It seems that in the global war on terror these words don't really fit anymore.
As the CIA goes on trial in Rome on the day G.W.Bush gets into town for a visit, i wonder what the reaction would be if it was Arab countries taking American TV avangellists prisoner for incited hatred against the Muslim world...
Is it any wonder that there are people around the world who feel threatened by America when People are snatched from the street and are beaten/Tortured with no trial or access to legal council.
For a country who's citizens are forever crying out about "Legal rights" of everything from single cell embryo's to convicted Murders on death row, there seems to be a bit of a blind spot when it comes to certain types of suspect.
The addage of innocent until proven guilty doesn't seem to apply.
Edited,for link fixiness!!! Thanks Joph.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 10:28am by tarv
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Baron von tarv wrote:
i wonder what the reaction would be if it was Arab countries taking American TV avangellists prisoner for incited hatred against the Muslim world...
By the way, your link was broken but I assume this was it. People have complained about/debated the use of secret prisons in Eastern Europe for some time now. In fact, I remember the irony that, a short time after Republicans got their panties knotted about Dick Durbin bringing up the spectre of Soviet gulags when speaking about our internment system, we find out that the CIA is using retired Soviet prisons in Poland, Bulgaria, Romania, the Czech Republic and other states.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 8:41am by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Butchering habeas corpus and due process, if Bush is remembered for anything he should be remembered for this.
America has gone to war over shoddy reasons in the past, politicians have done shady things like Plame before as well, poor government is nothing new. However his rape of perhaps one the core tenents of America, something just as fundamental as freedom of speech, it's perhaps the greatest disservice any president has done your country.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 9:42am by bodhisattva
America has gone to war over shoddy reasons in the past, politicians have done shady things like Plame before as well, poor government is nothing new. However his rape of perhaps one the core tenents of America, something just as fundamental as freedom of speech, it's perhaps the greatest disservice any president has done your country.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 9:42am by bodhisattva
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
I blame a lot on the idiot box and it's deconstruction of reasonable moral standards. It's a double edged sword as some really good stuff has come from television, but the media and reality TV is like a vice on the balls of independent thought and the things that we should actually focus on.
I could blame Bush for so much stuff, as everyone else could, but I stand by the simplistic: a man that does not read much at all, who neglects literature and a drive toward intellectualism, should not lead a nation. Funny what money can do though.
(Insert something directly on-topic here.)
I could blame Bush for so much stuff, as everyone else could, but I stand by the simplistic: a man that does not read much at all, who neglects literature and a drive toward intellectualism, should not lead a nation. Funny what money can do though.
(Insert something directly on-topic here.)
Decent economy? Check.
No new attacks on American Soil? Check.
I'm good. I don't know what the rest of you are complaining about. The rest of the world thinks we've gone off the deep end? F'uck 'em. Keep creating cheap labor and I don't care what you do. Europe is a dead zone and the EU is nothing more than a rotting corpse trying to reach out from the grave and entangle everyone else in it's vindictive need to justify it's existence. The day anyone in this country takes seriously anything a Canadian says will be the day they get out from under our petticoat and try standing up like big kids on their own two feet.
You all find it very easy to mouth off when its the U.S. keeping the world a safe place to have stupid-assed opinions in.
No new attacks on American Soil? Check.
I'm good. I don't know what the rest of you are complaining about. The rest of the world thinks we've gone off the deep end? F'uck 'em. Keep creating cheap labor and I don't care what you do. Europe is a dead zone and the EU is nothing more than a rotting corpse trying to reach out from the grave and entangle everyone else in it's vindictive need to justify it's existence. The day anyone in this country takes seriously anything a Canadian says will be the day they get out from under our petticoat and try standing up like big kids on their own two feet.
You all find it very easy to mouth off when its the U.S. keeping the world a safe place to have stupid-assed opinions in.
Tarv and Joph: Human rights and rights in general -Check
bodhi: Bush and how he will be known as the President that raped the constitution - check
Chand: Bush and ani-intellectualism - check
Moe the ****: I got money and no one has gone boom - check, check amd double check.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 3:58pm by GitSlayer
bodhi: Bush and how he will be known as the President that raped the constitution - check
Chand: Bush and ani-intellectualism - check
Moe the ****: I got money and no one has gone boom - check, check amd double check.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 3:58pm by GitSlayer
Ah. Yet another "let's mix in a bit of fact with a bunch of speculation, toss in some rhetoric and see if we can scare some people!!!".
Does the CIA operate detainment centers outside the US? Of course. Not to be obvious, but we operated them during the cold war too. It's not like this is something new that Bush set up (with pinky extended to mouth...).
Your odds of being picked up? Zero. Unless you happen to be an operative for a terrorist organization somewhere in the middle east that is. Then there's a small chance you might end up in one.
And not to be even more obvious, but neither habeus corpus nor due process apply in these cases. Never have.
Does the CIA operate detainment centers outside the US? Of course. Not to be obvious, but we operated them during the cold war too. It's not like this is something new that Bush set up (with pinky extended to mouth...).
Your odds of being picked up? Zero. Unless you happen to be an operative for a terrorist organization somewhere in the middle east that is. Then there's a small chance you might end up in one.
And not to be even more obvious, but neither habeus corpus nor due process apply in these cases. Never have.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
Does the CIA operate detainment centers outside the US? Of course. Not to be obvious, but we operated them during the cold war too. It's not like this is something new that Bush set up (with pinky extended to mouth...).
gbaji wrote:
Your odds of being picked up? Zero. Unless you happen to be a muslim or brown skinned
I love the way you set my mind at ease.
Tell me another story gbaji.
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
Quote:
Europe is a dead zone
Quote:
You all find it very easy to mouth off when its the U.S. keeping the world a safe place to have stupid-assed opinions in.
You don't get out much do you? Too much time on the sports channel??
Moe said
Quote:
No new attacks on American Soil? Check.
Captain of the Titanic said
Quote:
Iceberg! What fucking iceberg?
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.
Ease off Paulsol
At least they have the dollar (You know - the ones our kids now buy in 10 Kilogram bags to use when playing monopoly)
At least they have the dollar (You know - the ones our kids now buy in 10 Kilogram bags to use when playing monopoly)
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
gbaji wrote:
Does the CIA operate detainment centers outside the US? Of course. Not to be obvious, but we operated them during the cold war too.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Does the CIA operate detainment centers outside the US? Of course. Not to be obvious, but we operated them during the cold war too.
Poland is the new France...
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Meh.
Save Daifur!
Save Daifur!
Quote:
Your odds of being picked up? Zero. Unless you happen to be an operative for a terrorist organization somewhere in the middle east that is.
If you where using these camp to pick up terrorists with the purpose of bringing them to trial in the US on anti terrorism charges backed up with evidence of exactly why they where a threat you might have an argument.
So what exactly does this have to do with Paris Hilton again?
xtremereign wrote:
So what exactly does this have to do with Paris Hilton again?
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
Baron von tarv wrote:
Quote:
Your odds of being picked up? Zero. Unless you happen to be an operative for a terrorist organization somewhere in the middle east that is.
If you where using these camp to pick up terrorists with the purpose of bringing them to trial in the US on anti terrorism charges backed up with evidence of exactly why they where a threat you might have an argument.
Exactly what percentage of spies captured during the cold war had "commited crimes" and were charged for them?
You're mistaking this for a criminal justice issue. It's not. These people are not being detained so they can be charged and arrested for a crime. They are being detained because they are involved in groups planning to conduct attacks on US (or other) targets.
We don't charge POWs with crimes either. They don't get rights of habeus corpus or due process either. Same deal (but with even less protections then POWs get due to the nature of their status).
Stop trying to apply domestic criminal justice rules to something that is completely different.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
gbaji wrote:
These people are not being detained so they can be charged and arrested for a crime. They are being detained because they are involved in groups planning to conduct attacks on US (or other) targets.
I see, and the difference is...
It's bad enough when you're a normal idiot, but when you're an idiot justifying kidnapping random people in other countries and torturing them, then it's like almost sad.
Quote:
We don't charge POWs with crimes either. They don't get rights of habeus corpus or due process either. Same deal (but with even less protections then POWs get due to the nature of their status).
Prisoners are allowed a great many rights, and any Soldier controviening those rights are subject to very serious charges as certain allied forces have found out in Iraq.
Besides we are not even on the same ballpark as POW's here, for a start these people have not been taken from a theater of combat and are not "Combatants" in the sence they are not pointing weapons at the CIA people arresting them, they are taken from the street or from thier homes often on countries allied to the USA.
Stop dodging the issue with unrelated babble and admit that it is fundamentally wrong to detain people with no charge and torture them, especially when you have no evidence they have done anything wrong in the first place.
Quote:
You're mistaking this for a criminal justice issue. It's not. These people are not being detained so they can be charged and arrested for a crime. They are being detained because they are involved in groups planning to conduct attacks on US (or other) targets.
1. If they are involved with a plan to attack the USA, they are commiting an offence that they can be charged with in an American or British Court.
2. If 80% of people have commited no crime then it is likey they DON'T have any meaningful connection with said groups and ARE NOT planning any attack of any kind
3. By your arguement Vladimir Putin better watch out for CIA kidnapping squads because he probably has detailled plans to attack the USA, So does China, hell i bet even Britian has detailled attack plans for an attack on the USA.
Number 3 puts in persective how pathetic your arguement is, as it's on the same level.
Edited, Jun 8th 2007 9:21pm by tarv
Baron von tarv wrote:
Quote:
We don't charge POWs with crimes either. They don't get rights of habeus corpus or due process either. Same deal (but with even less protections then POWs get due to the nature of their status).
So are those being held in these detention centers.
Quote:
Prisoners are allowed a great many rights, and any Soldier controviening those rights are subject to very serious charges as certain allied forces have found out in Iraq.
Be clear. Prisoners of War are allowed a great many rights. They are granted those rights as a reward under the 3rd Geneva Convention in order to encourage people to resolve conflicts in ways that minimize the loss of innocent life.
Prisoners captured conducting warlike actions in violation of those ideals (that would be terrorists in case you are confused) are not afforded the same rights as POWs. Otherwise, there would be no point to having a reward, now would there?
Quote:
Besides we are not even on the same ballpark as POW's here, for a start these people have not been taken from a theater of combat and are not "Combatants" in the sence they are not pointing weapons at the CIA people arresting them, they are taken from the street or from thier homes often on countries allied to the USA.
No. The people detained there are being captured in Iraq and Afghanistan. Not picked up in a mosque in the US for example. You are confusing two different things (not surprising since the article's author did the same thing). There's those that the US government detains and holds (who are all captued in countries we are currently engaged in "war" in). Then there are those who are picked up and *deported* to their country of origin. Like the Eqyptian citizen who was *gasp* deported to his home country.
Two different issues. When you blend them like that you create a perception that we're picking people up in Candada, the US, and Britain and scurrying them off to hidden detention centers in Poland whereever else. Absolutely not true.
Quote:
Stop dodging the issue with unrelated babble and admit that it is fundamentally wrong to detain people with no charge and torture them, especially when you have no evidence they have done anything wrong in the first place.
You're correct. It's fundamentally wrong to detain people with no charge and torture them. It is *not fundamentally wrong to detain people with no charge though. You have yet to prove the torture part. Hence, your argument falls apart. It's nice speculation, but how about we find some evidence of this instead of flying about on inuendo?
Quote:
Quote:
You're mistaking this for a criminal justice issue. It's not. These people are not being detained so they can be charged and arrested for a crime. They are being detained because they are involved in groups planning to conduct attacks on US (or other) targets.
1. If they are involved with a plan to attack the USA, they are commiting an offence that they can be charged with in an American or British Court.
No. They are not. A foreigner commiting an act of war against the US is *not* committing a crime within the US. He's an enemy. He can be detained and held "for the duration" of the conflict. Depending on his actions, he may face varying conditions. And he can certainly risk dying while actively engaged in said operations. However, he most certainly is *not* a criminal.
Not in the sense of habeus corpus, due process, etc. You are horribly confused if you think so.
Quote:
2. If 80% of people have commited no crime then it is likey they DON'T have any meaningful connection with said groups and ARE NOT planning any attack of any kind
100% of all POWs have committed no crime. Yet they are held without charge, without trial, and without hope of release until the conflict is resolved in some way. Your argument is flawed.
Your problem is that you are ascribing the general term "crime" to any act of violence/harm. But in the legal sense, that's not the case. A soldier fighting for his country is not committing a crime. He cannot be charged with murder in fact, even though he may have killed thousands of people.
Thus, you cannot assume that because someone has not committed a "crime", that they cannot be detained legally.
Quote:
3. By your arguement Vladimir Putin better watch out for CIA kidnapping squads because he probably has detailled plans to attack the USA, So does China, hell i bet even Britian has detailled attack plans for an attack on the USA.
And if we were willing to go to war with those respective countries, it would be completely legal for us to find and detain leaders of their military and detain them. Not sure what you think your point is here. It's a matter of a declaration of war and willingness to fight that war that matters.
Hence, why it's *not* a criminal justice issue. In exactly the way that when we declared war on Germany, we authorized our soldiers to kill german soldiers without risk of criminal charges (for either side). You seem to have a very poor understanding of the rules and processes involved in war.
Quote:
Number 3 puts in persective how pathetic your arguement is, as it's on the same level.
Nah. It puts in perspective just how much you don't understand this issue.
How about you actually read the Geneva Conventions? Especially Conventions number 3 and number 4. You might actually learn something about what governments can and cannot do with regard to foreign fighters.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Quote:
So are those being held in these detention centers.
Quote:
No. The people detained there are being captured in Iraq and Afghanistan.
Quote:
You have yet to prove the torture part.
Dress it up all you want torture is torture.
Quote:
It is *not fundamentally wrong to detain people with no charge though.
Quote:
Nah. It puts in perspective just how much you don't understand this issue.
Edited, Jun 9th 2007 9:16am by tarv
Baron von tarv wrote:
FFS at least read the article you are trying (Unsucessfully) to debunk.
For as many times as Gbaji tries to pull the "Why don't actually read up on..." card regarding some side issue to pretend that he has some knowledge of the topic, it's always funny to see that he doesn't know shit about the topic in question and is just parroting some party line.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Guess your military and politicians don't read this forum, as they seem to be a bit too 'liberal' for some of your tastes. 
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1153AP_Guantanamo_Detainees.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10712485
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1153AP_Guantanamo_Detainees.html
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=10712485
Kelanthor, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
Ian Anderson avatard and some words
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
I thought I was at the late '74 gig in Edinburgh where it was taken, but as he wore similar costumes and struck similar poses all through the 'War Child' tours, could be tricky to pin it down!
Kelanthor, Guardian of the Glade wrote:
I thought I was at the late '74 gig in Edinburgh where it was taken, but as he wore similar costumes and struck similar poses all through the 'War Child' tours, could be tricky to pin it down!
Either way, he could sing back then.
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
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