Negotiations with HamasFollow

Sien Fien, ANC, Hamas it's all the same, if you don't talk them down when they lose public support some dumbass will kill a kid and they will be flavour of the week again.

agree with abadd.

WE cant fix the world. some day we might realize that.

you have two brothers fighting. you step inbetween them to stop them. what happens?

they both turn on YOU.

that is what is happening to us in the middle east. in iraq, in Afganistan, in the west bank. we are the intruder in a familey squabble. the only possible outcome is the hate and anger being generated on both sides WILL turn on us.

the entire middle east is in a boiling fued, a civil war. on one side are those who want to modernize, on the other are those who dont. its the same in all of the middle east, even those countries not currently in open hostilities. pakistan, iran, syeria. all of them. the rulling parties all know they are walking a razor thin edge that could plunge them into civil war at the blink of an eye.

those that want to modernize want the fringe benifits that come with modern society. better housing, stable jobs, a secure future. education. healthcare.

those that dont are those that 1. will loose the power they now hold. this includes all the clerics and religious leaders. and 2. the people who feel they are being left behind. people that dont know where they will fit in or if they will fit in. people that are afraid they will be discarded in a modern society. so they cling tightly to what they now have because they dont knw if they will have anything at all if they dont.

and here we come. trying to stick our nose in the middle of it to push the power balance toward something that will be more benifical to us in the long run. and here they go, parties from both sides of the argument turning on us for our efforts. and here we die, trying to stop a war between brothers who, in the end, will only hate us more for our effort.

***** them. let them fight it out.

when they are done. after most of them are dead. then lend them a hand...IF they ask us for it. if they dont, pretend we dont see them dieing and bleeding in the sand.

there is nothing we can do that wont result in hostilities toward our country by someone. nothing. and raise your and if you feel like dying for people who dont really like you in the first place.

we really really screwed up with our response to 9-11. we should have turned afganistan into a giant glass linned crater. those mountains osama was hiding in should have been turned into a nuclear winter crater.

let them KNOW they can do whatever they want to each other, but THEY ALL DIE if they turn on us. both sides without discrimination. all DEAD.

i guarentee you, had we done that in a meaningfull, absolute way, we wouldnt have had any problems now or in the future with iraq, n. korea would be a foot note about a crazy leader, and iran would be buying our oil burning powerplants.

and hamas? show them the crater. tell them we dont care what they do as long as it doesnt involve israel or us. the second they open their mouths, show them the crater again. the end.

negotiations ameican style.

Bush really screwed up any and all influence we ever had with these people.

Your proposed solution to the Hamas problem seems eerily similar to your quite intriguing yet devastingly clever solution for dealing with Iraq, Afghanistan, illegal immigrants, that is, to nuke 'em!!!!11

Or "show them the crater", as you so poetically put it.

It's deep, focused on the long-term, takes into accounts all the different aspects of the problem, somehow managing to tie it all in with our energy needs and long-term economic aims, as well reducing world hunger and poverty, and helping the environment in the process... it's quite simply genius!



Edited, Jul 19th 2007 4:43pm by RedPhoenixxx

mmmmm, hummus.

Nexa

Just an observation. Powell was asked about engagement with Hamas as an open question. Rice was specifically asked about it in the context of whether to support President Abbas, or supporting and engaging Hamas.

Slightly different leadins to the topic will result in slightly different answers. I think Powell is looking at it in broader terms and he's right. At some point we will need to engage in dialogue with Hamas. But in the shorter term (which is what Rice was addressing) we have to make it clear that we support Abbas in his opposition to what Hamas is doing in Gaza.

Just pointing out that the two quotes aren't as contradictory as they are made to appear.

Yeah, about as hard to imagine a partner for peace that refuses to recognize a legitimately, democratically elected majority government in Hamas.

That's their problem. They made their bed, now let them lie in it. Hamas and fatah should be wiped out.

Why? I could understand if we were threatening to invade or something but I don't see where any government has an onus to open diplomatic, humanitarian or trade relations with another government simply on the grounds of them being elected. Especially when that government is openly hostile to one of our major allies. Were the people not aware of who they were electing? Did they think that we'd have amiable relations? Maybe next time at the polls, someone can run on the "Keep open relations with the US" platform.

Yeah, but he didn't write out five paragraphs defending himself. Easy perhaps, but not as gratifying.

Because it's not just any government of a random country. The US and the EU have a major stake in what's happening there, and both have been actively pushing the Palestinians to be come "democratic". Not to become pro-western, but to become democratic, which they have been.

That doesn't mean we should throw a party for Hamas and give them nuclear material, just that saying to the Palestinian people "become democratic" and then ignoring them for choosing the wrong guys, is neither a productive nor a fair policy.

I don't blame the Palestinians for choosing Hamas when they did. They've have fatah for decades and it was corrupt and inefficent. While Fatah was doing nothing, Hamas were cleaning the streets, collecting rubbish, and taking care of essential services in this almost-country.

Of course they had a armed wing of the party, but we can't just ignore the charity side either, which is the main reason why Palestinian voted for them. Domestic policies, like us.

At the end of the day, we all recognise that governments and people are two seperate things. That even elected governments "are" not the people. So ignoring all the Palestinian people because of less than half the population voted for Hamas, isn't really fair.

It's as fair as half of us catching flak for Dubya.

I'll take it one step further down Cynical Blvd and mention that the Palestinians really don't have anything we'd want. Morally right or wrong, if we're chatting up some oil producing dictatorship, it's obvious that it's because we're trying to get some oil.

Aside from a bunch of rocks to throw at tanks, there isn't much the Palestinians can offer us besides to peacefully resolve the issues with Israel so we can move on to other things. Installing a government who is diametrically opposed to peacefully resolving things with Israel is kind of counter-productive to getting any chumminess out of the United States (or EU).

Edited, Jul 20th 2007 1:43pm by Jophiel

Well. I think that at least some of our "stake" in this issue is to push them to not support terrorism. In fact, I'd argue that this is a far more important goal then whether they are democratic or not.

Are you an idiot? Sorry, rhetorical question, the answer is obvious. "Terrorism" is the only effective tactic for smaller poorer groups to advocate their beliefs against larger, richer groups. Hammas will stop supporting terrorism right about the time they have superior military capacity to Israel. Do you know what else will happen if that occurs? Israel will begin supporting terrorism. Expecting the militarily weaker side in a conflict to "stop supporting terrorism" is essentially asking them give up the only effective tactic in their ******* and surrender. Seems likely, moron.