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#1 Apr 03 2007 at 8:55 AM Rating: Excellent
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Let me preface this by saying, I love Philip Zimbardo. I hope that old man lives forever and continues holding up that mirror.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2007/04/03/DDGIFOV4M71.DTL wrote:
No one can forget those images from the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq. Now, three years later, San Francisco psychologist Philip Zimbardo has written a book arguing that the men and women who participated in the torture were not just "rotten apples," as the Bush administration has argued, but the unfortunate products of a "rotten barrel" mind-set that left them unsupervised, poorly trained and ignorant of Iraqi culture.


Any of us is capable of doing things our rational, everyday selves would find repugnant and even unforgivable. It's an obvious truism that bears repeating every single day.

Quote:
Trying to understand the Abu Ghraib disgrace, he says, isn't the same as excusing it. "If you don't understand the dynamics -- and if you don't change the situation -- then it's going to happen over and over again."


Quote:
He cites examples of men who, at the same time they inflicted evil in the context of work, maintained parallel lives as family men and loving fathers. "What I'm saying is that the human mind is so complex that any of us have templates to do anything. I mean, we could be Mother Teresa, we could be Idi Amin. We could be Nelson Mandela, we could be Saddam Hussein. But for most of us, we go in and out. It's not even a choice."


He goes on to talk about his own infamous 1971 Stanford prison experiment. That study, and the fallout from that study, have had a major influence on my own thinking.

Every once in a while something happens that reminds me of Zimbardo, and I'm made happy, again, that he's been around to tell us some of the hard lessons we've needed to hear. It'd be nice if more people were willing to hear them, of course; but he's done his job.

Cheers, old man.
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#2 Apr 03 2007 at 9:02 AM Rating: Excellent
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haha, I love listening to him talk...we were watching an interview with him just the other day. It's great that he can still be making money off an old experiment that has been used as an example of what not to do by every IRB and ethics committee since.

I just like saying his name really. Zimbarrrrrrrrrdohhhhh. I think of a combination of zombo.com and that weird genie thing from Big.

Nexa
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“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
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#3 Apr 03 2007 at 9:17 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Evil needn't be on the scale of Abu Ghraib torture, he adds. Everyday evil includes "telling a racist or sexist joke, spreading gossip in school that can ruin another kid. Spousal or child abuse, doing something at work that violates your values. The newest evil now is cyber-bullying."
RACK us for being at the forefront of this new trend.


As for the point of his book/study, big whoop. Who didn't know this?

Edit to add that I suppose the answer to that question is the bulk of the right wing.

Edited, Apr 3rd 2007 1:20pm by Atomicflea
#4 Apr 03 2007 at 9:21 AM Rating: Excellent
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Atomicflea wrote:
Quote:
Evil needn't be on the scale of Abu Ghraib torture, he adds. Everyday evil includes "telling a racist or sexist joke, spreading gossip in school that can ruin another kid. Spousal or child abuse, doing something at work that violates your values. The newest evil now is cyber-bullying."
RACK us for being at the forefront of this new trend.


As for the point of his study, big whoop. Who didn't know this?


In 1971, everyone.

It's obvious today because it was studied then. Lots of people at that time were outraged by the implications, and attacked the results. Now, it does seem obvious.

I guess the same is true for spontaneous generation, and microbes, and gravity.
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In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#5 Apr 03 2007 at 9:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
They were bringing freedom with a sword
to the heathen muslim horde
the mohammedans started fighting back
they hated freedom in Iraq
before you had time to think
the president said throw them in the clink

What to do with the inmates
that are so packed behind these gates
pile them up high
naked will they lie
Menstrual blood we will smear
then stick a plunger up their rear

Abuse and denigrate
our values we violate
till we become that which we hate
not fun to look into the reflective plate
and see the monster we allowed ourselves to become


It is fun cause it rhymes!
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#6 Apr 03 2007 at 10:54 AM Rating: Default
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I caught his interview on the Daily Show and I thoroughly enjoyed it, even thought about picking up his book.

If you found that interesting, you might also look into the Milgram experiment. It's a slightly different context but and a different type of study, but the results reveal even more about the potential ugliness of human behavior.
#7 Apr 03 2007 at 10:56 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Kachi wrote:

If you found that interesting, you might also look into the Milgram experiment. It's a slightly different context but and a different type of study, but the results reveal even more about the potential ugliness of human behavior.


It would have been funnier had it been conducted by Bill Murray.

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#8 Apr 03 2007 at 11:03 AM Rating: Good
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Milgram experiments were interesting, though I do have to say I laughed when I watched the video, of course I laughed at Schindlers list as well (probably a nervous reaction to uncomfortable situations i guess).

I think the most messed up sociological experiment was with David Reimer, whose ***** was destroyed in a botched 'chemical circumcision'. John Money a renowned expert on gender identity proposed raising him as a female. Davids ********* and were surgically removed and a ****** was formed. Money wrote papers on 'David" who was named Brenda now for years.

Finally during her teen years she/he threatened suicide if she was forced to see Money again and ended up re-assuming a male identity. He suffered with schizophrenia and killed himself with a shotgun at the age of 38.
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#9 Apr 03 2007 at 11:23 AM Rating: Default
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Never heard that one @_@ that's pretty sick. Was the "botch" intentional or was the study causal comparative?

Of those I know of, the human experiments from the holocaust were the cruelest, but I guess everyone already knows about those.
#10 Apr 03 2007 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
Science on a far more sound footing then psychology is denied by this administration on a daily basis. In fact, the white house seems impermiable to reality, at the moment. I'm glad this guy is saying it, but I sincerely doubt this will impact the few remaining supporters of our president.

The good news is I can't see any Republican candidate with the same potential for living in a fantasy land. However, I can see big money falling on the first serious candidate to do so.

Bush will be going soon and his abject failure in Abu Ghraib and so many other areas will go with him (most likely).
#11 Apr 03 2007 at 12:08 PM Rating: Good
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Set of twin boys were born to the family. The first was circumcised via a scalpel. The second the doctor decided to get fancy and used acid, it was spilled and the boys ***** was destroyed beyond saving.

They then studied the 'girl' and the development of the brother under anyonmity and never made any follow ups to report the complete disaster it became in the teen years.
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#12 Apr 03 2007 at 12:37 PM Rating: Decent
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In 1971, everyone.


Of course they did.

Kudos to him for gaining notoriety for conducting a dangerous poorly constructed experiment that put innocent people at risk to obtain a result he knew damn well was coming from the beginning.

Milgram published in 64 and there were dozens of studies confirming the response to authority roles. Zombardo's was only of note because he had dramatic film.

also he needs to shave that annoying beard. You're not Faust, pal, it's time to grow up. Welcome to 1985.

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To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#13 Apr 03 2007 at 12:45 PM Rating: Decent
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Set of twin boys were born to the family. The first was circumcised via a scalpel. The second the doctor decided to get fancy and used acid, it was spilled and the boys ***** was destroyed beyond saving.

They then studied the 'girl' and the development of the brother under anyonmity and never made any follow ups to report the complete disaster it became in the teen years.


That was a funny documentary. Not because of the content, but because completely by accident I happened to be eating cocktail wieners while watching it.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#14 Apr 03 2007 at 12:46 PM Rating: Excellent
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You're right, of course. It was of no value.

But... cocktail wieners? Yeesh.
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In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act.

#15 Apr 03 2007 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Samira wrote:
You're right, of course. It was of no value.

But... cocktail wieners? Yeesh.


It makes men feel secure to eat cocktail weeners. It's true, and proven in one of Zimbardo's lesser known studies.

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#16 Apr 03 2007 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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It was of no value.


Well it depends what you define as value. It had value in that it was widely publicized so that people unaware of other research would say to themselves "Well, that's all well and good, but *I* wouldn't do that." As a piece of research psychology studied by peers, no, it had no value.

____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#17 Apr 03 2007 at 12:51 PM Rating: Decent
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30,086 posts

It makes men feel secure to eat cocktail weeners. It's true, and proven in one of Zimbardo's lesser known studies.


Really? What does it mean if you duct tape them to Cabbage Patch Kids first?
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#18 Apr 03 2007 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
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Samira wrote:
You're right, of course. It was of no value.
It taught me not to circumcise via acid any more.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#19 Apr 03 2007 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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Smasharoo wrote:

It makes men feel secure to eat cocktail weeners. It's true, and proven in one of Zimbardo's lesser known studies.


Really? What does it mean if you duct tape them to Cabbage Patch Kids first?


Fancy enough for ketchup packets from McDonalds, I'd say.

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#20 Apr 03 2007 at 12:53 PM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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12,065 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Samira wrote:
You're right, of course. It was of no value.
It taught me not to circumcise via acid any more.


The Zimbardo experiment? That's a hell of a correllation there!

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
― Neil Gaiman, The Sandman, Vol. 9: The Kindly Ones
#21 Apr 03 2007 at 12:54 PM Rating: Good
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Smasharoo wrote:

It makes men feel secure to eat cocktail weeners. It's true, and proven in one of Zimbardo's lesser known studies.


Really? What does it mean if you duct tape them to Cabbage Patch Kids first?


Random shot in the dark - You wanted to be a RC priest but didn't follow through.
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