Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 4 Next »
Reply To Thread

Theodore Roosevelt's on immigrants and AmericansFollow

#77 Jun 26 2007 at 12:43 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
Not all illegals have done these things, but they all have one thing in common: They've broken the law. Should they get a pat on the back, and be told: That's ok ol' chap, no blood no foul, we'll let you slide this time (again).
*shrug* Strawmen about child raping axe-murderers aside, if your argument is that they're all criminals and should be treated as such, fine. I'm not going to change your opinion. Just don't be surprised and ***** that their children don't say "Yay America!" when it's filled with folks who compare their mom and dad to child raping axe-murderers simply because they illegally crossed a border to work and have a better life.
Quote:
Do you know what Mexico (for example) does to illegal immigrants?
I don't give a rat's ***. They're coming here from Mexico because, supposedly, it's better here.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 3:44pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#78 Jun 26 2007 at 12:55 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
It's called hipocricy. Again, there is a right and a wrong way to do things. Immigrants that come here illegally shouldn't expect us to be standing at the border with open arms, and no punishment what-so-ever.

If you can't get that into your brain, maybe you should visit another country with immigration problems, Israel.

Quote:
In tandem with the American press pushing amnesty for twelve million illegal aliens, the Israeli press is pushing the entry and citizenship of large numbers of Muslim Sudanese immigrants. As in the United States where longtime citizens find themselves not receiving a fraction of the benefits that immigrants do, in Israel the expelled refugees of Gush Katif continue to be denied aid by the government that expelled them and there are elderly Holocaust survivors who are scrounging through the garbage; while ministers and department heads issue self-congratulatory statements on "Our Moral Duty" to granted illegal Sudanese, Thai and other illegal aliens, full government benefits and even citizenship.


You think it's bad here? People like myself just want people wishing to come here to follow the legal process, not jump the border. Is that too much to ask?
#79 Jun 26 2007 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
Immigrants that come here illegally shouldn't expect us to be standing at the border with open arms, and no punishment what-so-ever.
I didn't ask for that. I'm not sure who you think did.
Quote:
People like myself just want people wishing to come here to follow the legal process, not jump the border. Is that too much to ask?
Not at all. I'd advocate opening up the legal process to actually allow a reasonable number of them to enter though rather than capping the number of visas insanely low and then acting indignant when they take extreme measures to get here.

We used to have an open immigration policy. Sign a book, don't be virulent with disease and you're in. You're not a citizen yet but you won't be dragged off either. In the 1920s, we changed that policy to shut people out due to xenophobia and nativism among the WASPs. Sadly, nothing much has changed today.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 4:13pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#80 Jun 26 2007 at 1:40 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Immigrants that come here illegally shouldn't expect us to be standing at the border with open arms, and no punishment what-so-ever.
I didn't ask for that. I'm not sure who you think did.


Jophiel wrote:
*shrug* Strawmen about child raping axe-murderers aside, if your argument is that they're all criminals and should be treated as such, fine. I'm not going to change your opinion. Just don't be surprised and ***** that their children don't say "Yay America!" when it's filled with folks who compare their mom and dad to child raping axe-murderers simply because they illegally crossed a border to work and have a better life.


You imply it here. Maybe I'm just reading inbetween the lines too much, but what I get from this is that you're deflecting the problem of people jumping the border onto their kids, if they have them. To be honest, their kids are not the problem, the parents that came here illegally are.

But here, just to have it clarified, please, tell me what punishment you would have enforced on illegal aliens.


Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
People like myself just want people wishing to come here to follow the legal process, not jump the border. Is that too much to ask?
Not at all. I'd advocate opening up the legal process to actually allow a reasonable number of them to enter though rather than capping the number of visas insanely low and then acting indignant when they take extreme measures to get here.


I agree with issuing more Visas, and shortening the wait times to get them. Besides a "lice" check, I'd want a background screening, just to make sure we're not letting terroists, drug dealers, sexual predators, or crooks looking to escape justice in another country.

I think the the number of Visas issued yearly is stupidly low, and while I can understand why, I don't agree with it. I don't see why they couldn't be increased to a reasonable level, allowing more people access to this nation legally.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 5:41pm by Metastophicleas
#81 Jun 26 2007 at 2:07 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Immigrants that come here illegally shouldn't expect us to be standing at the border with open arms, and no punishment what-so-ever.
I didn't ask for that. I'm not sure who you think did.
Jophiel wrote:
*shrug* Strawmen about child raping axe-murderers aside, if your argument is that they're all criminals and should be treated as such, fine. I'm not going to change your opinion. Just don't be surprised and ***** that their children don't say "Yay America!" when it's filled with folks who compare their mom and dad to child raping axe-murderers simply because they illegally crossed a border to work and have a better life.
You imply it here. Maybe I'm just reading inbetween the lines too much, but what I get from this is that you're deflecting the problem of people jumping the border onto their kids, if they have them.
No, I'm saying that if you're going to be hostile towards a class of people, don't be surprised when those people and those related to them aren't overtly patriotic. If you feel it's worth it to act hostile, go for it. I don't agree but I'm not going to change your mind about it. Just stop following it up with "Why can't we all just be Americans?!"
Quote:
But here, just to have it clarified, please, tell me what punishment you would have enforced on illegal aliens.
Beats me. Personally, I'm pretty happy with the bill going back through the Senate right now. Give those here illegally an opportunity to make amends for their status via fines, grant them the right to work here legally and then set about punishing those who refuse to attempt to right themselves.

But without a means of allowing the rank-and-file to legitimize themselves, I have trouble with blanket policies of "Round them all up because they're criminals!!! Just like rapists and killers!!" How come no one ever compares them to jaywalkers, people who run tollbooths without paying or folks who accumulate too many parking tickets?
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#82 Jun 26 2007 at 2:31 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
I think you're confusing me for someone else. I haven't been hostile to illegal immigrants, unless you call expecting a punishment for breaking the law hostile.

Secondly, you want to compare people crossing the border illegally, and stealing your money for their own good to jaywalking or not paying a parking ticket, fine, go for it. Personally, I'll call a spade a spade, and point out that they're crooks, liars, cheats, and swindlers. Nothing personal in that, other than I want the money that the government took from me and gave to them back. That money that so many people wrongfully call "government money" belongs to those of us that are citzens of this country. I think it's time that it's returned to us.

Punishments should fit the crime. As I said, 30 days to file/refile Visa paperwork, or you leave (if you don't, we take your stuff once you're caught and sell it off to recover costs associated with getting your butt, then boot you out). Punishment could be anything from a fine (5,000 per year in the country illegally, divided amongst those that are citizens of the US to compensate for monies spent to grant services to illegal immigrants), taken in payroll dedutions, if not paid within a reasonable time, deportation) to jail time. I'm leaning more toward fines, unless there have been further crimes commited. Those people get to see the inside of our lovely prison system, then get booted out of the country. I don't care where they go, as long as when they try to come back, they follow the law.
#83 Jun 26 2007 at 2:34 PM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Immigrants that come here illegally shouldn't expect us to be standing at the border with open arms, and no punishment what-so-ever.
I didn't ask for that. I'm not sure who you think did.
Jophiel wrote:
*shrug* Strawmen about child raping axe-murderers aside, if your argument is that they're all criminals and should be treated as such, fine. I'm not going to change your opinion. Just don't be surprised and ***** that their children don't say "Yay America!" when it's filled with folks who compare their mom and dad to child raping axe-murderers simply because they illegally crossed a border to work and have a better life.
You imply it here. Maybe I'm just reading inbetween the lines too much, but what I get from this is that you're deflecting the problem of people jumping the border onto their kids, if they have them.
No, I'm saying that if you're going to be hostile towards a class of people, don't be surprised when those people and those related to them aren't overtly patriotic.



Inclusion is the number one way of successfully integrating ethnic immigrant populations. Accept difference and make them feel welcome and time will integrate them into the society. Within a generation or two it becomes a non-issue. Xenophobic and melting pot type attitudes are actually detrimental to the desired affect in that they tend to force the immigrant population to embrace the own culture in the face of opposition. You can look at historic examples of this or even modern examples such as Canada which sees 1% population growth each year via immigration with minimal issues, such as crime etc. Then look at France :P.



Which is where
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#84 Jun 26 2007 at 2:38 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
I think you're confusing me for someone else. I haven't been hostile to illegal immigrants, unless you call expecting a punishment for breaking the law hostile.
I dunno. I'd consider calling a group of people "crooks, liars, cheats, and swindlers" to be hostile and could understand how that mindset might act as a barrier to assimilation for their ethnic group as a whole but maybe we just see it differently.
Quote:
Secondly, you want to compare people crossing the border illegally, and stealing your money for their own good to jaywalking or not paying a parking ticket, fine, go for it.
I think it's as apt as comparing them to murderers, rapists, arsonists or whatever other over the top crimes people usually put in these debates.
Quote:
Punishments should fit the crime.
I guess where we differ is on how serious we consider the crime to be.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#85 Jun 26 2007 at 7:00 PM Rating: Good
*****
18,463 posts
Wow, Methastophicles. Just get right to the point and admit you're scared of darkies, and change. Nothing bothers me more than xenophobic hatemongers trying to excuse hate under the guise of rational argument.

If California had to eventually admit that the U.S. terk our land, then you have to just be at peace with being slowly assimilated back into Mexico. It's Manifest Destiny. Deal with it. Cultures ebb and flow.
#86 Jun 26 2007 at 7:05 PM Rating: Decent
I'd like to point out that I still think Lord of Dogs is a pinko.
#87 Jun 26 2007 at 7:30 PM Rating: Default
King Rimesume wrote:
I'd like to point out that I still think Lord of Dogs is a pinko.
i'd like to point out idk what pinko is
#88 Jun 26 2007 at 8:46 PM Rating: Good
Teddy did have one thing right IMO, one language but "English"! How many of speak english without using any regional references or slang? I am not sure if Teddy would even understand much of today's english. Lord knows I have trouble sometimes with what my 16 yo nephew is talking about!
#89 Jun 27 2007 at 7:58 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
Atomicflea wrote:
Wow, Methastophicles. Just get right to the point and admit you're scared of darkies, and change. Nothing bothers me more than xenophobic hatemongers trying to excuse hate under the guise of rational argument.

If California had to eventually admit that the U.S. terk our land, then you have to just be at peace with being slowly assimilated back into Mexico. It's Manifest Destiny. Deal with it. Cultures ebb and flow.


You make bold statments based on no personal knowledge of me what-so-ever. Most of my friends are of the "darkie" persuasion. I live in an area where the "darkies" are dominant. Other than the occasional overly loud stereo, and once in a blue moon police chase, or once every three years, a shooting, this is an average, place. A far cry from where it was when I grew up, when the shootings were daily, the police chases nightly, and the overly loud stereo was mine.

You also think that I'm afraid of change...heh, I like change in most reguards. Change is refreshing. Please, at least get your insults right. Xenophobe? Let's see, the idea of meeting ET doesn't worry me, I get along with strangers just fine, and foreigners don't bother me. However, LAWBREAKERS do. There is a VAST difference between someone from south of the border, and someone who hopped the border. If California wants to "return" to Mexico, so be it, I don't give a rats ***. It's the right of California to do so, but I would expect the example that Abe left us would push more war right down Mexico's throat. Mexico lost the land, plain and simple. Doesn't matter how anymore, they lost it. It now belongs to the people that are there. If you really want to get technical, the majority of the land in the US would belong to the different tribes of Indians, but I guess you knew that already, you're only trying to force a set label on me to make yourself feel better about whatever.

Now, to restate what I've said:

1. We need for people to come to the US legally, not illegally. In order to do this, I agree that Visas should be drasticly increased to sane levels, rather than the minimal levels they're at now. People that come into this country illegally, should be punished, however, it doesn't have to be anything evil, a fine will do in most cases, with the exceptions being those that have commited other crimes while in this country illegally, including jail, fines, and deportation.

2. Legal immigrants shoud have an easier way to renew their Visas, with less time required to do so. These people, for the most part, are the ones trying to improve their lot in life at their own expense, rather than the expense of others. Because they are not citizens, they shouldn't receive any benifits that our federal government provide, however, should be able to seek state benifits in the same situations that citizen residents of that state can apply.

3. Citizenship should have an easier path for those that want it, however, it should not simply be handed out. Testing, and language knowledge and speaking abilty, should be the minimal steps required, as well as a minimum of two years in country without any criminal charges (traffic violations not involving deaths are exempt, and those that are should be reviewed based on the charge, if there is one). This allows everyone who wishes to become a citizen a way to do so that is not cumbersome.

4. Reguarding children, the Constitution should be amended to read that only children born to legal residents/immigrants are granted natural born citizenship, and the parents of said children are granted permanent resident status, and are allow to gain a US passport, and have access to most benifits available from the government, exceptions being, Social Security, ability to hold elected office, or be appointed to any postion that would allow them the ability to seat in an elected officer's place, and they are required by law to file a federal income tax return. They may also gain citizenship upon meeting the same requirements, with the exception of a minimum of 18 months (instead of 24).

5. Reguarding those that are currently in the country illegally, the should be granted 30 days to become legal via a simple process to apply for a travel Visa. Once a background screening has been completed, and history verified, they are subject to a fine of up to 3000 US dollars per year, up to $15,000, to be paid within a fair amount of time, based on yearly pay. Anyone here illegally longer than 5 years, and capable of passing the requirements for citizenship should then be enrolled in a program to obtain citizenship, should they want it, in which they would have to meet certain requirements, such as being able to speak the language of the United States, have held a job for a minimum period of 9 of the last 12 months, and have been charged with no felonies while in the US. The option that all illegal immigrants have, should the not desire to pay fines, or become a legal immigrant, is to leave the country, at our expense, with no other penalty than they must leave, or risk having all possesions and monies siezed, and be deported. Exceptions to this are people found to be tied to terroist plots, activities, or are possess the tools to commit a terroist act inside the United States. These people are to be charged in a military court, and subject to military jurisdiction, and thus subject to any penalty deemed appropriate by the officer in charge of their trial, including death.

I think these items are fair to all, and most importantly, make things easier for everyone who is here illegally, to become legal, and those that have no wish to become legal, an easy way out.

This is about laws, and it doesn't matter if you like them or not, it is a law that must be followed. You either follow the law, or you don't. Just keep in mind that if you don't, you may be punished.
#90 Jun 27 2007 at 8:03 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
Lordofdogs wrote:
King Rimesume wrote:
I'd like to point out that I still think Lord of Dogs is a pinko.
i'd like to point out idk what pinko is


Really people, Google is your friend.


Wiki definition of "pinko".
#91 Jun 27 2007 at 8:32 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
There is a VAST difference between someone from south of the border, and someone who hopped the border.
Not really, no. The difference is an administrative one and some government paperwork. It doesn't really change the person at all.
Quote:
If California wants to "return" to Mexico, so be it, I don't give a rats ***.
Without asking her, I'd assume that Flea's remarks there were largely facetious. She has said, many times before, that Mexicans in America will assimilate into America given time.
Quote:
Now, to restate what I've said:

1. We need for people to come to the US legally, not illegally. In order to do this, I agree that Visas should be drasticly increased to sane levels, rather than the minimal levels they're at now.
I agree with this and even the notion of punishing violators. I'm much less easy punishing current violators while we have intentionally miniscule visa allotments and then say "They should just do it the legal way!" as if it was that easy.
Quote:
[...]Because they are not citizens, they shouldn't receive any benifits that our federal government provide, however, should be able to seek state benifits in the same situations that citizen residents of that state can apply.
Anyone earning money in the United States is subject to federal income taxes, including resident aliens. If you're paying into the system, you should be allowed to draw from it.
Quote:
3. Citizenship should have an easier path for those that want it, however, it should not simply be handed out.
I'm not that I have a problem with citizenship requirements but, if you want to streamline them, sure. No debate from me.
Quote:
4. Reguarding children, the Constitution should be amended to read that only children born to legal residents/immigrants are granted natural born citizenship[...]
Won't happen. I don't even entirely disagree, but you'll never see it pass.
Quote:
5. Reguarding those that are currently in the country illegally, [...] they are subject to a fine of up to 3000 US dollars per year, up to $15,000, to be paid within a fair amount of time, based on yearly pay.
Seems excessive to me but then again you're more worked up about the illegal aspect than I am.
Quote:
Anyone here illegally longer than 5 years, and capable of passing the requirements for citizenship should then be enrolled in a program to obtain citizenship, should they want it
Again, I'm more interested in normalizing them via resident status or permanent visas than rushing them along to full citizenship but if you want to go that route, power to ya.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#92 Jun 27 2007 at 8:44 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
What I'm think about right now, is in to make things easier to understand. Right now, we have a moronic system for immigration, and it sucks.

By offering citizenship, and rewards for it, I'm thinking that more people would take it seriously, and become what they desire, Americans, otherwise, there would be outlets for those that just want to work here for a few months to a year or two, and move on. All legal, and happy.

This would reduce the need for a border fence, though I'd still be a huge fan of protecting the borders from invasion from those that would seek to attack us, terrorists for example, there would be no need to go to extreme measures to do so. We could move forth with patrols in higher traffic areas, and fences and unmanned recon equipment with thermal scaning used at night. That along could reduce long term costs of border protection, and allow more resources to getting more people in legally, and thus making everyone happy.
#93 Jun 27 2007 at 8:53 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Quote:
there would be outlets for those that just want to work here for a few months to a year or two, and move on


Yeah. We need a sane work visa program.

As for border patrol - really just patrol the populated areas. The desert is a bigger barrier than any man-made fence.
____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#94 Jun 27 2007 at 10:47 AM Rating: Default
Metastophicleas wrote:
Lordofdogs wrote:
King Rimesume wrote:
I'd like to point out that I still think Lord of Dogs is a pinko.
i'd like to point out idk what pinko is


Really people, Google is your friend.


Wiki definition of "pinko".
well how did you know I'm 1/2 Russian?
1 2 3 4 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 238 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (238)