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Greenspan Criticizes AdministrationFollow

#1 Sep 17 2007 at 7:09 AM Rating: Good
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Valid criticisms or a sense of protecting his own name and legacy in the face of potential economic troubles?
Bloomberg News wrote:
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan criticized President George W. Bush for following an economic agenda driven by politics instead of sound policy, with little concern for future consequences.

Soon after Bush took office, Greenspan wrote in a new book, it became evident that the Treasury secretary and White House economists would play secondary roles in decisions on taxes and other issues.
[...]
Greenspan saved his harshest analysis for the current president. Soon after Bush took office in 2001, the president set about implementing a campaign promise to cut taxes, a policy Greenspan said he believed at the time wasn't well conceived.

"Little value was placed on rigorous economic policy debate or the weighing of long-term consequences," he wrote.
[...]
Greenspan also expressed disappointment in Bush's reluctance to antagonize then-House Speaker Dennis Hastert and other congressional Republicans by vetoing spending bills.

"There is a remedy for legislative excess," wrote Greenspan, "it's called a presidential veto."
[...]
Greenspan's frustration extended to Congress, which let spending get out of control, he said. "'Deficits don't matter,' to my chagrin, became part of the Republicans' rhetoric," he said. "The Republicans in Congress lost their way. They swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose."
Greenspan also says in the book that the Iraq War was "largely about oil" but seemed to back away from that in later interviews
The Chicago Tribune wrote:
Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, said in an interview that the removal of Saddam Hussein had been "essential" to secure world oil supplies, a point he emphasized to the White House in private conversations before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
[...]
"I was not saying that that's the administration's motive," Greenspan said Saturday. "I'm just saying that if somebody asked me, 'Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?' I would say it was essential."
He also said that he was aware of the subprime mortgage issues but felt it was worth the risk for greater home ownership and claims that his earlier support for Bush's tax cuts were mischaracterized and taken out of context.

Greenspan's positions remind me a little like that of Powell's, who supported the war with Iraq until leaving office and then began harshly criticizing the administration. But, unlike Powell, I don't see as much a sense of "I screwed up" in Greenspan but rather condemnation for Bush and the Republican congress.

But I'm not sure if Greenspan does have much to apologise for since I'm not much of an economist. I know that he has taken criticism for his actions (or inaction) in the late 90's during the Tech Boom and again in 2002 during the reccession. While I bet economists have varied opinions of him, his public image has been pretty sterling and perhaps he's concerned about that changing. Or not. But he's still taken in perhaps greater esteem than his successor so he must have some opinion on what people think of him.

Edited, Sep 17th 2007 10:14am by Jophiel
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#2 Sep 17 2007 at 7:10 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Valid criticisms or a sense of protecting his own name and legacy in the face of potential economic troubles?
Bloomberg News wrote:
Former Federal Reserve Chairman Alan Greenspan criticized President George W. Bush for following an economic agenda driven by politics instead of sound policy, with little concern for future consequences.

Soon after Bush took office, Greenspan wrote in a new book, it became evident that the Treasury secretary and White House economists would play secondary roles in decisions on taxes and other issues.
[...]
Greenspan saved his harshest analysis for the current president. Soon after Bush took office in 2001, the president set about implementing a campaign promise to cut taxes, a policy Greenspan said he believed at the time wasn't well conceived.

"Little value was placed on rigorous economic policy debate or the weighing of long-term consequences," he wrote.
[...]
Greenspan also expressed disappointment in Bush's reluctance to antagonize then-House Speaker Dennis Hastert and other congressional Republicans by vetoing spending bills.

"There is a remedy for legislative excess," wrote Greenspan, "it's called a presidential veto."
[...]
Greenspan's frustration extended to Congress, which let spending get out of control, he said. "'Deficits don't matter,' to my chagrin, became part of the Republicans' rhetoric," he said. "The Republicans in Congress lost their way. They swapped principle for power. They ended up with neither. They deserved to lose."
Greenspan also says in the book that the Iraq War was "largely about oil" but seemed to back away from that in later interviews
The Chicago Tribune wrote:
Alan Greenspan, the former Federal Reserve chairman, said in an interview that the removal of Saddam Hussein had been "essential" to secure world oil supplies, a point he emphasized to the White House in private conversations before the 2003 invasion of Iraq.
[...]
"I was not saying that that's the administration's motive," Greenspan said Saturday. "I'm just saying that if somebody asked me, 'Are we fortunate in taking out Saddam?' I would say it was essential."
He also said that he was aware of the subprime mortgage issues but felt it was worth the risk for greater home ownership and claims that his earlier support for Bush's tax cuts were mischaracterized and taken out of context.

Greenspan's positions remind me a little like that of Powell's, who supported the war with Iraq until leaving office and then began harshly criticizing the administration. But, unlike Powell, I don't see as much a sense of "I screwed up" in Greenspan but rather condemnation for Bush and the Republican congress.

But I'm not sure if Greenspan does have much to apologise for since I'm not much of an economist. I know that he has taken criticism for his actions (or inaction) in the late 90's during the Tech Boom and again in 2002 during the reccession. While I bet economists have varied opinions of him, his public image has been pretty sterling and perhaps he's concerned about that changing. Or not. But he's still taken in perhaps greater esteem than his successor so he must have some opinion on what people think of him.



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#3 Sep 17 2007 at 7:13 AM Rating: Excellent
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At over 32,000 posts, some typographical errors slip in.

Fixed! -- Kinda.

Edited, Sep 17th 2007 10:15am by Jophiel
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#4 Sep 17 2007 at 7:20 AM Rating: Decent
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I know, but I didn't want to read the entire thing and I need the post count.
#5 Sep 17 2007 at 8:02 AM Rating: Good
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Interestingly, while he makes light of the Sub-prime mortgage problems in those articles, he's told the British press that it will effectively fUck the UK Housing market.

Gotta love globalisation.

A Yank Bank lends minimum wagers Zeke & Shatayla $50,000 to buy their trailer, and my house value drops by $80,000.

Wheeeee!!!
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#6 Sep 17 2007 at 8:49 AM Rating: Good
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Gotta love globalisation.


Indeed you do, I might finally be afford to buy something in this stupidly expensive, Russian-invaded, city.

And if it can kill a few estate agents in the process, then it's winners all round.

Go Zeke & Shatayla!
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#7 Sep 18 2007 at 5:40 AM Rating: Decent
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In Australia the intelligent media is running documentaries that hint that a nasty global recession is in the works, because of the fallout of the "Sub-Prime" fiasco in the USA.

Unfortunately if it comes it's going to co-incide with Labour getting into office here. The Liberal party will then claim "Labour can't be trusted with the economy, they get in and Australia goes into recession." Most people will believe them, just like they believed the Liberal party that Labour was to blame for the last recession in Australia. (In fact that one came from south American countries defaulting on their loans causeing a world-wide recession that hit Australia too.)

Ignorant people believing politician's lies depress me.

#8 Sep 18 2007 at 5:47 PM Rating: Decent
I don't believe invading Iraq was essential to securing world oil supplies. It presupposes Iraq will be more stable without him. Baring unforeseen forces, this will not be the case anytime soon.
#9 Sep 19 2007 at 2:55 PM Rating: Decent
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yossarian wrote:
I don't believe invading Iraq was essential to securing world oil supplies.


Greenspan wrote:
the removal of Saddam Hussein had been "essential" to secure world oil supplies



You are aware of the subtle yet significant difference between those two words, right?

Edited, Sep 19th 2007 3:55pm by gbaji
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More words please
#10 Sep 19 2007 at 3:10 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
yossarian wrote:
I don't believe invading Iraq was essential to securing world oil supplies.


Greenspan wrote:
the removal of Saddam Hussein had been "essential" to secure world oil supplies



You are aware of the subtle yet significant difference between those two words, right?

Edited, Sep 19th 2007 3:55pm by gbaji


No. Please, go ahead and lay out exacting definitions

that you will contradict later in this thread and then complain anyone pointing this out is just a nitpicker trying to trip you up.

It is always such an interesting mental exercise trying to think logically within the totally unconventional and counterintuitive definitions you present.

It's like visiting a foreign country.
#11 Sep 19 2007 at 3:26 PM Rating: Good
I urge anyone who's not an economist to check out last night's TDS with John Stewart. Greenspan was his guest and he was able to explain some of what he did in laymen's terms. Sorta.
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#12 Sep 19 2007 at 4:45 PM Rating: Decent
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yossarian wrote:
It is always such an interesting mental exercise trying to think logically within the totally unconventional and counterintuitive definitions you present.


As opposed to the odd trend that so many posters on this forum have of picking a definition or use of a word that fits better into what they'd like to argue against rather then what fits best into what the other person was actually saying?


You transformed Greenspan's statement which had no specific connotation of the US "possessing" Iraqi oil, into one that did. You do see that, right?


His statement implies that the oil in the hands of Saddam was destabilizing to the world oil supply (for everyone, not just the US). Your modification of his statement completely changes the meaning. Hence, my point.
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More words please
#13 Sep 19 2007 at 4:57 PM Rating: Decent
Omegavegeta wrote:
I urge anyone who's not an economist to check out last night's TDS with John Stewart. Greenspan was his guest and he was able to explain some of what he did in laymen's terms. Sorta.


I thought it was funny that Greenspan says the US can't afford to cover all the seniors with medical care - even if we raise taxes - without damaging the economy. So we should roll back coverage - remove it from the wealthy - and leave it covering the middle class and the poor.

I agree medical care costs are rising fast, but virtually every nation covers all citizens with medical care. It's just vastly more efficient then the US system.

Greenspan's solution would put off the inevitable for a few years, perhaps, but there just aren't enough rich to make much difference. The problem is serious. Likely we should do something equally serious.
#14 Sep 19 2007 at 5:04 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:


As opposed to the odd trend that so many posters on this forum have of picking a definition or use of a word that fits better into what they'd like to argue against rather then what fits best into what the other person was actually saying?



No, that is exactly what you do. But please, go right ahead and define your terms right now so I can understand what you are saying.

gbaji wrote:

You transformed Greenspan's statement which had no specific connotation of the US "possessing" Iraqi oil, into one that did.


That certainly isn't what I meant. I meant I disagree with Greenspan - which is exactly what I said. If, in the rephrasing, I changed Greenspan's meaning to something different, I've made a grammatical error and I'm not saying anything about that new meaning. I'm disagreeing with his original statement.

#15 Sep 19 2007 at 6:14 PM Rating: Decent
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yossarian wrote:
That certainly isn't what I meant. I meant I disagree with Greenspan - which is exactly what I said. If, in the rephrasing, I changed Greenspan's meaning to something different, I've made a grammatical error and I'm not saying anything about that new meaning. I'm disagreeing with his original statement.


Semi-Freudian slip then I suppose. You just happened to accidentally re-phrase Greenspan's comment in a way that made it appear he had recommended invasion of Iraq (secretly) to Bush for reasons that just happen to exactly coincide with current anti-war talking points...


Ok. I'll take your word for it. But it's amazing how often this exact kind mistake seems to be made around here. I'm just curious if people do this because of just random misreading or writing of things? Of if it's because they've had the suggestion "We went to Iraq for the oil!" repeated so many times that they subconsciously inject that subliminal assumption into anything that appears similar (ie: mentions Iraq and Oil in the same sentence).

Dunno. I think about things like this. I see patterns in peoples behavior, speech, and writing. And this is a pattern I've really seen a lot of lately. It's remarkable to me how often someone will say something and it'll be restated in a similar but subtly change way. And it does not seem to be random. It seems to pretty consistently travel in one direction politically speaking...

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More words please
#16 Sep 19 2007 at 6:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
It seems to pretty consistently travel in one direction politically speaking...
Ooohh! Oooh! I know this one! Pick me!


You were going to say that it's the liberals who do this stuff you're accusing folks of, right? Was that it?


What do I win?
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#17 Sep 19 2007 at 9:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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yossarian wrote:
That certainly isn't what I meant. I meant I disagree with Greenspan - which is exactly what I said. If, in the rephrasing, I changed Greenspan's meaning to something different, I've made a grammatical error and I'm not saying anything about that new meaning. I'm disagreeing with his original statement.

No, your grammar was perfect. Those two words can have the exact same definition and connotation.

Secure and securing can both mean to protect and they can both mean to acquire.

The only way someone would view gerundifying the word as changing the connotation is if they were specifically looking for some sort of word conspiracy.

#18 Sep 20 2007 at 10:00 AM Rating: Default
Aripyanfar,

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Ignorant people believing politician's lies depress me.


What a coincidence reading moronic statements by australians has the same effect on me.
#19 Sep 20 2007 at 12:11 PM Rating: Decent
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trickybeck wrote:

No, your grammar was perfect. Those two words can have the exact same definition and connotation.

Secure and securing can both mean to protect and they can both mean to acquire.

The only way someone would view gerundifying the word as changing the connotation is if they were specifically looking for some sort of word conspiracy.



Sigh. Except that they're used differently in the sentence depending on which definition is being used. This is one of the things I've been harping about for years on this forum. Just because a word *can* have a specific meaning, doesn't m mean it actually means that in the sentence at hand. In order to determine the meaning, you have to look at the rest of the words in that sentence. The structure and context of those words will tell you the meaning of the word in question. What's amazing is how often a word is clearly written to mean one thing, but many people will automatically assume a different meaning because that's the one that makes the sentence read the way they want it to.

For example Greenspan said:

Quote:
the removal of Saddam Hussein had been "essential" to secure world oil supplies


Secure in this sentence clearly means to protect. Actually, it means that world oil "is protected" in this context. The only way to transform this sentence to change the meaning to "acquire" is if you put an "in order" in between the words "essential" and "to". Secure in this sentence is either part of a series of adjectives modifying the noun "supplies" (answers the question "what kind of supplies" with "secure, word, oil"), *or* the entire thing is an objective phrase "secure world oil supplies" being treated as one noun.

In either case it's *not* a verb. It's a noun. He's not talking about "securing world oil supplies", but about having "secure world oil supplies". Totally different meanings.

You see that, right? I mean. Think waaaay back to like junior high school when you learned this stuff.
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#20 Sep 20 2007 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
In either case it's *not* a verb. It's a noun. He's not talking about "securing world oil supplies", but about having "secure world oil supplies". Totally different meanings.


That is not a noun, you fUCking mental midget. If it's used in the way you think it's used - and I have no horse in that race - then it's an adjective. It describes a noun.

Holy mother of God, you're an idiot.

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#21 Sep 20 2007 at 12:19 PM Rating: Decent
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I really can't tell the difference between low fat and regular sour cream.

Strange huh?
#22 Sep 20 2007 at 12:19 PM Rating: Excellent
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
I really can't tell the difference between low fat and regular sour cream.

Strange huh?


Very.
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#23 Sep 20 2007 at 12:22 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
I really can't tell the difference between low fat and regular sour cream.

Strange huh?


Very.


Even I know adjectives from nouns though. Although I did get pronoun and proper noun switched during a drunk gave of trivial pursuit.
#24 Sep 20 2007 at 12:24 PM Rating: Excellent
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
Samira wrote:
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
I really can't tell the difference between low fat and regular sour cream.

Strange huh?


Very.


Even I know adjectives from nouns though. Although I did get pronoun and proper noun switched during a drunk gave of trivial pursuit.


Was that a game, or were you drunkenly giving pursuit?
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#25 Sep 20 2007 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Samira wrote:
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
Samira wrote:
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
I really can't tell the difference between low fat and regular sour cream.

Strange huh?


Very.


Even I know adjectives from nouns though. Although I did get pronoun and proper noun switched during a drunk gave of trivial pursuit.


Was that a game, or were you drunkenly giving pursuit?


To something meaningless no doubt.

I'm desperate for post count at this point, so let's just say both.
#26 Sep 20 2007 at 12:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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'Salright by me.
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