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#27 Sep 14 2007 at 3:48 PM Rating: Good
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Omegavegeta wrote:
Honestly, I'd rather they just take the win from us. That way, when we win the Superbowl again this year, "cheating" couldn't be attached to it.

Oh well, let's focus on San Diego.

Who's this "we" and "us"?


#28 Sep 14 2007 at 4:11 PM Rating: Excellent
gbaji wrote:
However, on the flip side, his suspension was for the first half of the year. He put sufficient stats playing for only half a season to earn a spot in the pro-bowl. He was caught cheating. He paid his price. He came back and performed as a player. At some point, you have to recognize people's abilities without continuing to punish them for past mistakes.


He was suspended for four games, late in the year, and he was able to drop his appeal to ensure he didn't miss any important games. Then he got to play in the Pro-Bowl. He didn't "come back" from anything. He cheated for the first half of the season, then he took a break, albeit an unpaid vacation, and then he returned as if nothing happened.


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I just think it's absurd to argue that one person shouldn't be punished because another person was, but then after being punished was not punished some more. Isn't that basically what your *****/whine is arguing?


Well, two different rules were broken here. The Patriots broke a silly rule about videotaping signs. Shawne Merriman ingested anabolic steroids. Merriman missed four games, basically of his choosing. The patriots will lose a high draft pick(s), impacting the team for seasons to come. The point I was making was that Merriman broke a much more serious rule, hell, he broke a law, even, and his punishment was far less severe than the Patriots'. Of course, Merriman's situation ocurred under Tagliabue, and there's no denying Goodell is a much stricter disciplinarian, and that's good. The last thing the NFL needs is an image problem like the NBA has, of course the real difference between punishing Bellichek and Merriman is that Bellichek isn't a member of a union.

Seriously, though, just shut the fUck up. You're pretty obviously not a fan of the game if you don't know even the length of Merriman's suspension, given that he's the best defensive player on your hometown team.

Edited, Sep 14th 2007 5:12pm by Barkingturtle
#29 Sep 14 2007 at 4:15 PM Rating: Good
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Who's this "we" and "us"?


We're a little more serious about our sports teams here in NE than most.

(Daisuke's makin' me nervous, loading the bases in the first...)
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#30 Sep 14 2007 at 4:32 PM Rating: Excellent
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I'm sorry, the only thing of interest to me in this entire thread is Shadowmen's avatar of Sarah Michelle Gellar tongue-wrestling with Selma Blair in "Cruel Intentions"... Smiley: inloveSmiley: drool2
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#31 Sep 14 2007 at 6:12 PM Rating: Good
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Grandfather Barkingturtle wrote:
He was suspended for four games, late in the year, and he was able to drop his appeal to ensure he didn't miss any important games. Then he got to play in the Pro-Bowl. He didn't "come back" from anything. He cheated for the first half of the season, then he took a break, albeit an unpaid vacation, and then he returned as if nothing happened.


He played the last 5 games of the season after sitting out 4 games. The suspension started in the first half of the season. I was mistaken in that I thought it started earlier, but the original point is still valid. He originally was trying to appeal the ruling, delaying the actual suspension date by several weeks. He chose to drop his appeal because he figured he was better off just sitting out a few games in the middle of the season then appealing, possibly losing, and then not being able to play at the end and/or in the playoffs.

I can only speculate as to when the actual drug test occurred, but have to assume that was at least a couple weeks before the original announcement and decision to appeal. That means we're talking about maybe week 3 or 4 of the season. Maybe earlier. The bigger point is that he did not fail any of his tests after that point (even while he was appealing and still playing) and his performance was the same after that point as it was before.

He got to play in the pro-bowl specifically because of his record after the incident occurred, not before. I'm pretty sure that if he'd been charged with using steroids, stopped using them and then suddenly he couldn't play for squat, that he'd not have made the pro-bowl. It's not like they make that decision that early in the season...

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Well, two different rules were broken here. The Patriots broke a silly rule about videotaping signs.


That's a "silly rule"? Excuse me? I think sneaking someone onto the sideline with a press pass so that he can aim a camera at the opposing teams coaches from up close and transmit them to his teams bench is pretty firmly in the category of "cheating". That's what the league believes the Patriots were doing.

I think that's a pretty big deal, don't you think?


Quote:
Shawne Merriman ingested anabolic steroids. Merriman missed four games, basically of his choosing. The patriots will lose a high draft pick(s), impacting the team for seasons to come.


The player broke the rules. The player suffered the penalty for that rule. I guess I'm not sure what you're trying to argue? If he hadn't attempted to appeal his suspension, he'd have sat out 4 earlier games instead of the ones he did sit out. His only choice was to continue to attempt to appeal and run the risk of not being able to play at the end of the season and perhaps the playoffs, or drop it and help his team when they would need him the most. I see his choice as a decision to put the good of his team ahead of himself. IMO, that's admirable.

In any case, the only person who should be punished for Merriman's actions is Merriman. And once he's been punished that should be the end of it, right? So, if the league feels that in the 7-8 games he played after the steroid test were sufficient to allow him to play in the pro-bowl, that's their choice. Additionally, the penalty could have stipulated that he not be able to participate in post season games. It didn't, but you seem to want to punish him more then the punishment he was assigned.


The actions of the coaching staff should affect the whole team. The penalty is appropriate IMO. A player screws up, you punish the player. A coach screws up, you punish the team. I'm sorry, but I tend to place a higher degree of moral expectation on a coach then on a player. You're free to disagree of course...

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The point I was making was that Merriman broke a much more serious rule, hell, he broke a law, even, and his punishment was far less severe than the Patriots'.


First off, I'm not aware that that particular steroid is actually "illegal". It's against the rules to use while competing professionally.

Second. I suppose that's a matter of degrees. Did the entire Patriot's team have to forfeit 4 games? Then their punishment as a team was not as severe as Merriman's was. You're trying to equate a punishment to an entire franchise to a punishment applied to a single player. Predictably, you're going to fail at that.

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Seriously, though, just shut the fUck up. You're pretty obviously not a fan of the game if you don't know even the length of Merriman's suspension, given that he's the best defensive player on your hometown team.



I didn't remember exactly how many games. But I did remember that he came back and played most of the second half of the season, which was correct. I tend to not watch most of the games during the first half of the football season, so from my viewing perspective I just remember them talking about him being suspended, and then coming back and playing in the last part of the season.


None of which changes the fact that he was punished. His punishment is over. Done. Meanwhile the Patriots are suffering their own punishment. And when that's over, it'll also be done. I'm not going to start grumbling next year that it's unfair that the Patriots cheated, but now that they lost a pick or two, it's over and they'll get to pick normally the next season. Nor will I ***** and complain if/when several Patriot players make it to the pro-bowl this year and insist that they shouldn't be allowed to because of the cheating done by their coach.


Why? Because then I'd be acting like a bitter old vag. Kinda like you... ;)
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#32 Sep 14 2007 at 6:40 PM Rating: Excellent
You are surprisingly passionate about this for someone who incorrectly thought Merriman was suspended for the entire first half of last season. Someone who doesn't even watch the games. Someone who doesn't understand the lasting implications of losing a first round pick, or a second or third. Someone who doesn't know that Merriman's bad test was from before the season started, and he played till November before he was punished. Someone who doesn't acknowledge that benefits of steroids don't just magically disappear once one has stopped taking them regularly. Yeah, you're basically not worth discussing anything related to this story with.

I am impressed, however, that you can be as blind to the facts when it comes to football as you are in your politics, willfully so or not.
#33 Sep 14 2007 at 7:03 PM Rating: Decent
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Lol. I'm not that passionate about it. That's kinda the point.

What I am is annoyed by people who are trying to argue the ludicrous position that because some player on another team broke a rule, was punished, but by some oddity of the leagues rules was not prohibited from engaging in activities that the punishment didn't prohibit him from doing, that this somehow magically means that it's unfair for the Patriots team to be punished for the actions of their coaching staff.


You do see how that's absurd no matter how many details you know or don't know, right?


Look. If you don't think Merriman should have been allowed to play in the pro-bowl, that's your right. However, his punishment did not include any restriction from playing in the pro-bowl. See how that works? So you can't argue that since he was allowed to do something his punishment didn't prohibit, that somehow this gives the Patriot's a pass on their punishment.

Is that clear enough? Or do you need pictures with circles and arrows and a paragraph on the backside of each one explaining how it is to be used as evidence against you?
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#34 Sep 15 2007 at 7:34 AM Rating: Good
The bottom line here is that Goodell is playing the "New Principal" the the "disfunctional high school". He's cracking down hard, and there's a lot of things he can use as an excuse to "flex" his muscles. The Pat's are, unfortunately, the kid that get's used to make an example of to the rest of the school.

The media keeps boasting this up as harsh cheating, stating that the video feed was transmitting to the Patriots sideline. It's a false elaboration of the facts since the initial news comments indicated clearly that a "tape" was confiscated with the camera, and there was no indication of video feeds made available on the Patriots sideline. Belichick even admitted his intentions to use the video for strategical purposes later in the season, and no one knows aside from Kraft & Belichick whether the video guy caught was simply recording like normal and decided to point the camera at the Defensive coach out of his own accord, or if he was ordered to do so.

Regardless, the Pats have a stigma to beat now this season to prove they're not cheaters, and I don't think they'll have a problem doing it. No one knows the explicit details except for those involved. Every team in the league uses video camera's and footage of other teams. Even on the field defensive & offensive players try to listen in on the signals and play calls. This is why you see coaches covering their mouth when speaking into their headset, or blocking the view with a folder or piece of paper. It's no "New" mystery that playcalling and signals play a huge role in figuring out your opponents weaknesses. And aside from claiming it's "Cheating", it's been a part of the sport for as long as the sport has been around.

NFL.com wrote:
NFL coaches long have suspected opponents of spying. In the early 1970s, the late George Allen, coach of the Washington Redskins, routinely would send a security man into the woods surrounding the team's practice facility because he suspected there were spies from other teams there.

And coaches like Seattle's Mike Holmgren and Philadelphia's Andy Reid, among others, always cover their mouths when calling plays from the sideline because they fear other teams have lip readers trying to determine their calls.

The most recent hefty fine against a coach was in 2005, when Tagliabue fined former Minnesota coach Mike Tice $100,000 for scalping Super Bowl tickets.

Last November, Goodell fined Tennessee coach Jeff Fisher, co-chairman of the competition committee, $12,500 for criticizing officials. He also fined Pittsburgh owner Dan Rooney, one of his mentors and the man who informed him he had been elected commissioner, for the same violation.


Again, it's no new thing. Patriots had a target on their back because they were easy to make an example with. No team wants to get caught now that a top notch team got caught, and how shining & pretty that it happened in a Belichick vs. Mangini match up (coincidence?). It's over, the Media's going to ride it like a freakin' chopper til the topic is sucked dry. Pat's lost some picks & some dough. It'll disappear in 3 months, and then when it's Playoff time and the Pat's are in there...again...it'll dig up...again. Next season it'll be something new where someone claims a microphone was setup in a suppository so they could hear bench strategies (albeit muffled strategies).
#35 Sep 15 2007 at 12:56 PM Rating: Good
Even as a Pats fan, I found this is hilarious.
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#36 Sep 15 2007 at 8:45 PM Rating: Good
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The bigger issue here is that the punishment does not affect the Patriots one iota this season. As such, it is a punishment with no teeth since the 500 grrr the NFL has fined Belichek could easily be negated by giving him a $500 grand bonus at the end of the season.

A more effective slap would have been for NE to forfiet the game and suspend the head coach for up to, say, four games. Then the consequences for cheating would be seen as having a serious effect. Anything else is just for show and demonstrates the NFL doesn't really care about the intergrity of the game.

Totem
#37 Sep 16 2007 at 8:29 AM Rating: Good
Totem wrote:
A more effective slap would have been for NE to forfiet the game and suspend the head coach for up to, say, four games. Then the consequences for cheating would be seen as having a serious effect. Anything else is just for show and demonstrates the NFL doesn't really care about the intergrity of the game.


It's just further evidence to show that the Patriots weren't transmitting the feed or using whatever material being shot for the game at hand, that along with the items being confiscated in the first half. I think the Fine/Discipline is associated with what they found the Patriots guilty of, which in essence, wasn't that much. However they had already made such a big "to-do" about the whole ordeal that they were stuck with dealing a punishment.
#38 Sep 16 2007 at 12:55 PM Rating: Good
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A more effective slap would have been for NE to forfiet the game and suspend the head coach for up to, say, four games. Then the consequences for cheating would be seen as having a serious effect.


Right, one loss this year and a suspension leading to a 12-4 record and a Suberbowl ring would be much worse than losing a 1st round pick next year.

Genius.

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#39 Sep 16 2007 at 7:42 PM Rating: Decent
guess the pats didnt need to cheat to win after all

38-14

pretty convincing win, when you consider all the controversy and the pats missing 2 key defenders.

very satisfying win if you're a pats fan.
#40 Sep 17 2007 at 3:52 AM Rating: Good
It was a good game, I was pleasantly surprised at how big of a lead they took...

...however I was especially captivated by the report that "reports" have indicated that the Jets are going to push the NFL to launch a formal investigation into whether there was a second camera feeding audio to a wired Patriots defense. Should be an interesting week in the NFL. Smiley: rolleyes
#41 Sep 17 2007 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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That was such a painful game to watch. One of my cousins flew out to Foxboro to watch it. He watched the Red Sox at Fenway the day before. He enjoyed his weekend.
#42 Sep 17 2007 at 4:40 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
It was a good game, I was pleasantly surprised at how big of a lead they took...

...however I was especially captivated by the report that "reports" have indicated that the Jets are going to push the NFL to launch a formal investigation into whether there was a second camera feeding audio to a wired Patriots defense. Should be an interesting week in the NFL.



that scumbag mangini sure sounds like a sore loser.
#43 Sep 17 2007 at 6:26 PM Rating: Good
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That was such a painful game to watch.


Really? I'd think San Diego fans would be used to choking in big games then making feeble excuses. It is the land that spawned Gbaji, after all.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#44 Sep 17 2007 at 8:15 PM Rating: Decent
looks like turnabout is fair play.


from espn:

Billick said Monday that the Jets' defense shouted out signals to intentionally throw off the Baltimore offense. Billick claimed the tactic led to the three illegal procedure penalties against the Ravens.

"They did an outstanding job. I credit the New York Jets. Their defensive line and linebackers did a very, very effective job of illegally simulating the snap count," Billick said. "They did it the whole game long. It needs to be caught."


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