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Time to see if Bush hates our troopsFollow

#27 Apr 26 2007 at 12:27 PM Rating: Decent
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DaimenKain wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
Smasharoo wrote:

What's amazing is that he was right, that this was the best way to have approached rebuilding Iraq.


No. What IS amazing is how much money he bilks from suckers. You have to admire the guy for that.



It's a living.


So is being an abortion doctor and EVERYONE knows that's wrong.


Yeah, you're point? One is old, and the other is immoral, and a horrible thing to do.
#28 Apr 26 2007 at 12:38 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:
No, we lost when this war was planned 6 years ago.
Now you're just taking the ****
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#29REDACTED, Posted: Apr 26 2007 at 12:55 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Katie,
#30 Apr 26 2007 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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achileez wrote:
Imagine that even a few liberals realize the importance of the fight that's going on. And that sending messages of defeat and failure to the enemy while our troops are engaged is probably not the best way to fight these islamo fascists. What a concept.

Some of us already know the importance of this fight.

Republican profiteering.

Things are getting a bit out of hand now, though.
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#31 Apr 26 2007 at 2:24 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The Trib wrote:
A defiant Democratic-controlled Senate passed legislation Thursday that would require the start of troop withdrawals from Iraq by Oct. 1, propelling Congress toward a historic veto showdown with President Bush on the war.

The 51-46 vote was largely along party lines, and like House passage of the same bill a day earlier, fell far short of the two-thirds margin needed to overturn the president's threatened veto. Nevertheless, the legislation is the first binding challenge on the war that Democrats have managed to send to Bush since they reclaimed control of both houses of Congress in January.
Will Bush sign the bill passed by our democratically elected representative government giving our troops the funding they desperately need or is he more worried about his political agenda and will single-handedly decide to starve our brave men and women for the sake of partisanship? Time will tell!


Framing the argument in your own terms is step one... Smiley: grin


Busy at work atm Joph, but I Loooooove the way you worded that. ;)
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#32 Apr 26 2007 at 2:28 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I Loooooove the way you worded that.
Thanks! I'm going to offer my spin services to the Democratic party. I can be the next Karl Rove!
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#33 Apr 26 2007 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Withdraw is better than allowing the president to keep doing w/e the hell he wants. That is why I don't understand McCain, he says something like 'well the president really @#%^ed up again but lets see if he can do better next time!'

Edited, Apr 26th 2007 5:26pm by Lefian
#34 Apr 26 2007 at 4:52 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Metastophicleas wrote:
What we need is leadership that will actually define what our role is, and detirmine what constitutes completing that mission, not some random date to leave things a mess.
Well, we sure as hell don't have that and, in absence of it, I'd rather see a deadline than this "Our committment isn't open-ended but we're never going to commit to actually leaving or doing anything punative because then the terrorist have won" double-talk bullshit.


Wait? We don't? What the heck do you think this is?

There have been clearly defined goals and victory conditions from day one. Unfortunately, we have a party that has made every effort to convince the public that we don't, to obfuscate those conditions as much as possible, and to convince everyone that "we're losing" on the basis of that obfuscation. All for political gain.

The saddest part is that it's been working for them. When otherwise intelligent people claim that we haven't defined our role, it shows the degree to which the Left has been successful at concealing it and convincing the public it doesn't exist, and finally convincing the public that we should abandon what we're doing.


Why don't you read that first. Then tell me we don't have a defined set of goals, and defined set of victory conditions, and a defined plan for getting there? Sheesh!
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#35 Apr 26 2007 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
Liberal joe you should just go shoot bush in the head i mean honestly it would make you feel better right?
#36 Apr 26 2007 at 5:57 PM Rating: Good
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There have been clearly defined goals and victory conditions from day one.



November 30, 2005
National Strategy for Victory in Iraq


War starts in...March '03.

Good work, ace.

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#37 Apr 26 2007 at 7:23 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Wait? We don't? What the heck do you think this is?
A bunch of weak talking points made entirely impotent by the unwillingness of the administration to put any real pressure on the Iraqi government and people because the only thing we can really threaten to do would be "giving victory to the enemy".

Ooohhh... we will have security victory when we get rid of all the insurgents! No shit? Too bad that's not happening, huh? We'll have politcal victory when everyone supports the government and isolates all the bad guys! Good thing Rumsfeld figured out for us that those remaining terrorists are just a few dead-enders, huh? Because, damn, that government in Iraq is just the fucking law of the land, isn't it? I won't even waste my time mocking the "economic victory"
Quote:
Why don't you read that first.
I did. It was a joke. I suppose you're easily taken in by corporate memos as well.
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#38 Apr 26 2007 at 8:18 PM Rating: Default
I'm going to assume Gbaji made some sorry attempt at justifying this war that future historians will look at as a failure; without reading his post. I'm also going to assume I am right.
#39 Apr 26 2007 at 10:20 PM Rating: Excellent
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King Rimesume wrote:
I'm going to assume Gbaji made some sorry attempt at justifying this war that future historians will look at as a failure; without reading his post.


Hari Seldon will surely think it's a failure!
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#40 Apr 27 2007 at 3:03 AM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Why don't you read that first. Then tell me we don't have a defined set of goals, and defined set of victory conditions, and a defined plan for getting there? Sheesh!


All there is in this document are a bunch of idealistic bulletpoints. It doesn't say anything about *how* you will achieve all these things.

Having said, I'm kinda glad to see this document, since until then, I genuinely thought the government had no idea what "victory" meant.

Quote:
Short term, Iraq is making steady progress in fighting terrorists, meeting political milestones, building democratic institutions, and standing up security forces.


They've already failed on this point. They're losing the battle against terrorists, the "democratic" institutions are a joke, and the security forces are nothing but institutionalised militias that care only about their own faction. Though, I guess, you could say that Iraq met some political milestones, since the elections were relatiely succesful considering the state of the country.

Quote:
Medium term, Iraq is in the lead defeating terrorists and providing its own security, with a fully constitutional government in place, and on its way to achieving its economic potential.


Hmm. The less said about that the better I guess.

Quote:
Longer term, Iraq is peaceful, united, stable, and secure, well integrated into the international community, and a full partner in the global war on terrorism


And that too. It seems so far away...

I agree with Smash that this invasion was doomed from the moment the US didn't get a UN mandate to go in there. Fomr that point on, they went into a war of aggression against all principles of interntional law. Had any other country in the world done that, the SC would've imposed sanctions on them.

If you take this illegality, and couple it with the blatant arrrogance and incompetence of both the Bush administration, and the people Bush sent there, it's quite easy to understand why it all went so wrong.

There are quite a few books that explain what was wrong with the CPA in Iraq. Alawi's "The Occupation of Iraq" is one of those, but there are quite a few out there, from people taht worked within the CPA. I did my Master's dissertation on the CPA'economic reforms in Iraq, and it's schoking how out of touch and clueless these people were. It's incompetence in its highest form.

As to whehter the US should set a timetable, i've been torn on this for quite a while. I don't like the idea of coming in, fUcking the place compeltely, and then leaving. It seems cowardly.

But what's the alternative? Stay, and keep on fighting? I can't see how that would make anything better. The US army has been "staying and fighting" for 4 years now, with no results. No improvements.

When you look at the lofty "goals" above, those "definitions of success in Iraq", does anyone really think they can be achieved now through US military power? I don't. I can't see what magical event would happen to turn things around. The economics are lost. The politics are lost. The military is very close to losing. When insurgents are able to bomb the Green Zone in the middle of a "surge", it's hard to be optimistic.

So, if we are realistic, we know that the US military alone can't make the situation in Iraq better. All they do is inflame passions and give motivations to ordinary Iraqis to fight.

In a perfect world, the US would give the means to the UN to do some work on the ground. But eventhat seemsunlikely, since the place is so enflamed that the UN would get bombed out of there.

I can't see any other solution than to leave. Not just leave, wash your hands, and forget about it, of course. Leave, and negotiate with the surrounding countries. Iran, of course, Syria, ISrael, Egypt, Jordan. You need to get neighbouring Arab countries involved, not militarily, but politically and economically. You need a UN presence not far away. You need a US military presence in a neighbouring country too, just in case.

It's hard to be optimistic about the future of Iraq. But, with huge amounts of diplomatic work, with financial aid, with negotiations, and with a huge effort from the interntional commmunity, you can limit the damage. A bit.

Whatever happens, this failure will haunt the US and the rest of the world for at least another generation. Not only that, but a perfectly executed "damage limitation" strategy would still not guarantee anything.

And, worst of all, I don't think the US has the stomach to do this anymore. To me it seems that the country just wants to "forget about Iraq", wash their hands and "move on". Not that they could, of course. Iran is still making nasty noises, Afghanistan is far from stable, NK is still pissing on our hands...

It's not all doom-and-gloom, of course. Hopefully lessons will be learnt. And things can still turn out "ok", if we're lucky and the next administration is less incompetent.

But I'm not holding my breath.

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#41 Apr 27 2007 at 4:18 AM Rating: Good
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#42 Apr 27 2007 at 9:45 AM Rating: Excellent
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Monsieur RedPhoenixxx wrote:
As to whehter the US should set a timetable, i've been torn on this for quite a while. I don't like the idea of coming in, fUcking the place compeltely, and then leaving. It seems cowardly.

But what's the alternative? Stay, and keep on fighting? I can't see how that would make anything better.
I would feel better about staying and fighting if we were fighting for something besides an impotent, corrupt government beholden to anti-American factions & militas. If the attrition rate on the Iraqi military and police forces wasn't tremendous and if the guys we were training as police during the day weren't selling their American-paid arms to insurgents at night (if they weren't shooting at us themselves). I'd feel better if "our committment is not open-ended" meant anything besides empty words immediately contridicted by the words and actions of the administration.

The elections themselves were a success. The concept of them was a success. The result of them was a farce that has brought us no closer to "Victory" than we were before except as a talking-point to justify the invasion.

The most frustrating thing is that the situation is just fucked. It is fucked up to just leave. It's also pointless to stay and basically hang around and get shot at while the situation remains fucked up. The answer is what? A "surge"? Even if, by a miracle of God, we partially quelled Baghdad, then what? Kabul teaches that a tenuous grasp on the capital does not translate to control over the nation. It Iraqi Security Forces have proven time and again that they can not function against insurgent strikes without American support. Should we expect this to change?

I've heard suggestions that perhaps the best thing, for now, would be to pass a bill funding Afghanistan and swiftly pass a separate bill funding Iraq for 90 days or so. Remove the boogeyman of starving soldiers without bullets for the near term but keep the larger debate fresh and going. This war should have been in the general military budget years ago but, if the Republicans insisted on keeping it off the regular books, make Bush come with hat in hand every three months to argue his case and explain himself.
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#43 Apr 27 2007 at 9:48 AM Rating: Decent
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I've heard suggestions that perhaps the best thing, for now, would be to pass a bill funding Afghanistan and swiftly pass a separate bill funding Iraq for 90 days or so.


Fuck that. Being the side that blinks in every confrontation, forever, isn't an effective tactic to apply to getting your policies furthered.

Ignore the veto. There's plenty of money to prosecute the war for months and months.
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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#44 Apr 27 2007 at 9:56 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think there is a right answer anymore, but there is an answer that follows the Constitution. I just think it'll be worse in the long run if we just leave.

Then again, we thought that about Vietnam too, and Communism didn't spread the world over (socialism has though, sort of).
#45 Apr 27 2007 at 9:59 AM Rating: Decent
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I don't think there is a right answer anymore, but there is an answer that follows the Constitution.


Could you be a little more specific? I need a good laugh.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#46 Apr 27 2007 at 10:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I don't think there is a right answer anymore, but there is an answer that follows the Constitution.

Could you be a little more specific? I need a good laugh.
Well, we've already granted them all the right to carry weapons around...
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#47 Apr 27 2007 at 10:08 AM Rating: Decent
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Meaning we didn't declare war, so we pack up and go home.
#48 Apr 27 2007 at 10:19 AM Rating: Decent
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Meaning we didn't declare war


The US will never declare war again. The whole concept is a quaint anachronism at this point.
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#49 Apr 27 2007 at 1:16 PM Rating: Decent
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When was the last time we actually did declare war? Was Gulf War I actually declared?
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#50 Apr 27 2007 at 1:25 PM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I think so. Anyone else notice that we've only won the wars that Congress actually declared?

Edited, Apr 27th 2007 5:25pm by Metastophicleas
#51 Apr 27 2007 at 1:27 PM Rating: Excellent
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Debalic wrote:
When was the last time we actually did declare war? Was Gulf War I actually declared?
In the 20th Century, we only declared war for WWI & WWII.
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