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#1 May 14 2007 at 11:07 PM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
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You can't possibly know whether or not the government of Iraq would have worked or not. Your wonderous politicians never gave it a chance to work...


Is it fair to ask for the unending support of a situation that has in fact worsened as time has gone along?

2 years of transitional gov't before the elections. Coming up on two years since they elected their own govt and made their own constitution. Umpteen billion dollars spent. There has been 4 years of work with next to no tangible quantifiable results. However the list of failures and set backs stretches out longer Tot3ms alabama blacksnake.

The Iraqi Diaspora has increased to 1.8 million displaced people. Attempts at expanding infrastructure have been met with looting, vandalism and inaction on the iraqi gov't part according to auditors. The gov't is worse than ineffectual and subject to the whims of militants and muslim extremists. The Iraqi army is bleeding recruits and supplies often going to the insurgent side supplying them with arms and members with US military training.

If something has been unsuccessful for 4 years and worse shows no signs of being successful in 4 more is it ludicrous to keep asking us to 'stay the course'?

Edited, May 15th 2007 3:07am by bodhisattva
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#2 May 14 2007 at 11:42 PM Rating: Good
Is that a gbaji joke?
#3 May 15 2007 at 12:50 AM Rating: Default
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If something has been unsuccessful for 4 years and worse shows no signs of being successful in 4 more is it ludicrous to keep asking us to 'stay the course'?


But, but..they never said 'mission accomplished' 'stay the course' 'it'l be a cakewalk' 'welcome us with sweets and flowers'....Oh crap! What is it they didn't say again?


Glad to see that the 'throw even more violence at the problem' surge is going so well tho....
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#4 May 15 2007 at 4:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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I came across this site, Iraq Index Archive by the left-slanting Brookings Institution (for the sake of disclosure), last night which gives a fairly dispassionate report on how Iraq is coming along in terms of violence, government action, citizen polling, infrastructure, number of doctors, etc etc. In a sense it's more of the same because most people know how fucked up it is over there but it has lots of charts and graphs and data to back itself up and isn't biased solely towards "The war sucks!"

Edited, May 15th 2007 7:34am by Jophiel
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#5 May 15 2007 at 6:12 AM Rating: Decent
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I think they should just airlift a butt ton of pot and drop it prerolled with parachutes all over the country. I mean really, how many pissed off pot heads have you met?
#6 May 15 2007 at 6:42 AM Rating: Decent
Yodabunny wrote:
I think they should just airlift a butt ton of pot and drop it prerolled with parachutes all over the country. I mean really, how many pissed off pot heads have you met?


Yea, cause that would work. Smiley: rolleyes

You do know they have more Opium then you can shake a stick at next door, right?

Edited, May 15th 2007 9:43am by Kaelesh
#7 May 15 2007 at 6:44 AM Rating: Good
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Kaelesh wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
I think they should just airlift a butt ton of pot and drop it prerolled with parachutes all over the country. I mean really, how many pissed off pot heads have you met?


Yea, cause that would work. Smiley: rolleyes

You do know they have more Opium then you can shake a stick at next door, right?

Edited, May 15th 2007 9:43am by Kaelesh


Actually it is two doors over.
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#8 May 15 2007 at 6:56 AM Rating: Decent
bodhisattva wrote:
Kaelesh wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
I think they should just airlift a butt ton of pot and drop it prerolled with parachutes all over the country. I mean really, how many pissed off pot heads have you met?


Yea, cause that would work. Smiley: rolleyes

You do know they have more Opium then you can shake a stick at next door, right?


Actually it is two doors over.


But I'm told by some of my old buddies from the Marines that Iraqi hash is fantastic.
#9 May 15 2007 at 6:58 AM Rating: Good
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Another point I didn't bring up in the OP which is a vital point in the argument, the failings of the Bush administration in handling the war. Rumsfeld's dissolution of the Republican Guard, failure to communicate with the intelligence community, failure/unwillingness to gather regional help in supporting the new Iraqi gov't, failure in gauging potential pit falls (ie iraqi public opinion on occupation), the poor communications between those on the ground in Iraq and the administration in Washington (Bremer ftl), etc.

At multiple times throughout the whole ordeal the administration has made rather large and unnecessary failures in judgement. Failures that can't be attributed to 'hindsight is 20/20' but rather to the entirely avoidable failings of the administration that occurred only because of the administrations unwillingness and inability to consider certain options.

A lot of these mistakes have helped lead to the rise and success of the insurgency and aggravated a myriad of crisis that have plagued Iraq for the last 4 years.

So the Bush administration has repeatedly and unequivocably shown its ineptitude in handling the situation over the last 4 years. If their solution to rectify the problem caused by their failings is to implement the exact same plan as before and to once again ask for more time, how foolish is it to simply go along with it? To quote GW himself "There's an old saying in Tennessee — I know it's in Texas, probably in Tennessee — that says, fool me once, shame on — shame on you. Fool me — you can't get fooled again."

Edited, May 15th 2007 11:00am by bodhisattva
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#10 May 15 2007 at 7:03 AM Rating: Excellent
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Silly Bhodi, it's all the Democrats' fault.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#11 May 15 2007 at 7:13 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Silly Bhodi, it's all the Democrats' fault.


Which is what it boils down to. People are fed up with the mess that Bush created. There is mounting public pressure to change the way we approach Iraq, whether that is troop withdrawal or intensive pressure on the Iraqi gov't to shape up depends on who you talk too. The need for a new approach is apparent the discussion now is what that approach should be.

Bush will distance himself from 'stay the course' all while actually 'staying the course' because the reality is he is incapable of any other approach. He will ride out his presidency and let his successor deal with the fall out, because he has and always will be unable to take the responsibility of leadership (the sh'itty part where you have to step up and take ownership of your own failings) despite his repeated claims that he is the type of person who does take responsibility.

Even in the face of 5+ years of absolutely no gains or results with his handling of Iraq he will claim 'if only they had given it a little longer I am sure it would have cleared up'. It really f'ucking irks me. All the US troops lives wasted because Bush is too much of a coward to own up to his failures and would rather leave the problem for someone else to deal with.
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#12 May 15 2007 at 7:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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What is that saying? "The definition of insanity is to continue repeating the same action, expecting different results"? Something like that.
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#13 May 15 2007 at 7:46 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
What is that saying? "The definition of insanity is to continue repeating the same action, expecting different results"? Something like that.


That is a more concise way of putting it, except you missed the part where I called Bush a chickensh'it Smiley: wink

Though the republicans are trying to sell it as new thanks to the leadership of Abizaid. This however fails to recognize that the only solution is political at this point and that the military is only there to provide the modicum of security needed to enact the political work that needs to be done. And since the political wing of the whole process is still under the same inept turds as before, it is still more of the same.
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#14 May 15 2007 at 8:43 AM Rating: Decent
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The whole country (Iraq) is being run by warlords. Legitimately. That's wrong. If you had decent people in the government things would shape up pretty quick, but noooo, you have to put the people with the power in the government seats.

What they need to do is get in there, build a billion homes, a million modern hospitals, water treatment plants etc. Feed everyone and get them all jobs, once everyone is happy with their lives they'll start to calm down. You don't fight terrorism by terrorizing people. I don't know about you but if I saw big *** tanks driving down my street everyday while I try to figure out where I'm going to get some clean water now that my house has been blown up I'd be pretty pissed off too. That's where your terrorist organizations come from.

Get rid of the combat fatigues and give the soldiers decent looking suits with pretty gold name tags, and have them drive in trucks full of cool stuff. That's how you're going to win this war, and a case of water costs about as much as a bullet. Win the people over and you'll have noone left to fight.
#15 May 15 2007 at 9:35 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
What they need to do is get in there, build a billion homes, a million modern hospitals, water treatment plants etc. Feed everyone and get them all jobs, once everyone is happy with their lives they'll start to calm down.
Handouts!!!

No, seriously. You have to be fucking kidding me, sunshine.
#16 May 15 2007 at 9:38 AM Rating: Good
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Atomicflea wrote:
Yodabunny wrote:
What they need to do is get in there, build a billion homes, a million modern hospitals, water treatment plants etc. Feed everyone and get them all jobs, once everyone is happy with their lives they'll start to calm down.
Handouts!!!

No, seriously. You have to be fucking kidding me, sunshine.


Smiley: lol
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#17 May 15 2007 at 9:45 AM Rating: Good
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Yodabunny wrote:
The whole country (Iraq) is being run by warlords. Legitimately. That's wrong. If you had decent people in the government things would shape up pretty quick, but noooo, you have to put the people with the power in the government seats.

What they need to do is get in there, build a billion homes, a million modern hospitals, water treatment plants etc. Feed everyone and get them all jobs, once everyone is happy with their lives they'll start to calm down. You don't fight terrorism by terrorizing people. I don't know about you but if I saw big *** tanks driving down my street everyday while I try to figure out where I'm going to get some clean water now that my house has been blown up I'd be pretty pissed off too. That's where your terrorist organizations come from.

Get rid of the combat fatigues and give the soldiers decent looking suits with pretty gold name tags, and have them drive in trucks full of cool stuff. That's how you're going to win this war, and a case of water costs about as much as a bullet. Win the people over and you'll have noone left to fight.
The only things missing from that post are Rainbows, tantric chanting and free open-air Hendrix concerts.

And I thought I was a fUcking hippy Smiley: oyvey
#18 May 15 2007 at 10:10 AM Rating: Good
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Sommelier wrote:
The only things missing from that post are Rainbows, tantric chanting and free open-air Hendrix concerts.
Um, Nobby? Hendrix is dead, dude.

Like, way dead.
#19 May 15 2007 at 10:12 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Sommelier wrote:
The only things missing from that post are Rainbows, tantric chanting and free open-air Hendrix concerts.
Um, Nobby? Hendrix is dead, dude.

Like, way dead.


That's why it needs to be open-air.
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#20 May 15 2007 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
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Samira wrote:
That's why it needs to be open-air.
I think you'll find his playing ain't what it used to be.
#21 May 15 2007 at 10:27 AM Rating: Decent
but the oil companies and cartels are making so much proffit from this "war" why stop that???



/sarcasim off
#22REDACTED, Posted: May 15 2007 at 10:32 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) bhodi,
#23 May 15 2007 at 10:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: laugh
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#24REDACTED, Posted: May 15 2007 at 11:20 AM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Jophed,
#25 May 15 2007 at 11:22 AM Rating: Excellent
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Don't look at me; I didn't start the thread.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#26 May 15 2007 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I didn't start this thread either.

But I gotta ask why, oh why, do you believe that bush is doing a 'good job' in Iraq, (and the **** in general) when it is patently obvious that he's not?

I can't even explain the blind loyalty to him, by his being a 'Republican,' and therefore, a conservative. He's failed dismally at pretty much everyting he's been in charge of since he was a kid. from college to his handling of every business he's had any input.

As far as being a 'consevative' goes....

Bigger government, with more centralised power. The president can send the whole country to war on a personal whim.

Any citizen can be arrested and held indefinately, without charge, without due process or trial by jury, on the merest suspicion of 'terrorist sympathies'.

The president can order warrantless search and seizures And ***** the fourth ammendment....

The president can and does ignore any law that he feels like, 'cos he's the commander in chief, and 'the Decider'.

With all the rampant spending going on and the state of the budget, why anyone still believes that Bush is a conservative republican is beyond me.

On the other hand, as I said before, if anyone still believes that Bush is doing a 'good job' in Iraq (and the ME in general) then they are so blinded by their 'hatred' of the 'other side' (be they democrat, liberal or 'foreign'), that they gave up their abilities of rational thought and objectivity long ago.....

And I would see Varus' blind loyalty to this criminal failure of a President, as proof of my theory.
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