First and foremost, Im not doing a pity party, Im not complaining, but I am open for any advice you guys may have if you have personal knowledge and/or experience. I just came back from a visit to the Dr about Xavier's behavior. Since he was three we've had some issues on attitude, inability to perform simple instructions due to lack of focus, and sometimes violent defiant behavior. For the past two years, Sickabilly and I have been trying to figure out how to help him learn better strategies, strongly enforcing that violence is never ever allowed, and trying to deal with an ever increasing defiant attitude to any type of authority. We've done everything under the sun we could think of, we've stayed consistent with actions and consequences, and worked hard to really praise positive behavior in the hopes that it would sink in that positive behavior is worth trying for. Unfortunately things have just steadily declined.
It got worse a month after Ashe was born. Fortunately his issues are focused on me, and not his brother. In fact he adores his brother so much I would trust him implicitly with him. But I've watched him get more defiant, more physical to me, and when he's home. his dad.
Sickabilly and I have been questioning if its somehow something we had inadvertantly taught him as he grew, even though I have worked my *** off to keep my normally quick temper to almost never showing. I spend a lot of time cooling off in the garage, but 99% of the time Ive been able to keep my cool during hard times.
It's been mentioned to the Dr before during check ups to which he's always said to see what happens with time. But we went in today with 4 pages of basic outlines on whats going on and I went over our concerns. After reviewing everything it's basically come down to the Dr believing my son may have a severe case of ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). He cant officially diagnose it, but has referred me to someone who can. I've called to get an apt already. Im just waiting to hear back.
Xavier would come by it naturally, I suppose. I have a slight case of ADD, my brother had a severe case of ADD, and my father had it as well. I'm both relieved and upset. Relieved because I can put my mind at ease after being told that Sickabilly and I have gone above and beyond what most parents would do in this situation, and that it is nothing we have fostered. I know there is an answer and help coming, in the form of parenting classes for kids with ADHD, and strategies to help my son cope. Im upset because I know that if this is truly the diagnoses, my son will have an upwards battle to deal with for the rest of his life. It could be worse. It always could be. But that doesnt stop me from hurting for him.
Any of you parents out there have a child with ADHD/ADD/ODD? Anyone have it? Anything you guys can share that may help my son, and myself for dealing with this as best we can, on a day to day basis? Im not looking for "go to a Dr." Im seeking small things that can help throughout the day, besides picking up smoking a pack a day for me to relieve stress, and for him to learn to cope with this.
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An answer I didn't want to hearFollow
#2REDACTED,
Posted: May 16 2007 at 12:00 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) So you've decided to give up on parenting and drug your child?
DSD wrote:
Im not looking for "go to a Dr." Im seeking small things that can help throughout the day, besides picking up smoking a pack a day for me to relieve stress, and for him to learn to cope with this.
Use your instincts to pick the right time to ignore attention-seeking behavioUr, the right time to give hugs and affection, and the right times to use your punishment of choice ('naughty step', 'go to your room', banning favoUrite games/toys or 'Do we want to play with Mr Spiked Leather Strap?').
Easy to say, and not always obvious what's the right time, but those are the only things that I can confidently say turned behavioUr round in the long term.
The former Mrs Nobby and I shared a view on avoiding medication unless necessary, and while the above can drive you to distraction, it seems to have been the most effective in terms of the ankle-biter's wellbeing.
On the other hand, the Japanese seem to have developed a highly effective solution based on a simple box
What is "naughty step"?
Grandfather Barkingturtle wrote:
What is "naughty step"?
Yes, being evil helps
achileez wrote:
So you've decided to give up on parenting and drug your child?
Here's a thought; how about your husband find a sport they both can enjoy and direct that aggression in that direction.
Varus
Edited, May 16th 2007 4:02pm by achileez
Here's a thought; how about your husband find a sport they both can enjoy and direct that aggression in that direction.
Varus
Edited, May 16th 2007 4:02pm by achileez
point out where I said anything about drugging my child. A possible diagnosis does not always lead to medicines. Not that I need to explain anything to you, but I'm actually anti meds unless it is absolutely the last resort, and made that quite clear to the Dr whom agrees with me.
You seem to misunderstand what a biological disorder is. Of course, Im not surprised in the slightest.
I think I see what the problem is.
He's five.
Right?
I'd think it difficult to expect a young child to be well-behaved all the time...
He's five.
Right?
I'd think it difficult to expect a young child to be well-behaved all the time...
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
My neice has ODD. It's really hard to deal with. Basically they will do anything they can to create a situation they can control. If you say something they will automatically go against it, even if it's just a correction on wording or something. They have to have control of the situation.
This is going to sound weird but the way to deal with it is to actually give them the decisions to make. It's really hard, particularly with certain issues, but they are going to make the decision anyways so what you want to do is say "Should we have chicken or roast for dinner?" they'll say "It's roast beef, not roast" you say "oh yeah you're right! Is that what you want?" and let them choose. Your basically making the decision but letting them think that they did. This way they feel like they have control of the situation and learn to make decisions without having to be defiant.
Being firm with a child with ODD actually has the opposite effect of what it should, so it's really not an option. You have to outwit them.
The idea is let them win. That's what they want, so what you do is form the situation in a way that them winning is actually what you want. Takes a bit of a knack, but it works.
This is going to sound weird but the way to deal with it is to actually give them the decisions to make. It's really hard, particularly with certain issues, but they are going to make the decision anyways so what you want to do is say "Should we have chicken or roast for dinner?" they'll say "It's roast beef, not roast" you say "oh yeah you're right! Is that what you want?" and let them choose. Your basically making the decision but letting them think that they did. This way they feel like they have control of the situation and learn to make decisions without having to be defiant.
Being firm with a child with ODD actually has the opposite effect of what it should, so it's really not an option. You have to outwit them.
The idea is let them win. That's what they want, so what you do is form the situation in a way that them winning is actually what you want. Takes a bit of a knack, but it works.
Mr. Thumb and I have have bumped heads on this issue over our younger son, Steven. Steven has, at times, been hard-headed, obstinate, argumentative and needing an attitude adjustment. But it was never consistent. Hubby took Steven in for an evaluation and which time the military doctors diagnosed him as ADHD and prescribed Ritalin. I completely disagreed with the doctors. Steven's behavior is different, depending on who's with him. When he's with me, he knows what the boundaries are, but with others, including his dad, he'll push the boundaries and keeps pushing until he gets in trouble. And there was a high rate of ADD/ADHD diagnoses in the area we were living in which led me to think that ADD/ADHD was used as a "catch-all" instead of just applying some discipline.
And when Steven started taking Ritalin, my hubby swore he saw a difference in his behavior. I didn't. And my radar went up even more when Steven would misbehave and swear it was because he didn't take his medicine. I refuse to allow my son to use a pill as the excuse on why he flipped the bird to someone.
I don't know what to tell you as I'm still trying to figure out what's going on. I can't think that just because a pill a day is going to get my son to "calm down." He has other health issues that I really think are the bottom of it and the military doctors ignored those factors.
And when Steven started taking Ritalin, my hubby swore he saw a difference in his behavior. I didn't. And my radar went up even more when Steven would misbehave and swear it was because he didn't take his medicine. I refuse to allow my son to use a pill as the excuse on why he flipped the bird to someone.
I don't know what to tell you as I'm still trying to figure out what's going on. I can't think that just because a pill a day is going to get my son to "calm down." He has other health issues that I really think are the bottom of it and the military doctors ignored those factors.
I know he's five and for a long time I chalked it up to an exuberant boy. But there comes a time when you have to realize that there might be something more. As a good parent, you observe, note, and if you have concerns, you call someone who may be able to help you by giving you information and advice as an outside source. Many times you as a parent are wrapped up in the day to day living that you may not notice glaring signs that others outside the box can. I wasnt going in today expecting this, although I should have. I was more expecting the Dr to say, "yup, you got a kid whos stressed with a new little brother in the house. Here's some really good ideas to implement in the house and see if it helps him."
Yodabunny wrote:
My neice has ODD. It's really hard to deal with. Basically they will do anything they can to create a situation they can control. If you say something they will automatically go against it, even if it's just a correction on wording or something. They have to have control of the situation.
This is going to sound weird but the way to deal with it is to actually give them the decisions to make. It's really hard, particularly with certain issues, but they are going to make the decision anyways so what you want to do is say "Should we have chicken or roast for dinner?" they'll say "It's roast beef, not roast" you say "oh yeah you're right! Is that what you want?" and let them choose. Your basically making the decision but letting them think that they did. This way they feel like they have control of the situation and learn to make decisions without having to be defiant.
Being firm with a child with ODD actually has the opposite effect of what it should, so it's really not an option. You have to outwit them.
The idea is let them win. That's what they want, so what you do is form the situation in a way that them winning is actually what you want. Takes a bit of a knack, but it works.
This is going to sound weird but the way to deal with it is to actually give them the decisions to make. It's really hard, particularly with certain issues, but they are going to make the decision anyways so what you want to do is say "Should we have chicken or roast for dinner?" they'll say "It's roast beef, not roast" you say "oh yeah you're right! Is that what you want?" and let them choose. Your basically making the decision but letting them think that they did. This way they feel like they have control of the situation and learn to make decisions without having to be defiant.
Being firm with a child with ODD actually has the opposite effect of what it should, so it's really not an option. You have to outwit them.
The idea is let them win. That's what they want, so what you do is form the situation in a way that them winning is actually what you want. Takes a bit of a knack, but it works.
the bolded part sounds like my son to a T. It actually kind of unnerved me since I hadnt even heard of this before.
Thats a good idea and I'll definitely give it a whirl. Rate up and thanks.
Anytime. My family is full of mental issues.
DSD wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
My neice has ODD. It's really hard to deal with. Basically they will do anything they can to create a situation they can control. If you say something they will automatically go against it, even if it's just a correction on wording or something. They have to have control of the situation.
This is going to sound weird but the way to deal with it is to actually give them the decisions to make. It's really hard, particularly with certain issues, but they are going to make the decision anyways so what you want to do is say "Should we have chicken or roast for dinner?" they'll say "It's roast beef, not roast" you say "oh yeah you're right! Is that what you want?" and let them choose. Your basically making the decision but letting them think that they did. This way they feel like they have control of the situation and learn to make decisions without having to be defiant.
Being firm with a child with ODD actually has the opposite effect of what it should, so it's really not an option. You have to outwit them.
The idea is let them win. That's what they want, so what you do is form the situation in a way that them winning is actually what you want. Takes a bit of a knack, but it works.
This is going to sound weird but the way to deal with it is to actually give them the decisions to make. It's really hard, particularly with certain issues, but they are going to make the decision anyways so what you want to do is say "Should we have chicken or roast for dinner?" they'll say "It's roast beef, not roast" you say "oh yeah you're right! Is that what you want?" and let them choose. Your basically making the decision but letting them think that they did. This way they feel like they have control of the situation and learn to make decisions without having to be defiant.
Being firm with a child with ODD actually has the opposite effect of what it should, so it's really not an option. You have to outwit them.
The idea is let them win. That's what they want, so what you do is form the situation in a way that them winning is actually what you want. Takes a bit of a knack, but it works.
the bolded part sounds like my son to a T. It actually kind of unnerved me since I hadnt even heard of this before.
Thats a good idea and I'll definitely give it a whirl. Rate up and thanks.
My only fear of that is: Does that lead your child to think that he/she's always right, no matter what? And when they get older, will they be able to recognize other people's needs/wants?
I don't have anything helpful to add unfortunately, DSD, but you do have my admiration for trying as hard as you have. It's good to hear that he can be trusted around Ashe.
Reading this makes me wonder why my sister in law never took my nephew to get examined. Or maybe she did and never told us what the result was. My nephew is very rough and I remember once there was this "issue" when they came over to visit where my nephew told her "I wish you were dead!" and it was a pretty unprovoked attack on her. I think he was like 6 at the time. We are always uncomfortable to have our kids around him. =\
Reading this makes me wonder why my sister in law never took my nephew to get examined. Or maybe she did and never told us what the result was. My nephew is very rough and I remember once there was this "issue" when they came over to visit where my nephew told her "I wish you were dead!" and it was a pretty unprovoked attack on her. I think he was like 6 at the time. We are always uncomfortable to have our kids around him. =\
Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
My only fear of that is: Does that lead your child to think that he/she's always right, no matter what? And when they get older, will they be able to recognize other people's needs/wants?
DSD wrote:
I was more expecting the Dr to say, "yup, you got a kid whos stressed with a new little brother in the house. Here's some really good ideas to implement in the house and see if it helps him."
In our case, she was quickly able to tell me that the one red flag she looks for is aggressive, manipulative behavior in an otherwise well-educated kid, because most kids don't do this naturally, although she did stress that it doesn't necessairily mean you have a bad kid, just one that may need help with his biology. She also gave me good tips on how to speak to Jr, what to emphasize, etc. If you give me details, I can run them by her if you like.
Otherwise, my heart goes out to you. I know you've done the best you possibly can. Don't let folks make you feel bad about exploring all possibilities. You never know what will help.
Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
My only fear of that is: Does that lead your child to think that he/she's always right, no matter what? And when they get older, will they be able to recognize other people's needs/wants?
They already do and that won't change until they can rationalize real life concequences (teenage years I think). Getting in trouble isn't a concequence of their decision because they didn't get to make the decision (which is why they're in trouble). They will always think they are right until they make the decision and it doesn't work the way they want it too. The condition basically makes it impossible for them to know they are wrong until they see the result of their actions. Once they have some life experience it will get easier for them.
They already recognize other peoples needs and wants. They just feel the need to control any situation they are in and can't just let things happen. They have to be in charge.
Keep in mind he hasn't been diagnosed yet, it could be nothing, it could just be his personality.
Edited, May 16th 2007 4:41pm by Yodabunny
I have nothing particularly helpful to add hon, except that I wish you and Zavi the best and I know you're a great mom and will do the right thing.
Nexa
Nexa
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.â€
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
achileez wrote:
DSD,
It's not biological it's behavioral; there's a difference. The kids bored; what did you think of my suggestion?
It's not biological it's behavioral; there's a difference. The kids bored; what did you think of my suggestion?
And you base this diagnosis on what, exactly, Dr. Okra?
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
Obviously I'm not a parent of an ADD child (yet) but it's quite possible it could happen, considering the disposition toward ADD is genetic and I have it. I wasn't diagnosed until I was nearly 30 years old, and I wish to God I had been, because if it had been caught in my childhood, there are so many things that could have been better for me.
All I can say is that Xavier is very fortunate this is being detected early, because undiagnosed it can lead to a lifetime of co-morbidities, including depression and substance abuse. ADD is an actual physical problem, where there are insufficient dopamine receptors in the neurons in the brain (dopamine being the neurotransmitter that basically tells the brain, "hey, pay attention, this is interesting.") Undiagnosed people often develop a tendency to self-medicate with intoxicants, which boost dopamine production and thus flood the limited number of receptors, providing the stimulation that is otherwise lacking. I strongly suspect this is at least part of my mother's issues with substance abuse.
The depression is a bit trickier. Part of it stems from the inability to find things sufficiently stimulations, but a lot more derives from all the negative cognitions an undiagnosed person will develop about him/herself. "I'm lazy," "I'm a spaz," "I'm not a good listener," "I'm stupid," "I have no self-control," "I'm naughty" etc etc etc. It can really do a huge number on a person's self-esteem, which then can also feed back into the tendancy toward substance abuse.
It doesn't necessarily require medication--some studies indicate that learning coping techniques can be as effective if not moreso in certain cases. But either way, the earlier you catch it and begin working on it, the better off the person is going to be in the long run.
Good luck, DSD. I know this is hard news to accept, but really it's better to get it now than later.
All I can say is that Xavier is very fortunate this is being detected early, because undiagnosed it can lead to a lifetime of co-morbidities, including depression and substance abuse. ADD is an actual physical problem, where there are insufficient dopamine receptors in the neurons in the brain (dopamine being the neurotransmitter that basically tells the brain, "hey, pay attention, this is interesting.") Undiagnosed people often develop a tendency to self-medicate with intoxicants, which boost dopamine production and thus flood the limited number of receptors, providing the stimulation that is otherwise lacking. I strongly suspect this is at least part of my mother's issues with substance abuse.
The depression is a bit trickier. Part of it stems from the inability to find things sufficiently stimulations, but a lot more derives from all the negative cognitions an undiagnosed person will develop about him/herself. "I'm lazy," "I'm a spaz," "I'm not a good listener," "I'm stupid," "I have no self-control," "I'm naughty" etc etc etc. It can really do a huge number on a person's self-esteem, which then can also feed back into the tendancy toward substance abuse.
It doesn't necessarily require medication--some studies indicate that learning coping techniques can be as effective if not moreso in certain cases. But either way, the earlier you catch it and begin working on it, the better off the person is going to be in the long run.
Good luck, DSD. I know this is hard news to accept, but really it's better to get it now than later.
Sommelier wrote:
Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
My only fear of that is: Does that lead your child to think that he/she's always right, no matter what? And when they get older, will they be able to recognize other people's needs/wants?
I would think that allowing a child to win everytime would most definitely raise a concern for this thought. At the same time, allowing a child to win small, nonconsequential battles more often might at least alleviate some of the nonstop battles. Any child around this age likes to try out independance more, but Xavier seems to take it to an extreme, to the point that literally anything I request from him is an immediate NO! before he even really gives it a chance to understand what it is Im asking.varus, keep posting. One small silver lining in my day is being able to rate you down as you spew BS you have no idea about. As for your suggestion on a sport, it's already been implemented awhile ago.
I googled some things, hope it helps.
Non-Medical Interventions for ADHD
Common treatement meds and side effects
Quote:
Listed below are DSM-IV symptoms for ODD:
1. often loses temper;
2. often argues with adults;
3. often actively defies or refuses to comply with adult requests or rules;
4. often deliberately annoys people;
5. often blames others for mistakes or misbehavior;
6. is often touchy or easily annoyed by others;
7. is often angry and resentful;
8. is often spiteful and vindictive;
For ODD to be an appropriate diagnosis, at least 4 of the symptoms listed above must be present for at least 6 months; the behavior must occur more frequently than is typical child of comparable age, and the behavior must create significant impairment in a child's social or academic functioning. In addition, the oppositional behavior can not occur only during times when a child is depressed.
An important difference that you will note from the symptoms of ADHD is that none of the ADHD symptoms involve behavior that is considered to be deliberate and willful. Although children with ADHD often engage in behavior that annoy others and fail to follow through on requests, such behavior is generally not deliberately and willfully initiated.
The kinds of difficulties that are associated with ODD are critically important to bring under control as soon as possible, because such behavior becomes more entrenched and difficult to change the longer it persists. In addition, children with ODD are at significant risk for the development of the more severe kinds of behavioral disturbance that is characteristic of Conduct Disorder, and the long term outcomes for children with Conduct Disorder are especially worrisome.
1. often loses temper;
2. often argues with adults;
3. often actively defies or refuses to comply with adult requests or rules;
4. often deliberately annoys people;
5. often blames others for mistakes or misbehavior;
6. is often touchy or easily annoyed by others;
7. is often angry and resentful;
8. is often spiteful and vindictive;
For ODD to be an appropriate diagnosis, at least 4 of the symptoms listed above must be present for at least 6 months; the behavior must occur more frequently than is typical child of comparable age, and the behavior must create significant impairment in a child's social or academic functioning. In addition, the oppositional behavior can not occur only during times when a child is depressed.
An important difference that you will note from the symptoms of ADHD is that none of the ADHD symptoms involve behavior that is considered to be deliberate and willful. Although children with ADHD often engage in behavior that annoy others and fail to follow through on requests, such behavior is generally not deliberately and willfully initiated.
The kinds of difficulties that are associated with ODD are critically important to bring under control as soon as possible, because such behavior becomes more entrenched and difficult to change the longer it persists. In addition, children with ODD are at significant risk for the development of the more severe kinds of behavioral disturbance that is characteristic of Conduct Disorder, and the long term outcomes for children with Conduct Disorder are especially worrisome.
Non-Medical Interventions for ADHD
Common treatement meds and side effects
Crappy news, DSD. I hope you get some answers and solutions.
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
Debalic wrote:
achileez wrote:
DSD,
It's not biological it's behavioral; there's a difference. The kids bored; what did you think of my suggestion?
It's not biological it's behavioral; there's a difference. The kids bored; what did you think of my suggestion?
And you base this diagnosis on what, exactly, Dr. Okra?
Al always, Virus has no idea what he's talking about. While ADHD is sometimes overdiagnosed and has become a catch-all for dealing with rambunctious children, there are true cases. Those true cases are, in fact, biological--or more specifically, neurological--in origin. It's the result of a genetic defect in which the brain lacks sufficient receptors for the neurotransmitter dopamine.
Virus needs to go back to farming his pigs and leave the discussion of educated topics to educated people.
DSD wrote:
Sommelier wrote:
Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
My only fear of that is: Does that lead your child to think that he/she's always right, no matter what? And when they get older, will they be able to recognize other people's needs/wants?
I would think that allowing a child to win everytime would most definitely raise a concern for this thought. At the same time, allowing a child to win small, nonconsequential battles more often might at least alleviate some of the nonstop battles. Any child around this age likes to try out independance more, but Xavier seems to take it to an extreme, to the point that literally anything I request from him is an immediate NO! before he even really gives it a chance to understand what it is Im asking.
You're right. That's exactly where I was going with my poorly worded posts :). There are things that you can't budge on. Those are the things you have to kind of trick them into wanting (I don't mean bribes). If you can't do that then yes it'll be a battle but there's nothing more you can do.
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