that prevents anything at all from being knowledge in that sense, because all real reasoning about the world is probabilistic. Quite obviously if knowledge was to be had of the future by anything, much less God, then our free will kinda vanishes. Maybe if you want to talk about knowledge in a weaker sense, where you only have to be pretty damn sure about what is going to happen, and you have say, a probability of the occurance somewhere around 95%, then that would be fine, but it wouldn't be the kind of thing that I think of when I hear the word "omniscience." I might even go so far as to say that if there were certain knowledge of anything, then the future as some sort of construct of time could not exist, because a future implies something that is not known.

Lets talk about modern compatibilism in say, philosophy of mind; there are these dudes that define "free will" as something like "endorsing and agreeing with the actions that you do." The example that was given to me was something like... Pretend that you have been kidnapped in the dead of night, and taken to a room, where, upon awakening, you see your best friend from high-school, a pot of coffee, and many cookies. The only action available to you is to partake in those cookies and coffee and talk to this old friend for several hours. Fortunately for you, that is exactly what you were planning to do in the first place. A compatibilist will call the resulting action a "free" one, so long as it's what you wanted to do, regardless of whether or not you could have changed it. I want more out of my free will. I want some sort of power that can change causal chains of events that would not have happened otherwise, were I not to have interacted with them.

***

Also (as if I really needed to pontificate anymore...)

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You can, but even without reading your post I can tell you philosophy is not what a man does when he's a man of action. Just because it's old emo, doesn't make it less emo.


I think that actions as such would be impossible without philosophy, provided that you have some sort of moral code, and don't like the idea of everyone going about, subjugating everyone else to their own particular brand of "action," unless of course you happen to like the idea of some barely cognizant Neanderthal using his/her own capricious preferences as a justification for well, everything. Although, there are philosophies that advocate just that kind of life.

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I even think it should be compulsory in school from a young age.


If only... god if only

Edited, Sep 25th 2007 4:11pm by Pensive
#28 Sep 25 2007 at 1:25 PM Rating: Good
Good stuff Smiley: thumbsup

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Perhaps they exist for a God, but whatever it means for that God to "know" the future, is something that we probably can't even come close to either understanding, or communicating. That leaves us in a very strange position; we can either wash our hands of it (in which case it is no longer philosophy at all) or we can somehow attempt to pretend that a hypothetical God "knows" in a way that is close to the way in which we "know" things.


That's why God is so fUcking problematic in philosophy.

I disagree that the choice is either between pretending that God "knows" like humans (or any other action for that matter), or that he operates on a different level of conscisousness, and we therefore can't philosophise at all based on that premise.

To me, it's a given that if a "God" exists, he has a level of consciousness which is radically different from ours. In fact, his "consciousness" is all encompassing, almost by definition. If you take that premise, then I think you can argue that we operate whithin his counsciousness, and that our "choices" that arise from free will are both because of, and resulting in, his "consciousness", ehich is to say our "reality". I guess I define "God knows" as "God is aware", rather than "God can predict". "Omniscient" therefore means "aware of everything" rather than "being able to predict everything".

Does this mean that it just becomes semantic and therefore isn't the original question anymore? Maybe. But if we try to answer the original question as though God was simply a human that could tell/make the future, then it's obvious that it's a paradox. Most religions, however, have a definition of God which is closer to mine than to a "psychic human".

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I want more out of my free will. I want some sort of power that can change causal chains of events that would not have happened otherwise, were I not to have interacted with them.


I totally agree with what you say about knowledge and your definition (or expectation) of "free will". I really think the problem comes from the God concept, rather than the Free will one.

And in fact, this is probably more of a theological question than a philosophical one, since the meaning and scope of God's omniscience is really religion-dependent.
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#29 Sep 25 2007 at 1:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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That's why God is so fUcking problematic in philosophy.


That, and he keeps monopolizing the goddammed discussion and drinking all the wine.
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#30 Sep 25 2007 at 1:38 PM Rating: Good
Samira wrote:
and drinking all the wine.


That's why we shouldn't have killed his son, he was good for something at least.

Bloody Jews Smiley: oyvey
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#31 Sep 25 2007 at 1:39 PM Rating: Good
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Jeez, is RP pulling an all nighter?
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#32 Sep 25 2007 at 1:42 PM Rating: Good
It's only 22h40, and I have a bottle of wine and a few joints to finish!

Though I have to say, that sounded more like a Smiley: rolleyes "Jeez", than a Smiley: clap "Jeez".

Well, goodnight then Smiley: glare
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#33 Sep 25 2007 at 1:44 PM Rating: Excellent
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Tare wrote:
Jeez, is RP pulling an all nighter?


Yes, to discuss philosophy.

Over the intrawebs.

But here's a cute picture!

Screenshot

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#34 Sep 25 2007 at 1:47 PM Rating: Good
Meh, cuter with an orang-utan.

That's right, -UTAN!
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#35 Sep 25 2007 at 1:50 PM Rating: Excellent
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No way, kitten jumping a puppy is WAY cuter.
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#36 Sep 25 2007 at 1:56 PM Rating: Good
I would keep on arguing about this, but it would make me look like a little girl that cares about cute stuff like kittens and hugs.

Cars are cool though.

And guns, as well as big tough men that play manly sports where they hit each other on the bum when they score.

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#37 Sep 25 2007 at 2:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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There's really only one answer to that.

Screenshot
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#38 Sep 25 2007 at 2:18 PM Rating: Good
Surely the next step is lolorang-utans.

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#39 Sep 25 2007 at 2:56 PM Rating: Decent
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That, and he keeps monopolizing the goddammed discussion and drinking all the wine.


Goddamn that Bacchus...

or would it be Baccusdamn that God?

Edited, Sep 25th 2007 7:00pm by Pensive
#40 Sep 25 2007 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Why do you try to make a simple thought complicated?

Consider this:

I am a Mother.
My children have free will.
I leave the house.
They are free to obey or not obey house rules.
I come home.
The kids spent the day watching tv and on the computer and the floor is unvacumed and the dishes are still dirty in the sink.
Did I know this would happen?
Am I all knowing?
I know my children.
Did they have free will?

There is no difference between my family and God and His children in this situation. (and I just know He knew they would do that too)
#41 Sep 25 2007 at 5:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Did I know this would happen?


Nope, you don't have certainty. You have practical knowledge of it based on past experience, which allowed you to make a prediction. You might have an exceedingly high chance of having your expectation met, but was it knowledge or just cynicism about the children's work ethic? I'd have to go with the cynicism.

***

However, if "practical certainty that could possibly be overturned, but highly unlikely to be overturned once the time period arrives" is how you define knowledge, then I got absolutely no problem with that.

Edited, Sep 25th 2007 9:02pm by Pensive
#42 Sep 25 2007 at 5:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Unfortunately no. I know for a certainty. lol ask you mom about it. :D
#43 Sep 25 2007 at 6:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Yeah, okay, but your stupid mom comments aside, predicting with a high degree of certainty is not omniscience.
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#44 Sep 25 2007 at 6:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
Yeah, okay, but your stupid mom comments aside, predicting with a high degree of certainty is not omniscience.


You wouldn't believe how many people use this argument. I wish folks would just grab a @#%^ing dictionary before they chime in. It's impossible to have a discussion about anything when people insist on making up definitions for words...

You can see now why I was reluctant to get involved, hahahaha...

I guess the fact that I knew someone would make some dumb-*** assertion that being a parent is like being God because they can predict children's behavior makes me omniscient. When your kid does something stupid later in life, just remember, you knew they'd do that and it's your damn fault.

Nexa

Edited, Sep 25th 2007 10:17pm by Nexa
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#45 Sep 25 2007 at 6:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nexa wrote:
Samira wrote:
Yeah, okay, but your stupid mom comments aside, predicting with a high degree of certainty is not omniscience.


You wouldn't believe how many people use this argument. I wish folks would just grab a @#%^ing dictionary before they chime in. It's impossible to have a discussion about anything when people insist on making up definitions for words...

You can see now why I was reluctant to get involved, hahahaha...

I guess the fact that I knew someone would make some dumb-*** assertion that being a parent is like being God because they can predict children's behavior makes me omniscient. When your kid does something stupid later in life, just remember, you knew they'd do that and it's your damn fault.

Nexa

Edited, Sep 25th 2007 10:17pm by Nexa


Oh, well, people are stupid and we're idiots for letting it annoy us. I spent a good 20 minutes today explaining to a customer how to do a simple database query - I mean, a dead fUcking simple one word, one operator query - and she used the wrong operator and was all "SEE? I can't trust these search results!" and I was all "QE$OTI@QOQ*Y!V^!*^QY#%T", only not that nice.
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#46 Sep 25 2007 at 6:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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I predict that the sun will rise in the East tomorrow.

I am the Almighty!
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#47 Sep 25 2007 at 7:26 PM Rating: Decent
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If anything I always thought the God as a parent argument was a bit squirrelly.

I mean, my parents definitely punished me when I did bad things as a child, but eternal hell/Gehenna/plummet from the plains of judgment wasn't one of them. I dunno, perhaps my parents were a little lax in discipline sometimes, but I can't think that the majority of parents toss their children out for not reciprocating the familial love.

I dunno though, maybe they do. Dr. Phil could be advocating some new 7 step hell reformation program or something.

note: plurals are not possessives

Edited, Sep 25th 2007 11:27pm by Pensive
#48 Sep 26 2007 at 6:17 AM Rating: Decent
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You guys had the right idea to begin with, you just excluded a key concept-- God supposedly has omniscience AND omnipotence. If you know the future as you create it, you can't really give your creation free will. There aren't any valid counter-arguments to this without placing limits on God's powers, of which there are supposedly none.

Such as in susan's pitiful example, she clearly had limited knowledge and control over what her children would turn out like. If she did have absolute knowledge and control of the situation, then when her children misbehaved, anyone in their right mind would blame her for bringing it upon herself.
#49 Sep 26 2007 at 7:34 AM Rating: Default
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The parent idea is not stupid and I never said I was godlike nor are other parents godlike.
The idea that you know how your children are going to act is a part of being a decent parent. And that IS like God. God knows you better than you think same as your parents know you better than you think or maybe hope is the operative word here.
Part of free will is also consequence. Consequence does not imply a lack of free will. It means if you do something, good or bad, there most likely will be a result from it. That result is a consequence and one you chose when you did what ever it was you did. 1+1 does = 2 no matter if it is God or parent or anyone else involved.

edited to respond to above post.

Hmmm no person is responsible for anothers disobedience. Free will means exactly that. It is a persons free will and thus their own responsibility.
Did you think you can blame your shortcomings on your parents? What a joke. You do wrong you get the blame. You think you can blame God for how stupid people can be? He has given plenty of information for people to know right from wrong. He is not responsible. People are. We are given free will for a reason. Spend some time figuring that out, not who to shift blame to.


Edited, Sep 26th 2007 9:41am by susaninthegarden

Edited, Sep 26th 2007 9:44am by susaninthegarden
#50 Sep 26 2007 at 7:42 AM Rating: Excellent
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If that were true you'd never have to worry about what your kids are getting into. You'd just KNOW.

Experience and probability, again, are not omniscience. To equate the terms is, again, stupid. To not understand the difference after it's been pointed out is even more stupid.

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#51 Sep 26 2007 at 7:45 AM Rating: Default
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Balony Samira.
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