Forum Settings
       
1 2 3 4 Next »
Reply To Thread

Hey look, a ****!Follow

#77 Apr 09 2007 at 12:12 PM Rating: Decent
**
301 posts
Quote:
That's the way it works. It's the way it's worked for years and years. See my Lincoln statement.

Congress has *always* had the right to withhold money if they don't like the way a war/police action/kegger is going.


Would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks otherwise.

However, withholding funds because you as congress decide you do not like the war is different than... funding the troops so long as we tell you what to do with them and give you time tables.


Yes, he can veto the bill. Vetoing the bill will only delay necessary funding for our armed forces and hurt them. It's a lose-lose situation no matter what course of action the President chooses.

He can either;
A) sign the bill into law and grant semi commander-in-chief powers to the members of congress in regards to how many troops will be active and when they are coming home.

B) veto the bill and delay funding.

So, basically, Joph, what you are telling me is that it is perfectly acceptable for Congress to demand the President take courses of action with the armed forces, so long as its a section in a funding bill?

I know you cannot believe or agree with that. From the posts I've read from you, you are much smarter than that.
#78 Apr 09 2007 at 12:13 PM Rating: Decent
**
301 posts
bodhisattva wrote:
Article 1 Section 8 gives Congress more power than just signing a blank cheque when it comes to war spending and military funding.

Which seems to be the problem Born seems to be having trouble grasping.


Not quite. As I mentioned.. they can fund and not fund all they want. They cannot, however, decide what is to be done with the troops. Something they are doing in their funds appropriation bill.

Show me where A1S8 says the legislative branch can deploy and remove troops from active duty, or demand such actions be taken.

Edited, Apr 9th 2007 4:15pm by borntolandhard
#79 Apr 09 2007 at 12:20 PM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
Samira already provided a historical example of what I was alluding to.

Educate yourself on the manner or continue to argue from a position of ignorance. Your choice.
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#80 Apr 09 2007 at 12:23 PM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
Quote:
Would be hard pressed to find someone who thinks otherwise.

However, withholding funds because you as congress decide you do not like the war is different than... funding the troops so long as we tell you what to do with them and give you time tables.


It is not different. It is not different in the sense that it is fundamentally the SAME THING.

____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#81 Apr 09 2007 at 12:26 PM Rating: Decent
**
301 posts
So because Lincoln suspended habeas corpus and was coerced to perform certain militaristic duties.. it is ok for any other President to suffer the same course of action?

You are failing to see the point in this. That's fine. I can only repeat the same thing that is being evaded so many times, and turned into something that it isn't. This isn't about withholding funds because you disagree with the war. It is about Congress using coercion to take control of the armed forces by outlining what they want the armed forces to do in a funding bill. And while it has happened before, it does not make it right.

Have a good night :-)
#82 Apr 09 2007 at 12:33 PM Rating: Excellent
Will swallow your soul
******
29,360 posts
What in the living hell does habeus corpus have to do with the price of beans?

Your failure to see the point does not constitute ignorance on my part. Nice try, though.
____________________________
In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#83 Apr 09 2007 at 12:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
borntolandhard wrote:
However, withholding funds because you as congress decide you do not like the war is different than... funding the troops so long as we tell you what to do with them and give you time tables.
Yeah, the first is a cut and dry halt to funding and the second is a compromise which gives the President the funding he seeks with a statement that it will be cut off at a later date. In both cases, funding will be lost but at least the second gives fair warning.
Quote:
Yes, he can veto the bill. Vetoing the bill will only delay necessary funding for our armed forces and hurt them. It's a lose-lose situation no matter what course of action the President chooses.
Despite the claims of President Bush, the military is funded into the summer. Bush's rhetoric is to try to win public support, nothing more.
Quote:
So, basically, Joph, what you are telling me is that it is perfectly acceptable for Congress to demand the President take courses of action with the armed forces, so long as its a section in a funding bill?

I know you cannot believe or agree with that. From the posts I've read from you, you are much smarter than that.
Your attempts to shame me into agreeing with you aside, Congress is doing expressly what Congress is supposed to do in regards to funding -- determine the amounts and conditions of the checks it hands out.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#84 Apr 09 2007 at 12:58 PM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
So we have established that it is well within Congresses power to cut/spend when it comes to war. They are not allowed to command the army though. Which is the crux of the argument.

Which is where it is useful to note that the withdrawal date of 2008 was a non binding resolution. It is also important to note (and Joph already has) that this NONBINDING clause did not dictate troop deployment or try to wrest control from the CnC but rather was a suggestion followed with the promise that funding would be cut at that point, which as mentioned is well within the congresses right.

Edit - For Born's sake

A non-binding resolution is a written motion adopted by a deliberative body that cannot progress into a law. The substance of the resolution can be anything that can normally be proposed as a motion.

This type of resolution is often used to express the body's approval or disapproval of something which they cannot otherwise vote on,[1] due to the matter being handled by another jurisdiction, or being protected by a constitution. An example would be a resolution of support for a nation's troops in battle, which carries no legal weight, but is adopted for moral support.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-binding_resolution

Edited, Apr 9th 2007 5:06pm by bodhisattva
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#85 Apr 09 2007 at 1:11 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Actually, the Senate timetable is non-binding. The House timetable is a binding condition to the funding.

I'd guess that, after the veto, the two chambers will put in a non-binding timetable thus getting their word out there but giving Bush much less ammunition to veto a second time. Hell, the finalized version of this bill may well have a non-binding timetable.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#86 Apr 09 2007 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
Ahh yes.

Of course Levin stated that the troops will be funded no matter what but they want to pressure Bush to pressure Iraq to start taking care of itself. Which is a roundabout way of saying 'we still want out as fast as we can".
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#87 Apr 09 2007 at 5:08 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Um... Joph?

Wrong Bill. Try H.R. 1591

That's the one with the subsidies for such important military stuff as spinach farming in the US...

And it's also the one with the unconstitutional funding criteria, such as:

Quote:
SEC. 1904. (a) The President shall make and transmit to Congress the following determinations, along with reports in classified and unclassified form detailing the basis for each determination, on or before July 1, 2007--

(1) whether the Government of Iraq has given United States Armed Forces and Iraqi Security Forces the authority to pursue all extremists, including Sunni insurgents and Shiite militias, and is making substantial progress in delivering necessary Iraqi Security Forces for Baghdad and protecting such Forces from political interference; intensifying efforts to build balanced security forces throughout Iraq that provide even-handed security for all Iraqis; ensuring that Iraq's political authorities are not undermining or making false accusations against members of the Iraqi Security Forces; eliminating militia control of local security; establishing a strong militia disarmament program; ensuring fair and just enforcement of laws; establishing political, media, economic, and service committees in support of the Baghdad Security Plan; and eradicating safe havens;

(2) whether the Government of Iraq is making substantial progress in meeting its commitment to pursue reconciliation initiatives, including enactment of a hydro-carbon law; adoption of legislation necessary for the conduct of provincial and local elections; reform of current laws governing the de-Baathification process; amendment of the Constitution of Iraq ; and allocation of Iraqi revenues for reconstruction projects; and

(3) whether the Government of Iraq and United States Armed Forces are making substantial progress in reducing the level of sectarian violence in Iraq .

(b) On or before October 1, 2007, the President--

(1) shall certify to the Congress that the Government of Iraq has enacted a broadly accepted hydro-carbon law that equitably shares oil revenues among all Iraqis; adopted legislation necessary for the conduct of provincial and local elections, taken steps to implement such legislation, and set a schedule to conduct provincial and local elections; reformed current laws governing the de-Baathification process to allow for more equitable treatment of individuals affected by such laws; amended the Constitution of Iraq consistent with the principles contained in article 137 of such constitution; and allocated and begun expenditure of $10 billion in Iraqi revenues for reconstruction projects, including delivery of essential services, on an equitable basis; or

(2) shall report to the Congress that he is unable to make such certification.

(c) If in the transmissions to Congress required by subsection (a) the President determines that any of the conditions specified in such subsection have not been met, or if the President is unable to make the certification specified in subsection (b) by the required date, the Secretary of Defense shall commence the redeployment of the Armed Forces from Iraq and complete such redeployment within 180 days.

(d) If the President makes the certification specified in subsection (b), the Secretary of Defense shall commence the redeployment of the Armed Forces from Iraq not later than March 1, 2008, and complete such redeployment within 180 days.

(e) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, funds appropriated or otherwise made available in this or any other Act are immediately available for obligation and expenditure to plan and execute a safe and orderly redeployment of the Armed Forces from Iraq , as specified in subsections (c) and (d).

(f) After the conclusion of the 180-day period for redeployment specified in subsections (c) and (d), the Secretary of Defense may not deploy or maintain members of the Armed Forces in Iraq for any purpose other than the following:

(1) Protecting American diplomatic facilities and American citizens, including members of the U.S. Armed Forces.

(2) Serving in roles consistent with customary diplomatic positions.

(3) Engaging in targeted special actions limited in duration and scope to killing or capturing members of al-Qaeda and other terrorist organizations with global reach.

(4) Training members of the Iraqi Security Forces.

(g) Notwithstanding any other provision of law, 50 percent of the funds appropriated by title I of this Act for assistance to Iraq under each of the headings `IRAQ SECURITY FORCES FUND', `ECONOMIC SUPPORT FUND', and `INTERNATIONAL NARCOTICS CONTROL AND LAW ENFORCEMENT' shall be withheld from obligation until the President has made a certification to Congress regarding the matters specified in subsection (b)(1).

(h) The requirement to withhold funds from obligation pursuant to subsection (g) shall not apply with respect to funds made available under the heading `ECONOMIC SUPPORT FUND' for continued support for the Community Action Program and Community Stabilization Program in Iraq administered by the United States Agency for International Development or for programs and activities to promote democracy in Iraq .



Look. Congress can place some conditions on funding. But this is well beyond that power. They're placing specific criteria on what constitutes "victory" and "success" in a military operation. By the Constitution, the President holds that power, not Congress. Congress cannot micromanage a military operation in this manner. It's a clear violation of separation of powers.


If they simply stated that funding for the Iraq military operations would be reduced by X over Y time, that would be legal. The second they place conditions on that funding that are based on things outside the US itself (in this case in the military zone), they have overstepped their constitutional grounds. They may fund, or not fund. They may *not* tell the president how to use the military troops, what goals to set, or what constitutes winning or losing.

Had you read the correct bill, you might have realized just how horrible it is. And this is just in the parts actually having something to do with the military...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#88 Apr 09 2007 at 5:13 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,158 posts
the OP said

Quote:
Hey look, a ****!


gbaji said..

Quote:
Here, here, I'm over here.....


yup.
____________________________
"If you have selfish, ignorant citizens, you're gonna get selfish, ignorant leaders". Carlin.

#89 Apr 09 2007 at 5:14 PM Rating: Decent
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Um... In case you missed one of the more relevant parts:

Quote:
(c) If in the transmissions to Congress required by subsection (a) the President determines that any of the conditions specified in such subsection have not been met, or if the President is unable to make the certification specified in subsection (b) by the required date, the Secretary of Defense shall commence the redeployment of the Armed Forces from Iraq and complete such redeployment within 180 days.

(d) If the President makes the certification specified in subsection (b), the Secretary of Defense shall commence the redeployment of the Armed Forces from Iraq not later than March 1, 2008, and complete such redeployment within 180 days.


Note. If he makes the certification, they are ordering the secretary of defense to commence redeployment from Iraq.

If he does not make the certification, they are ordering the same thing.

Thus, it is a defacto required withdrawal from Iraq, regardless of conditions on the ground. Silly, isn't it?


Sorry. Congress has no power to order the withdrawal of forces like that. They have no power to tell the president how to conduct a war. They may choose to fund or not fund it, but cannot "make demands" and hold funding hostage to those demands. Not on the issue of commanding military operations they cant...
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#90 Apr 09 2007 at 5:48 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
By the Constitution, the President holds that power, not Congress. Congress cannot micromanage a military operation in this manner. It's a clear violation of separation of powers.
Smiley: laugh Oh, well as long as you say so.

If I were you, I'd write to my Congressman and warn him.

Sorry, Gbaji. Everything I said still stands. Congress has used the power of the purse to limit troops and set funding conditions in the past and, until you have some more compelling arguements than "It's true 'cause I say it is", consider me unconvinced.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#91 Apr 09 2007 at 6:09 PM Rating: Good
Encyclopedia
******
35,568 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Sorry, Gbaji. Everything I said still stands. Congress has used the power of the purse to limit troops and set funding conditions in the past and, until you have some more compelling arguements than "It's true 'cause I say it is", consider me unconvinced.


Only with regard to general funding for total troop numbers, equipment allocations, base creation, and support programs. They can most certainly say "Here's 20 million dollars of funding for <some new weapons program>", Or "Here's funding for 20,000 more armored humvees.

What they absolutely cannot say is "Ok. We'll fund the military, but only if you use it to do X and not Y...".


What part of the President being the commander in chief is not clear here? Congress cannot make specific operational military demands as a condition to military funding. It's an absolute violation of the constitution. You can laugh and say it's not so, but that does not make my position on this issue any less correct Joph.
____________________________
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
#92 Apr 09 2007 at 6:35 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
gbaji wrote:
It's an absolute violation of the constitution. You can laugh and say it's not so, but that does not make my position on this issue any less correct Joph.
Again, so far your arguement is "Because I said so." Well, I guess it's more like "Because I absolutely said so." It's the 'absolutely' that really convinced me. With a word like absolutely, what other evidence could one need?

Congress has passed funding bills setting personnel limits. Congress has passed withdrawal dates for troop deployments. Congress has passed bills prohibiting use of certain forces. Congress has placed any number of conditions on funding bills. When the courts rule this bill unconstititional, let me know. When you have a stronger voice of authority than your own, let me know. I'll be interested in hearing it. Absolutely.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#93 Apr 09 2007 at 8:19 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts

What part of the President being the commander in chief is not clear here?


This part confused me:


To declare war, grant letters of marque and reprisal, and make rules concerning captures on land and water;

To raise and support armies, but no appropriation of money to that use shall be for a longer term than two years;

To provide and maintain a navy;

To make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces;

To provide for calling forth the militia to execute the laws of the union, suppress insurrections and repel invasions;


Someone should cut and paste those over to


The President shall be commander in chief of the Army and Navy of the United States, and of the militia of the several states,


since apparently, when they wrote the constitution they got confused and reserved the specific powers you claim reside in the Executive branch for Congress. Those crazy bastards mistakenly put in a check against unrestrained control of the military by the President. What were they thinking??
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#94 Apr 10 2007 at 3:58 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
gbaji wrote:
That's the one with the subsidies for such important military stuff as spinach farming in the US...


Are you saying the Spinach industry in the United States did not take a significant and costly hit during the previous years spinach e.coli scare where all spinach was pretty much pulled off store shelves and off restaurant menus for a period of over a month?

Why do you hate American farmers who make this country so great, Gbaji?
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
1 2 3 4 Next »
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 250 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (250)