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#27 Mar 29 2007 at 7:28 AM Rating: Decent
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However on the other side something isn't created out of nothingness without some sort of "all powerful being".


The idea of creation is entirely a human-made concept. Nowhere in the known universe have we witnessed creation... we imagine it. All of the things that we identify as "creation" are actually only changing and rearranging. I think we also created the concept of "nothing". I don't think there is such a thing as "nothing". I think every nook and cranny of the universe is filled into infinity. People take the things they can see (or detect) and when they move into an area where there is nothing they can see (or detect), it does not occur to them that there was actually something there... it has simply moved, replaced by the thing they could see.

I don't think creation has ever taken place. Everything that exists has always existed.
#28 Mar 29 2007 at 7:34 AM Rating: Decent
I believe all humans were imbued by our creator with intellect and imagination to use them.

Seriously.

Yes. It means for that, too, Hellboy.
#29 Mar 29 2007 at 7:35 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Semi-practicing Catholic. It's like being Protestant except we get our own mini-nation. Put that in your pipe and smoke it, John Calvin!


/nod Same here. Mr. Thumb's intentions are to convert to Catholicism as well.
#30 Mar 29 2007 at 7:52 AM Rating: Decent
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i do not believe. and i probably never will, since religion has been the reason for many many wars. (and still is.)
thus, religion is something that threatens this world, i cannot believe in that.
the only religion that i dont hate, is budhism.
Because that religion doesnt have any violence to it, buddhist monks dont ind if you arent a buddhist, they will still let you into their most sacred place.
and their reason for that? they believe that, like it or not, that the mysticism (sp?) of those sacred places affects you.

and after my vacation in Tibet, i agree with them. their temples really do feel sacred when you walk there. Like it, or not.
#31 Mar 29 2007 at 7:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
Mr. Thumb's intentions are to convert to Catholicism as well.
He should. People can go on about how they con't comprehend God or they believe in a "power" in the oceans and trees, but Catholics get a tradition of killing heretics and pagans across Europe, perverting their beliefs, conquering South and Central America and filling up the Vatican with priceless works of art. Plus a slew of rites, rituals, exorcisms, transubstantiation etc -- it's the closest you can get to mainstream wizardry without buying a bunch of Llewellyn Press books from some broad named Auraglow Moonwolf and watching a shitload of "Charmed".

Edited, Mar 29th 2007 9:27am by Jophiel
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#32 Mar 29 2007 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Aethien wrote:
i do not believe. and i probably never will, since religion has been the reason for many many wars. (and still is.)
thus, religion is something that threatens this world, i cannot believe in that.
You know what's caused even more wars? Property ownership. Land, wealth, people, etc.

Have you given up owning land and possessions yet? If you don't believe, that's fine. But your reasoning for it is kind of shakey.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#33 Mar 29 2007 at 8:08 AM Rating: Good
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Aethien wrote:
i do not believe. and i probably never will, since religion has been the reason for many many wars. (and still is.)



Family units create strife, want for more creates strife, individuality creates strife. Surely we must suppress these horrible things, eradicate them! We must strip our culture and society of all sharp edges and possible sources of contention and create something new in which we have nothing to fight over.

I would join you in this brave new world.

Edited, Mar 29th 2007 12:09pm by bodhisattva
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#34 Mar 29 2007 at 8:09 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Thumbelyna Quick Hands wrote:
Mr. Thumb's intentions are to convert to Catholicism as well.
He should. People can go on about how they con't comprehend God or they believe in a "power" in the oceans and trees, but Catholics get a tradition of killing heretics and pagans across Europe, perverting their beliefs, conquering South and Central America and killing up the Vatican with priceless works of art. Plus a slew of rites, rituals, exorcisms, transubstantiation etc -- it's the closest you can get to mainstream wizardry without buying a bunch of Llewellyn Press books from some broad named Auraglow Moonwolf and watching a shitload of "Charmed".


Smiley: laugh He really should give that as the reason why he wants to convert when he starts his RCIA classes.
#35 Mar 29 2007 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent
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Jophiel wrote:
conquering South and Central America and killing up the Vatican with priceless works of art.


Quite the Freudian typo, there, faithboy.
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#36 Mar 29 2007 at 8:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Atheist.


Evangelists and fundamentalists must be destroyed. The rest of the theists can live. WHO'S WITH ME? COME ON! WHO'S WITH ME?

#37 Mar 29 2007 at 8:28 AM Rating: Excellent
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Plus we get the Swiss Guard! With halberds!
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#38 Mar 29 2007 at 8:30 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
conquering South and Central America and filling up the Vatican with priceless works of art.
And the Pacific Ocean with gold sovereigns!
#39 Mar 29 2007 at 8:52 AM Rating: Excellent
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I'm not any religion t'all, but I can say that when I was younger, I "tried out" 5 or 6 different religions/denominations by attending services just to see what they were all about (neither of my parents are religious either). I've spent time going to a catholic church, episcopalian (I'm spelling that wrong), penecostal (probably that too), a jewish temple, a quaker meeting house, and attended several meetings with mormons. I spent a couple of months going to Sunday services at a Baptist church since I really liked the very down-to-earth pastor there.

It was neat.

Also: I also stole a JW from God for a week, but I think he rejoined the fold once I was done with him. I don't think that really counts as experimenting with the religion though.

Nexa
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#40 Mar 29 2007 at 9:17 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Aethien wrote:
i do not believe. and i probably never will, since religion has been the reason for many many wars. (and still is.)
thus, religion is something that threatens this world, i cannot believe in that.
You know what's caused even more wars? Property ownership. Land, wealth, people, etc.

Have you given up owning land and possessions yet? If you don't believe, that's fine. But your reasoning for it is kind of shakey.

ok, i'll take that back. my post wasnt really well written, i'll try to explain what i mean.
it is mostly the extremists in the religion, the most firm beleivers that i am so against. that are the people that start wars, and the same goes for property/wealth.
the ones that want it the most will start wars for it.
i dont have anything against christians, muslims, jews or whatever. i just cannot believe in something that is lead by people who would start a war to prove their right. or say that other people are wrong because of something that is written in their book....

and i have almost given up all my worldy possesions.
as i said, i have been to tibet, and i had the urge to stay there and become a monk.
i decided not to do that, because i want to have more education here before i do anything there.
as well as that it is hard to say goodbye to something you grew up with.
(and i hate yakbutter tea XD)
#41 Mar 29 2007 at 10:03 AM Rating: Good
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Red's post could have been written about me (except for the Catholic part). That's pretty much what I believe too.

Where do I sign up??
#42 Mar 29 2007 at 10:05 AM Rating: Decent
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#43 Mar 29 2007 at 10:57 AM Rating: Decent
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I think this thread may have set a record for a religious discussion not degragading to flames.
#44 Mar 29 2007 at 10:58 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kachi wrote:
I think this thread may have set a record for a religious discussion not degragading to flames.


Give it time, give it time!

Nexa
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#45 Mar 29 2007 at 11:25 AM Rating: Decent
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The time is now!

Death to all Christians!
#46 Mar 29 2007 at 11:35 AM Rating: Decent
My father was is a non practicing baptist, my mom is non-denominational. I was dragged kicking and screaming to many different churches by my grand parents (may they rot in hell). I believe there is a higher plane of life out there, but I'm not ready to say it's a "god". I believe in Karma, but this whole "my god > your god" is crap. Not quite sure what that would make me.
#47 Mar 29 2007 at 12:16 PM Rating: Decent
Nadenu wrote:
Red's post could have been written about me (except for the Catholic part). That's pretty much what I believe too.

Where do I sign up??


Give me a couple of days and we can sort something out.

And we'll be rich! Ron L. Hubbard rich!

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#48 Mar 29 2007 at 1:54 PM Rating: Default
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I dislike when people with the same Faith as me start out with "selling" the religion. Basically Christians aren't called to convince you that you should become a Christian. When Man's objective is to convince he sets himself up for failure. Man is called to receive the gift of Jesus Christ, find their purpose, then be an ambassador: 2 Corinthians 5:20

"We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us."

The word "religion/religious" is found 11 times in the Scriptures. And the most interesting one is this: James 1:27

"Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world."

From a logical standpoint, this is a good thing. A routine that helps people and a routine that keeps oneself from being polluted.

From a Spiritual Standpoint; how glorious it is not Religion that saves us, but it is a gift from God, Jesus Christ, that saves us: Romans 3:23-25

"23for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement,[a] through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished—"

If the Lord our God wanted us to be caught up in Religion then it would be Religion that saves us. I can't logically believe that going to Church every Sunday will get me into Heaven. And the Scriptures have confirmed that its through Jesus Christ that we are saved: Ephesians 2:4-10

"4But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy, 5made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions—it is by grace you have been saved. 6And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, 7in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus. 8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9not by works, so that no one can boast. 10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do."

Christ in Hebrew means savior. So Christians are people who have been Saved. Thats it. But something went terribly wrong...Christians started labeling themselves with worldly things.

I can't find one Scripture that tells me, me as in myself, to give myself a Label. And no where does it tell me to make a symbol for myself. The Jews have the Star of David...but no where in the Old Testament was David told to create a symbol. In actuality thats a Hexagram used in the Kabbalah(Hebrew for mysticism.) What I have found is what God has called Man who believes; Ambassador, Children of God, Saved. According to the Scriptures He is Holy therefor I would have to logically conclude that these are not labels but Holy names. Its a concept I still don't understand but in my heart it speaks Truth.

Its really difficult to understand this because of how the Church has acted in the past. What needs to happen is a return to the Basics which will be explained below.

Back to the Basics wrote:


It probably wouldn't work, but somebody ought to start a movement back to the basics. And again, it might be just novel enough to not only catch on, but to flourish.

How long has it been since you walked into a store without seeing "New" or "Improved" written on every bottle? And toothpaste? There's a new ingredient added every week. If you don't have FL-7, Amalgam-58, ammoniate, fluoride, chlorophyll, etc., your teeth are sure to fall out before you finish reading the label. Regardless of how faithful you have been in brushing your teeth in the past, that doesn't count if you have missed out on the latest ingredient.
It's a wonder people ever got their clothes clean in the past. Just think of it! They actually used non-miraculous soap, and often with "non-purified" water. What a world!

Do you recall what happened to Coca Cola when they wasted multi-millions of dollars bringing out the "New" Coke? Improvement went too far and irate customers wouldn't drink the new stuff. Coca Cola almost immediately decided the old drink wasn't so bad after all. This time they returned to the old formula, but gave it a new name (Classic). What a world!

Given the state of our times, it's hardly any wonder that there are countless preachers out trying to sell a "new" and "improved" Christianity. Let us pray that it will have the same success Coca Cola enjoyed.


Basically Christians need to go back to what the Living Word says.

What I believe, which is directly from the Scriptures is I am to be an ambassador. I never found a Scripture telling me to be convincing. I don't need to be convincing to any of you. This isn't something I would try to win. I only wish to be the messenger for God. And the message I have is, Eternal Life is a gift from God and that you will find your purpose in Jesus Christ.

The Scriptures also say that the Holy Spirit will be with us:

John 14 wrote:

Jesus Comforts His Disciples
1"Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God[a]; trust also in me. 2In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. 3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4You know the way to the place where I am going."
Jesus the Way to the Father
5Thomas said to him, "Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?"

6Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7If you really knew me, you would know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him."

8Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us."

9Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves. 12I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
Jesus Promises the Holy Spirit
15"If you love me, you will obey what I command. 16And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Counselor to be with you forever— 17the Spirit of truth. The world cannot accept him, because it neither sees him nor knows him. But you know him, for he lives with you and will be[c] in you. 18I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you. 19Before long, the world will not see me anymore, but you will see me. Because I live, you also will live. 20On that day you will realize that I am in my Father, and you are in me, and I am in you. 21Whoever has my commands and obeys them, he is the one who loves me. He who loves me will be loved by my Father, and I too will love him and show myself to him."

22Then Judas (not Judas Iscariot) said, "But, Lord, why do you intend to show yourself to us and not to the world?"

23Jesus replied, "If anyone loves me, he will obey my teaching. My Father will love him, and we will come to him and make our home with him. 24He who does not love me will not obey my teaching. These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me.

25"All this I have spoken while still with you. 26But the Counselor, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have said to you. 27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid.

28"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. 29I have told you now before it happens, so that when it does happen you will believe. 30I will not speak with you much longer, for the prince of this world is coming. He has no hold on me, 31but the world must learn that I love the Father and that I do exactly what my Father has commanded me.
"Come now; let us leave.


Power of Indwelling Christ wrote:

A Buddhist monk in Ceylon, who was acquainted with both Christianity and Buddhism, was once asked what he thought was the great difference between the two. He replied, "There is much that is good in each of them, and probably in all religions. But what seems to me to be the greatest difference is that you Christians know what is right and have power to do it, while we Buddhists know what is right but have not any such power."


This is the short summary of what I call my Faith.
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#49 Mar 29 2007 at 1:58 PM Rating: Decent
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This is the short summary of what I call my Faith.


That no one will read. But here it is in the ether forever.
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#50 Mar 29 2007 at 2:02 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

This is the short summary of what I call my Faith.


That no one will read. But here it is in the ether forever.
I'm perfectly okay with people not reading it. Gotta love free will.
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#51 Mar 29 2007 at 3:44 PM Rating: Decent
I was going to say Zen Catholic, but it turns out that actually real, so instead how about Catholic, twice removed? All of the guilt, but without the benefits of confession, etc.
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