florida and abortion....Follow

the republican legislature is signing into law forcing anyone seeking an abortion to first get a sonigram and have them view it before they can go through with the proceedure.

next year, mabe we will make a computerized composite of what their child would have looked like at age 3 or so, then have a giant with a sword chop them up into little pieces on the video screen to immitate what they are going to do to the fetus.

yea, we can guilt them into having a child they cant afford or take care of. that will fix the problem. but wait? didnt they just burn down the homeless shantytown? where will they live?

lets send them to new york too...........

sooo, you think they came to this decision lightly without knowing what it means?

what part of "legislated psycological abuse" do you not understand?

they have already made a life altering decision. one i am sure they did not take lightly. one i am sure they agonized over. one i am sure they ALREADY KNOW exactly what they are doing.

hey, lets pass all kinds of laws that psycoloigaly abuse anyone who make decisions that the fanatical right doesnt agree with.

freedom of religion.

we can force anyone considering going into a mosque or converting to islam to sit and watch the twin towers falling over and over, then show them pictures of people being burned to death to mae tkem think they will go to hell if they do.

informed decision.....as the right sees it?

how about this whole election thing.

before the next election, we can force anyone considering voting democrat to watch video of terrorist attacks and hippies smoking hash on teh whitehouse lawn.

informed decision by WHOS standards? who gets to decide weather someone is informed enough or not? and who gives anyone else the right to dictate restrictions on FREEDOMS already given to us.

the fanatical right does aparently.

untill the day when you idiots can conclusivly determine at what point a life actually begines, its not ending a life, it is a medical proceedure. the end. get over it.

making end runs at restricting freedoms becuase you cant win the big battle is pathetic. its why this country is in such a mess. its why we are in iraq.

it is legal terrorism.

and what the legislature is trying to dictate to these already tramatized distressed women is paramount to psycological torture. a poor mans mind controll.

the moral majority working hard for you.....

It's "abuse" to require that someone know what they're doing before they do it? Excuse me? Abortion is pretty much the *only* medical proceedure in which the doctors don't show the patient what they're going to be doing.

Think about it.



If they do, then looking at a sonigram isn't going to change their minds, is it?

My problem is that you're arguing from a position that assumes that the person in question is making a fully informed decision that they agonized over and considered every single angle of, but then you insist that they should not be required to view a particular piece of information.

If you believe what you said, then you should have no problem with this law. Because if they really do know "exactly what they're doing", then this should not impact their decision. If it does, then clearly they did *not* know everything about what they were deciding to do. Your argument is paradoxial.



I'm sorry. But I think that anyone who would feel pain/abuse from viewing a sonigram of the fetus they're about to abort hasn't fully examined every aspect of the decision they are about to make.

Do you know the statistics for depression and suicide among women who've had abortions? The pain of their decision doesn't disappear simply because they didn't look at a sonigram. It's there. It will always be there. Maybe if we didn't coddle them through the decision making process, they might be able to make a truely informed decision. That decision should *also* include the emotional damage they're going to suffer as a result of the decision. Again. If they can't handle the sonigram, they're not going to just walk away from the abortion without any feelings of remorse or pain.

I don't see anything wrong with requiring women to face that part of the decision *before* making it.



Huh? Last I heard, joining a religion is not a medical proceedure regulated by the state. Abortions are. Apples and oranges.



Hah. This is different then the current political advertising how exactly?

We could count the deaths in Iraq. We could repeat "no weapons of mass destruction" over and over. Oh wait! We do those things, don't we?...



The legistlature I'm guessing. Not sure what your problem is. I don't see you complaining about the warning labels on packs of cigarettes. Who got to decide that one?



Only in your own mind. Seriously. Drop the crack pipe.



Yes. It's a medical proceedure. Just like any other. And in most medical proceedures, the doctor is required to explain the proceedure to the patient, including the risks/benefits prior to getting approval from the patient to perform it. What part of that is confusing to you?

You may not realize this, but you're actually arguing that abortions should be the exeption to the rule. That somehow the womans "right" to an abortion means that all the normal rules should be chucked out the window, and that no one should ever be allowed to try to talk her out of it, or even simply present the risks/costs involved. She has a right to be informed too. What's happening right now is that women are being told that the proceedure is no big deal, that tons of people have them, and not to worry. That's lying to them.

But I guess it's ok in this case. Kinda one-sided, don't you think?



Freedom does not mean ignorance. Freedom does mean choice. If you restrict the information someone has before making a choice, you are reducing their freedom, not increasing it. Freedom also comes with responsibility. Lying to people so that they'll make the choice you want and suffer the consequences of that choice is *not* helping their freedom. Nor is it helping them.

You just have a strange view of what constitutes freedom. Very strange.




They are traumatized and distressed as a result of having an abortion and regretting it later. In many cases, women report that if they'd known more they would have made a totally different choice. See. Not giving them information influences their decision just as much as giving it to them does. Which is "right"? Which is "wrong"? Given the rates of regret, I don't see anything wrong with this law.

Can we play some Beethoven while we're doing the treatment? Pretty please! :)

I didn't say they were.

Did you break your fingers mid-post? :O

I cannot comprehend how ANY INFORMED person would still be fine w/the idea of abortion, unless your a stubborn liberal that refuses to see the immorality of the procedure. It's bad to kill terrorists, but it's ok to kill babies if it's the mother's decision? WTF



It still was like 10 year's ago when I took drivers ed, I remember watching a local police film of an accident scene.

I comprehend the subject just fine my dear, it upsets me that people can be so selfish and uncaring :)

Meh, if you don't like my post, read the intelligent posts made by Gabji. That's what I would LIKE to say w/out making the effort. :D

Got me there smartass lol :)

Somebody, THINK OF THE CHILDREN. The tiny unborn children!!!!


nevermind the issue of a womans right to control her reproductive system and how it is vital in gender equality and self determination.

The one where he is for nanny state government telling women what they can or cannot do with their bodies, while beating his chest about a government that tries to regulate big business.

Because the free market is more reliable than knocked up sluts who lacked the will power to say no.

I am curious just how many people got that. I caught it right away. Am I showing my age or just how corrupt I am? ;-)

True story. Hypocrisy is involved when a conservative argues for imposed morality then turns and argues for purity in a market. You gotta pick your poison.



Are you telling me that a child is not a child until the doc smacks its ***?

You've got a to draw a line on abortion somewhere. Personally, I feel aborting during the first trimester to mid-second trimester is acceptable. This way all of the extreme cases mentioned in this thread (like rape, the 14 year old, etc.) will have more then enough time to rectify their situation. After this point though I feel that you have reached a point where a women knows damn well that she is pregnant and really has no excuse for not aborting earlier. Late-term abortion is tantamount to leaving the child at the top of a mountain.

Also, you've got to bear in mind this problem of defining where life begins. As you said shadow, we have no concept as to when life begins or ends. You've got to ask yourself the question: What is more responsible here with the understanding that we don't know at which point a child is alive or dead? Do we choose the side of caution and choose life. Or do we hope that we haven't extinguished a life in the name of contraception?

I guess its just a matter of perspective...

P.S. I don't want to be a grammar **** or anything but, shadowrelm, can you at least capitalize the first word of your sentences. It's tough taking your posts with a sense of legitimacy when you articulate yourself like that.