Forum Settings
       
Reply To Thread

Theodore Roosevelt's on immigrants and AmericansFollow

#52 Jun 25 2007 at 7:02 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
I didn't say "all". I said they "largely left their languages...". Not all. Most. Enough of a majority that the communities they formed could not manage to exist as separate enclaves with only those other languages spoken.
Spoken like someone who has never been to those neighborhoods. I'll tell you what -- call me next time you're in Chicago and I'll take you to some Polish neighborhoods where you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who can hold a conversation with you in English. Including in the stores, restaurants, taverns, etc. And this is generations after they were formed and long past their peak in population and "pureness".
Quote:
Enough understood that in order to succeed they would need to adopt the language and customs of their new country. It's not like they suddenly forgot everything about their countries of origin, but they made an active choice to learn and embrace everything they could about the new one.
No, not really. By in large, it was a product of assimilation over generations. It's a pretty well tested sociological tool that, by the third generation, the grandchildren are pretty well Americanized. That's exactly what happened in my own family -- my great-grandparents spoke Polish, my grandparents spoke both Polish and English and, by the time my mother was growing up, she knew a little Polish through her grandmother but never really kept it. But it wasn't because my great-grandparents decided that they needed to learn English to survive. They were able to survive very well speaking Polish in c.1920 Chicago.
Quote:
Clearly, this was enough of an issue back in Roosevelt's day for him to mention it.
The problem in Roosevelt's day was that the nice WASPy waves of English and French immigrants had largely ended and the new waves were of Catholics and Jews from Ireland, Italy and the Slavic nations. In fact, the first immigration quota systems were put into place to try to stem the flow of these "undesirables". People were concerned because, as immigrants came to the country and collected wealth, so did the Catholic church and the "old generations" saw those dirty Papists as a threat to the nation. And we won't even mention what they thought of the Jews. That's just the religious angle. We shouldn't discount good ole fashioned bigotry and xenophobia. Oh, or the "They're all socialist/fascists/communists" hysteria. That sounds like something you could get behind Smiley: laugh

I don't think it's any real coincidence though that the first real urban ethnic enclaves were formed of immigrants marginalized by American nativists who attempted to keep them out and mistreated them once they were here. Small wonder that they didn't rush to "assimiliate" themselves into American society and preferred to keep to themselves.
Quote:
that simply dwarfs the "little<nationoforigin>" neighborhoods of the past.
You apparently have no idea what the cities of that era looked like. It's okay; you're typically ignorant of things you're trying to make a point about. It'd just be nice if once in a while you could research something a tiny bit before you tried to use it as a point in a debate.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 10:22am by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#53 Jun 25 2007 at 7:29 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Oh, and I forgot to add this important message:

Metastophicleas, get on Meneldor, level to 10 and roll a Creep. Angmar's swarm needs more blood.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#54 Jun 26 2007 at 10:13 AM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Spoken like someone who has never been to those neighborhoods. I'll tell you what -- call me next time you're in Chicago and I'll take you to some Polish neighborhoods where you'll be hard pressed to find anyone who can hold a conversation with you in English. Including in the stores, restaurants, taverns, etc. And this is generations after they were formed and long past their peak in population and "pureness".


Difference is that you have to go looking for those neighborhoods Joph.

I'm also not sure how this invalidates the argument being made here. It's not like my position is eclusive to hispanics Joph. They just happen to be the largest group right now. Certainly that does not preclude there being other ethnicities who retain another language for one reason or another instead of learning English.

Are you arguing this this is a "good thing"? When does it cease to be good? It's one thing to have a smallish neighborhood that you can choose to go to and the people speak another language. Great! Get a slice of <insert other nation> while remaining in the US. No problems really. But what percentage of the total population of Chicago would you estimate can only speak Polish? .001%? Less? Probably.

There are literally whole sections of major cities and entire smaller towns (but still many times larger than any of the neighborhoods you're talking about) here in southern California where the primary language spoken is Spanish, with considerable percentages of their populations who can *only* speak Spanish. Those areas are inevitably poor, not because of some racial/ethnic bigotry, but because they can't get business to come into their areas because there aren't enough English speakers there. They don't get money flowing in from surrounding areas, because lets face it, the novelty of going into an area where another language is spoken exclusively only works to support a smallish number of restaurants and such. It may be "fun" for an English speaker to go to a restaurant run by people who speak Polish, or French, or Italian, or Spanish. Every once in awhile at least. But it's not so much fun to do your daily shopping there, or buy a TV, or a sofa, or a car in said businesses.

And let's face it. If I want to go shopping in a neighboorhood where everyone speaks Spanish, I can simply drive down to Mexico itself. And the goods will be much much cheaper too!

In small doses, those types of neighborhoods work. In large sprawling areas, they result in massive poverty. There are simply too many people living there (largely due to the language usage) for the local economy to support.

I'd invite you to take a tour of some of those areas around here Joph. You'll see that they share *nothing* in common with the quaint sections of Chicago where the people speak Polish, no matter how much you seem to want to romantisize them to be similar.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 11:17am by gbaji
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#55 Jun 26 2007 at 10:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
The point, knucklehead, is that in the 1920s (and thereabouts) they weren't "quaint neighborhoods", they were large areas of the city. Assimilation has reduced them in size.

Since you're apparently suffering from some cognitive disorder, let me spell it out slowly in steps:

Smiley: schooled Italians, Irish, Poles, Other Slavs, etc immigrated to the United States where they were met with open hostility.

Smiley: schooled Said groups formed their own ethnic enclaves where they spoke their native languages, kept their native customs and, most importantly, kept among themselves.

Smiley: schooled Said groups eventually assimilated into mainstream American culture over the course of generations to the point where Chicago still has enclaves but they are greatly diminished from the Polish-only, Serbian-only or Lithuanian-only sprawls of yore. However, the fact that these enclaves do still exist is testament to the fact that these things take time.

Smiley: schooled Currently, Mexicans are immigrating in large numbers to open hostility both from the public and from a government attempting to restrict them via strict quotas, much as they did with the afore mentioned immigrants.

Smiley: schooled Said Mexicans are forming (well, have formed) ethnic enclaves

Smiley: schooled The children of said immigrants are assimilating into American culture, perhaps even quicker than previous immigrant waves did. I quote an article below but I've read more studies showing that Latinos are often learning English faster, inter-marrying more and adopting American norms for naming their children than previous immigrant waves. But it takes time. It takes generations.

Smiley: schooled Finally, and I think this is where we find common ground, I propose that the quickest way to facilitate assimilation is by normalizing the status of the immigrants who are here. Don't make children choose between loyalty to their family or to a nation which is hostile to their family. Don't encourage remaining within enclaves by making it dangerous to leave to find work, housing, education, etc and risk deportation.

Transgenerational assimilation will happen. No matter how easy we make things for first generation immigrants, their children will attend English speaking schools, make English speaking friends, adopt their customs, listen to their music, prefer NBC over Telemundo, wish to attend universites, get jobs with English speaking businesses, etc. The problem is that we've gotten ourselves so worked up over the right now that we've forgotten the lessons of past immigration waves and demand an immediate solution.

U.S. News & World Report in April 2007 wrote:
In 2003, Rand economist James P. Smith's research suggested that Hispanics had historically made educational and economic progress similar to that of previous European immigrant waves. While Hispanic immigrants had only about 70 percent the lifetime earnings of native-born whites, the most recent data showed the second generation cutting that gap nearly in half.

Perhaps the best sign of this growing assimilation is the high rate of Hispanics marrying outside of their ethnic group. Few foreign-born Hispanics marry non-Hispanics, partly because many arrive married. But studies show only 68 percent of their children, and 43 percent of their grandchildren, marry fellow Latinos.

Definitions. Far from the separate cultures Huntington envisions, some experts contend that the Hispanic population's growth will bring it increasing irrelevance as a designation. "Hispanic" has always been a more amorphous characterization than other definitions of origin; the Census Bureau does not define it as a race. Research from the Pew Hispanic Center shows that Hispanics in later generations increasingly identify as "white." And America's definition of the majority group has historically proved elastic, expanding to include previous waves of Irish, Italian, and Polish immigrants.

Educational and economic disparities may narrow but will most likely persist long into the future. However, the most readily voiced fear-that the Spanish language will displace English-seems the least grounded. Last year, research on Spanish retention in heavily Mexican Southern California found that Mexicans in the region retain proficiency in their native tongue longer than other immigrant groups, but English quickly dominates. Fewer than 30 percent of the children of Mexican immigrants reported preferring to speak Spanish at home. By generation three, only 17 percent of the Mexican-Americans spoke fluent Spanish.

"If there's not retention of the Spanish language in Southern California, it's not going to be retained anywhere," says Princeton Prof. Douglas Massey, one of the study's authors.


Edited, Jun 26th 2007 1:48pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#56 Jun 26 2007 at 10:52 AM Rating: Good
My buddy and business partner Universo is a first generation American, the son of two illegals from Mexico. He's a bilingual insurance agent. We own a fourplex together. He attended UC Santa Barbara. He owns a huge, gas-guzzling Ford pickup and wants to buy a new Mercedes. He works so hard that he sweats green chile.

He's the American dream.
#57 Jun 26 2007 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Quote:
Few foreign-born Hispanics marry non-Hispanics, partly because many arrive married.


Excuses! Excuses!
____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#58 Jun 26 2007 at 10:57 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I'm doing my part to assimilate the Latinas!

If you're not part of the solution...
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#59 Jun 26 2007 at 11:26 AM Rating: Good
Vagina Dentata,
what a wonderful phrase
******
30,106 posts
I will add briefly that I grew up in a French-speaking area that was not particularly nationalistic since it was so close to the border, we were quasi-Canadians--it is not just pockets of recent immigrants but there are areas in the country that have been non-English speaking for a hundred fifty--two hundred years or more.

Yet we don't look at 1910, 1920, etc. as the beginning of the end but rather the good old days and yet we WERE experiencing the same thing now that we did then. The establishment and scaremongerers--like the Know-nothings (who were around actually even earlier in the mid-19th century), is similar to the current anti-immigrant sentiment currently in much of the country.

Settlement Houses in the 19th century and early 20th century were established for many of the same reasons that people are protesting immigration now--basically because of the established people feeling the need to assimilate people that they feel are from an inferior country. Joph's relative were Polish--mine were Italian and coming through New York in 1910, they were treated similarly.

The difference now isn't so much that we just become American in a flurry of patriotic affiliation but that rather, America's divisions aren't cultural or ethnic and our strongest identity isn't even nationalistic --they aren't based in history or biology. In the US, all the power divisions are based on race--eventually Italians became white and could now be aligned with the people in power.

Most Latinos (who come to America--and I understand that there are racial identities and divisions in Latin America--but the dominant US belief simplifies Latino identity into a single racial identity) are being treated as an encroaching problem, different than the people from the early part of the 20th century because they aren't considered white and therefore are discriminated against, degraded and blamed to uphold the current racial hierarchy. They are blamed the ways that most people of color are blamed--for not being patriotic enough or working hard enough or whatever crap du jour is being spouted.





Edited, Jun 26th 2007 3:30pm by Annabella
____________________________
Turin wrote:
Seriously, what the f*ck nature?
#60 Jun 26 2007 at 11:28 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
I have to disagree on just a couple of points:

1. While I understand that assimilation takes time, the question that you're addressing wasn't asked. At this point the law doesn't care about illegals, and to be honest, for the point of this conversation, I don't either. The people that I'm personally refering too, are people that are citizens of this country. Creating a law (not sure that's the right step, but seems like it) that states the American English is the language of The United States, and asking everyone to stick to it as their primary language is a good thing. Hell, take the money that is given to illegals now, and use it to fund programs that teach English as a first language to people that don't speak it now if you have too. I don't think there would be that much backlash from it at all. It may take a couple of years to get sub populations that haven't gotten with the program yet to do so, but it's ok to take time, but this is a nation of English speakers, people that wish to live here, should be required to speak that language, in fact, I believe that is required to become a naturalized citizen.

2. The original point of this topic was not do debate immigration. It was to debate the idea of setting higher standards, and getting rid of the PC crap that is being used to gain and keep political power. We have allowed ourselves to be divided. It's rare to have a conversation about politics today where words aren't hurled in anger, or with the intent to anger. Those same people that we argue about, and same sides that we defend, are doing more to separate us from each other, than ANYTHING we the people can do. The last thing I personally would think of anyone here that I met on the street would be political or racial affiliation, because it doesn't matter. Good people are good people. However, the media, and the government would have you think that people of a certain belief or race are lesser or greater than another. I don't buy that Shit. You can find greatness in every group.

In a world that is increasingly divided, why push division further? Why stress those divisions? Division is what causes hostility. Celebrating diversity is far different than separating people into groups. The United States is a nation of diversity, it's plan as the nose on the faces of most of us. Banding together as Americans, claiming our heritage as American first, and of X decent second is more important than running around screaming: I'm Irish! I was born in Virginia, and am proud of that, but my family came here in the 1800s from Ireland and Germany (father's side, mother's side was English and was banging Powhatans). I'm not Irish-American, or German-American. I'm simply an American. It's important to know where you came from, but that doesn't make you anything more than what you are today. I think that you'd find that it would be easier to be an individual and stand out, were these divisions not in existance.

3. I don't think the choice should be up to the children of illegals to live in this country or not, mostly because I think that anchor babies shouldn't be allowed. I think that you should be required to enter the country legally before you can pop out a kid and be planted here, however, a compromise can be made. For parents of children older than 1 year, they can be granted a place in line for citizenship, or they can leave with no penalty. They must follow all guidlines for said citizenship, and must prove a job, and place to live, as well as appropriate care for their child. They don't go to the front of the line, but they are in line.

For the rest of the illegals, they have 30 days to file for a Visa, or extention of expired Visa, and pay some punishment, or leave the country with no penalty. They only have to file within 30 days. The actual process can take months, and duiring that time period, they are allowed to stay in the country, as long as they have a valid address, speak English, or are learning to do so, and can be reached at anytime by INS. If they do not, and are found to be illegal upon pickup by athorities (federal, state, or local), their posessions are seized immediately, and are deported, along with anyone else living in their home.

The only decision to be made by anyone here illegally is this: Do I want to be an American, or do I want to be X? Choose one, and move along. There's no need to make millions of people exempt from breaking the law. That was tried back in the 80's, look how it's worked out. It failed. Hell, it did worse: It encouraged more people to break the law and enter our country illegally.
#61 Jun 26 2007 at 11:46 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
1. While I understand that assimilation takes time, the question that you're addressing wasn't asked.
[...]
2. The original point of this topic was not do debate immigration.
Roosevelt's speech was in direct response to the immigrant waves of the late 1800s which continued through the 1930s or so and the way they separated themselves from "mainstream" society.

Why those groups chose to separate themselves and what processes led them to largely integrate into "mainstream" society decades later seems particularly relevent for the debate.
Quote:
3. I don't think the choice should be up to the children of illegals to live in this country or not, mostly because I think that anchor babies shouldn't be allowed.
You'll need to get used to the idea because I don't see a chance in hell for the Constitution to be amended to change it.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#62 Jun 26 2007 at 11:46 AM Rating: Default
Jophiel wrote:
I'm doing my part to assimilate the Latinas!

If you're not part of the solution...

um, I doubt you can assimilate a whole ethnic group... it happens over time naturally; I think its a mistake to try and force assimilation on people who dont want to. The people who don't want to usually are the older people who want to hold onto their heritage, they'll die soon enough, don't worry.
#63 Jun 26 2007 at 11:48 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Lordofdogs wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I'm doing my part to assimilate the Latinas!

If you're not part of the solution...
um, I doubt you can assimilate a whole ethnic group... it happens over time naturally; I think its a mistake to try and force assimilation on people who dont want to. The people who don't want to usually are the older people who want to hold onto their heritage, they'll die soon enough, don't worry.
Smiley: dubious
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#64 Jun 26 2007 at 11:52 AM Rating: Decent
Lordofdogs wrote:
um, I doubt you can assimilate a whole ethnic group...


I think Flea might get crossed if he tried...

____________________________
My politics blog and stuff - Refractory
#65 Jun 26 2007 at 11:56 AM Rating: Default
Jophiel wrote:
Lordofdogs wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
I'm doing my part to assimilate the Latinas!

If you're not part of the solution...
um, I doubt you can assimilate a whole ethnic group... it happens over time naturally; I think its a mistake to try and force assimilation on people who dont want to. The people who don't want to usually are the older people who want to hold onto their heritage, they'll die soon enough, don't worry.
Smiley: dubious

let me ask, what are you doing to assimilate them?
#66 Jun 26 2007 at 11:58 AM Rating: Default
Jophiel wrote:
Quote:
3. I don't think the choice should be up to the children of illegals to live in this country or not, mostly because I think that anchor babies shouldn't be allowed.
You'll need to get used to the idea because I don't see a chance in hell for the Constitution to be amended to change it.

if they amend that then they would have to make it so every child born here isn't a citizen to keep that "men are equal" crap consistent.
#67 Jun 26 2007 at 11:58 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Marrying one?
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#68 Jun 26 2007 at 11:59 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
Just ignore him Joph, he'll go away eventually.


There are parts of the Constitution that I think should be amended, and the anchor baby clause is one of them. 200 Years ago things were far different. Our population was much smaller, and immigration wasn't an issue like it is today.

Our country is being overrun by illegal immigrants, plan and simple. I understand why they come here, and I support their effort to better themselves and care for their families, but there is still a right and wrong way to do things.

Jophiel wrote:
Why those groups chose to separate themselves and what processes led them to largely integrate into "mainstream" society decades later seems particularly relevent for the debate.


I'll give you that one. Doesn't change that we've lost our national identity and pride. We have become less concerned with who we are and what we stand for, and being proud of that, and more concerned with who's poking who, and where did great-great-great-great granpappy came from and claiming his home.
#69 Jun 26 2007 at 12:09 PM Rating: Default
Metastophicleas wrote:
Just ignore him Joph, he'll go away eventually.


There are parts of the Constitution that I think should be amended, and the anchor baby clause is one of them. 200 Years ago things were far different. Our population was much smaller, and immigration wasn't an issue like it is today.

wait, why is it an issue today?

if they become citizens what will they do, i dont think i remember hearing a valid reason for peoples hatred for them becoming citizens.
#70 Jun 26 2007 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
Lordofdogs wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Just ignore him Joph, he'll go away eventually.


There are parts of the Constitution that I think should be amended, and the anchor baby clause is one of them. 200 Years ago things were far different. Our population was much smaller, and immigration wasn't an issue like it is today.

wait, why is it an issue today?

if they become citizens what will they do, i dont think i remember hearing a valid reason for peoples hatred for them becoming citizens.


Ok, I'll play, but just this once. The problem isn't with them becoming citizens (which, had you the ability to comprehend, you'd know that by now, but you've proven by your posts that you don't), it's with illegals being here illegally.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

I'll leave it up to you to figure out the difference.
#71 Jun 26 2007 at 12:14 PM Rating: Default
Metastophicleas wrote:
Lordofdogs wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Just ignore him Joph, he'll go away eventually.


There are parts of the Constitution that I think should be amended, and the anchor baby clause is one of them. 200 Years ago things were far different. Our population was much smaller, and immigration wasn't an issue like it is today.

wait, why is it an issue today?

if they become citizens what will they do, i dont think i remember hearing a valid reason for peoples hatred for them becoming citizens.


Ok, I'll play, but just this once. The problem isn't with them becoming citizens (which, had you the ability to comprehend, you'd know that by now, but you've proven by your posts that you don't), it's with illegals being here illegally.

THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH LEGAL IMMIGRATION.

THERE IS SOMETHING WRONG WITH ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION.

I'll leave it up to you to figure out the difference.


then what is the problem with them becoming citizens????

that is my question, sorry if i used the wrong word mr Einstein.
#72 Jun 26 2007 at 12:15 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
/facepalm


This space reserved for when I am not so stunned at the stupidity of human kind.
#73 Jun 26 2007 at 12:16 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Metastophicleas wrote:
Doesn't change that we've lost our national identity and pride. We have become less concerned with who we are and what we stand for, and being proud of that, and more concerned with who's poking who, and where did great-great-great-great granpappy came from and claiming his home.
I really don't see that. At least, I don't see it in "mainstream" culture. Sure, I make references to my background, but I don't expect anything for it. The same is largely true with other assimilated ethnic groups.

The groups where you do see it are the ones still getting a raw deal from the "mainstream". I won't claim direct experience, but I'd assume it's difficult to take pride in your country when it's filled with people who call your parents criminals and blame them for unemployment, talk about how they should all be arrested and ***** about bus schedules being printed in Spanish. You want people to be "Americans"? Make them feel welcome in America and comfortable when they step out of their neighborhoods. You want them or their families to know that they aren't welcome? Fine, but don't follow it up with hundred year old speeches about how we should all embrace our national identity.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 3:19pm by Jophiel
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#74 Jun 26 2007 at 12:19 PM Rating: Default
Metastophicleas wrote:
/facepalm


This space reserved for when I am not so stunned at the stupidity of human kind.
I've never argued about illegals, i meant why shouldn't we open up our borders to them? instead of building a ******* god damn fence that is like a modern day wall of china (huge, expensive, but pointless because they can walk around it)
#75 Jun 26 2007 at 12:23 PM Rating: Default
Jophiel wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Doesn't change that we've lost our national identity and pride. We have become less concerned with who we are and what we stand for, and being proud of that, and more concerned with who's poking who, and where did great-great-great-great granpappy came from and claiming his home.
I really don't see that. At least, I don't see it in "mainstream" culture. Sure, I make references to my background, but I don't expect anything for it. The same is largely true with other assimilated ethnic groups.

The groups where you do see it are the ones still getting a raw deal from the "mainstream". I won't claim direct experience, but I'd assume it's difficult to take pride in your country when it's filled with people who call your parents criminals and blame them for unemployment, talk about how they should all be arrested and ***** about bus schedules being printed in Spanish. You want people to be "Americans"? Make them feel welcome in America and comfortable when they step out of their neighborhoods. You want them or their families to know that they aren't welcome? Fine, but don't follow it up with hundred year old speeches about how we should all embrace our national identity.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 3:19pm by Jophiel
the problem with being a national melting pot is that, unless people are educated enough to understand all the cultures (and probably languages) in that nation you will be feeling left out. I'm amazed that the people that demand people to learn English are the people that only know this language. I'm sure most developed countries demand their citizens to learn another language to be considered educated.
#76 Jun 26 2007 at 12:31 PM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
Jophiel wrote:
The groups where you do see it are the ones still getting a raw deal from the "mainstream". I won't claim direct experience, but I'd assume it's difficult to take pride in your country when it's filled with people who call your parents criminals and blame them for unemployment and ***** about bus schedules being printed in Spanish. You want people to be "Americans"? Make them feel welcome in America. You want them or their families to know that they aren't welcome? Fine, but don't follow it up with hundred year old speeches about hoe we should all embrace out national identity.


EXTREME EXAMPLE ALERT!

Would you say that a murderers or child molesters are getting a raw deal by society? What about someone who has multiple DUIs?

Not all illegals have done these things, but they all have one thing in common: They've broken the law. Should they get a pat on the back, and be told: That's ok ol' chap, no blood no foul, we'll let you slide this time (again).

It's not about making people feel unwelcome, it's about following the laws and guidelines of our country. Do you know what Mexico (for example) does to illegal immigrants?

Quote:
Article 123 of Mexico's population law states that "foreigners illegally entering the country will be subject to punishment of up to two years in prison" and fines of up to $28,220.
Source.

While the claim that such punishments are rare is listed, the fact remains, you can be punished. What isn't listed is that following any punishment that is ordered, you're deported back to your nation of origin.

I don't have a problem bring people that came here legally together, because we should all be united (in our love for country anyway). What I have a problem with is people jumping the border, and expecting to be treated as though they did nothing wrong. THAT'S the problem. Those people should be punished, and I'm sorry if you don't think this is the right thing to do, but their kids should follow them home, otherwise, they become wards of the state, and are eligible for adoption.

Edited, Jun 26th 2007 4:33pm by Metastophicleas
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 224 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (224)