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#152 Mar 16 2007 at 9:44 AM Rating: Decent
Barkingturtle wrote:
I consider you responsible for her death, because clearly you didn't swat her on the bottom enough, a mistake I would never make. May your guilt hang over you like the impending welt of a naughty child. If you choose to make amends, I recommend you cut yourself, because it's a more adult alternative, and because being a grown-up can be lonely, when there's noone to spank you.


Oh I'm perfectly fine, my step-dad gives me all the spanking I need.

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#153 Mar 16 2007 at 11:10 AM Rating: Excellent
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RPx wrote:
Oh I'm perfectly fine, my step-dad gives me all the spanking I need.


Is he hot?
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#154 Mar 16 2007 at 1:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

I'm suggesting that studies attempting to determine whether spanking when used "correctly" is a viable child rearing technique should attempt to remove those instances from the study, but pretty much all the studies Smash linked did the exact opposite. They increased the weight of their studies by factoring in frequency and forcefulness. Thus, the maybe 10% of households where spanking was used and the parents were abusive in it's use end up accounting for a much higher rate of spanking *and* a higher rate of troubled kids down the line.


Statistics not a required field of study for Unix admins, I take it?


In the engineering world, we call it "analytics", but it's basically the same thing. With the notable exception that we use the data we collect to attempt to actually figure out how things really work or what methods work best, wheras most statistics are used in the softer field (like yours) typically to try to convince people that a given already arrived at pre-assumption held by the person manipulating the statistics is the right course of action.

Other then that, they're identical...
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#155 Mar 18 2007 at 1:57 AM Rating: Decent
I'm going to try and keep from being aggressive, because I know that most spankers really believe they are not abusive, and it's because they have not learned otherwise.

Hitting your kid is an outlet for the parent, because you are frustrated. If hitting your kid(s) works for you, it's only because they have learned to be scared of you. Myself, I would want my children making the right choices because I have taught them and actually done my job as a parent.

Some things to check out...123 Magic or Parenting With Love and Logic. What could it hurt to check either of those out?
#156 Mar 18 2007 at 2:11 AM Rating: Default
Bloody [s]*********** spankers.

Edited, Mar 18th 2007 5:11am by MonxDoT
#157 Mar 18 2007 at 5:52 AM Rating: Decent
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I generally believe in spanking and will likely use it to punish my child(ren). If only because my parents rarely, if ever, used discipline on me and as a result I have no self discipline.
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we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#158 Mar 18 2007 at 5:20 PM Rating: Decent
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In the engineering world, we call it "analytics", but it's basically the same thing. With the notable exception that we use the data we collect to attempt to actually figure out how things really work or what methods work best, wheras most statistics are used in the softer field (like yours)


Poker? Nah they're really pretty useful.

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#159 Mar 18 2007 at 5:26 PM Rating: Decent
I was spanked, therefor I will spank. I may not enjoy doing it, but it works.
#160 Mar 18 2007 at 8:32 PM Rating: Good
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My mom was an E.C.E graduate (read: daycare worker) who only ever spanked me once that I can recall. My dad, as far as I remember, has *never* hit me. Therefore, I think it's pretty safe to say that I personally intend to try everything else I have learned through them, school, and my own teaching experience before resorting to spanking.

However, one thing I would like to point out on the pro/against argument, is the sheer amount of physical discipline used in the schools I teach at here in Japan.* I have seen both teachers and parents smack their kids upside the head, both lightly (in gest) and seriously (in discipline). Also, when something *really* bad is done, the kid doesn't get beat up - he merely gets a very *loud* lecture (usually from an intimidating teacher or one he/she respects), which I swear the kid takes way worse than being smacked.

One thing I've noticed is that even the youngest children quickly catch on that in order to show someone that what they're doing is wrong, a hard smack is a deterrent. Now, obviously the conclusion there is that the children learn to solve social issues with violence, right?

Well, while I personally agree with that, the other side to that is that the kids also understand the difference between "discipline" and "violence" in most cases. Japan is a *very* different culture than the NA culture, so all other comparisons are generally difficult to make, but here at least I can safely say that most kids do understand the difference between a smack on the bottom and a punch in the face. When the kids here argue, they very *very* rarely break out into real fights, which is probably the most interesting point.

I guess it just really puts things in a different perspective for me, because I was very um... conservative about what I thought was appropriate for a child before coming here. I still am, but I guess it makes me more understanding and respective of other people's decisions when it comes to child rearing. Though, in the end I think I'll still try to avoid the spanking of my child >.>





*Note: This is not necessarily representitive of ALL of Japan, or even the majority. I can only speak for 2 elementary and 2 junior high schools in a small town where I currently live
#161 Mar 18 2007 at 10:06 PM Rating: Decent
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My parents used to beat the shit out of me, and looking back on it I'm glad they did...I'm looking forward to beating the shit out of my own kids. For no reason...*Whap* "What was that for?" "Nothing, now get out there and mow the lawn!" There's therapy for ya, crying and mowing the lawn at the same time. "Baahhahaaaaa"*BRRRRRRRRRRR*

"The Leary kid's in therapy again, their lawn looks wonderful, it's unbelievable!"
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
#162 Mar 18 2007 at 10:21 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

Really? The conventional wisdom seems to be that it's wise to stop hitting them when they might hit back.




This was how one of my friends parents actually decided when his kids were to old to be spanked. When my friend was 14 her father spanked her and she turned around and slapped him and he never spanked her again. Was rather funny when she told me the story, but it seems like a good place to stop.

I was spanked as a child, usually for throwing a tantrum, and I'm a fairly normal person. My sister was not spanked, and she is a horrible excuse for a daughter.
#163 Mar 19 2007 at 2:21 AM Rating: Decent
Samira wrote:
RPx wrote:
Oh I'm perfectly fine, my step-dad gives me all the spanking I need.


Is he hot?


He's spanking hot!


And whoever said the French had no sense of humour...

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#164 Mar 22 2007 at 5:41 AM Rating: Decent
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Parents who think spanking is ok as a last resort have a clear differnce in their minds between what constitutes child abuse, or violent abuse, and what constitutes a disciplinary smack. (A disciplinary smack is very very light, and is done once, or three slow measured times at the outset, on the bottom, or hand, with the flat of your own palm.)

The idea is that hopefully you will never actually have to hit your child. It is also incredibly important never to hit your child when you are angry or stressed out youself, becuase your judgement is suspect, and your physical coordination is impaired, so it's likely that you will smack too hard. The third thing is to have read up on or otherwise learned as many parenting techniques as possible before you have the kid.

If you've had to smack your child more than about 4 or 5 times in its life, then it may be time to learn some more about parenting techniques.

The idea, when a child is preverbal, is to physically keep them out of harm's way, and mischief, or harming other children/people, by physically removing them from the situation, and distracting them. In some cases... especially when they are getting the hang of "good" and "naughty" behaviour, a short sharp loud "NO!" is useful, as are expressions, stances or gestures to let them know the action is dissapproved of.

As soon as a child is verbal, it's time to start teaching rules, and to tell them there are punishments that go with some of the rule breaking. The smaller the child, the more simple you put things. OF COURSE you want techniques like the ones in 3,2,1, Magic, and Parenting with Love and Logic, in your ********

The thing is, that some children, or some situations, just aren't covered by these other techniques.

The whole reason that parents have to use systems of rewards and punishments in the first place, is that children start out with no logic, and no comprehension of all the consequences in the world, that happen for each action in the world. They are learning all the time THROUGH action and consequence, but they have to go through all the simple, obvious, immediate ones first, before they get to a really good understanding of the complex, abstract, long delayed and far-away consequences.

A lot of children won't ever need a spank, because all the other techniques work with them. That's great, and it's ideal, but it's also a really lucky outcome. There are some children, who will do something serious, and just won't learn not to do it, without having been spanked once in their lives.

That's because all their own urges that they are feeling inside right now are drowning out any very distant and hazy notions of why it might not be a good idea. This is when it's not the consequence of the action itself is not enough to stop the child, but the fact that Mummy and Daddy say "No", and if I do it anyway I'm going to get punished has to be enough to stop the child. For some children, with some urges, it's only the idea of getting a smack that will stop them.

For some children, the idea of lighter punishments aren't enough to overcome some immediate urges. (And I'm talking about things where the parents aren't in the same place, or have their hands full and can't intervene in any action the child does.) If a child does something serious, and has been told it's against the rules, then it's time to apply the pre-detrmined punishment. If the child does that serious thing again, it's time to give the punishment AND to tell the child that next time it does it, it's getting a smack. If the rule is flouted a third time, it's time for a smack.

In the case for a toddler, a really light smack might be appropriate immediately after any really dangerous activity. The child is learning through actions and consequences right? Well it's too dangerous for the kid to learn first hand the consequence of sticking a hand in a fire, or boiling water. If a "No!" or a dominant pose and a wagging finger won't keep a child away from a fire, or a road, then I think a light smack on the hand (that stings for a few moments) is a really good stand-in consequence for a burnt hand, or getting run over.

And no, it's not possible to totally child-proof a life, so that such stand-in smacks are completely unnecessary for all children in all situations.

If a child is still physically fighting (after all the talks, logic, and punishment tactics) there is one of two things happening. Either the idea of other people's pain is obviously still too abstract and far away. Or the child is getting in situations when it is feeling really hurt, and wants to inflict pain back, in retaliation, or to educate the other person how they fell inside.

In the second case, you need to teach the child better problem solving skills. In the first case, this is where a judicious application of "this is how it feels" can work wonders. Tell the child: the next time you bite someone, I'm going to bite you in the same place, to show you what it feels like. (push someone, pinch someone, slap someone etc. Obviously if the child has done something really dangerous, modify what you do to them.) If it does happen again, then calmly and clinically do exactly what they did, making sure your pressure is light. "See? That's what it feels like." In almost every case, that lesson will never have to be repeated.

For a little toddler who has a bad habit of lunging, biting deeply and hanging on, one immediate light bite on the forearm can stop that habit dead. You have engaged in direct, intimate communication with the child. They instantly make the connection between their own mouth's actions and your mouth's actions. I'm not saying that you should do this every ar any time your toddler hits or kicks. But doing it just the once is often a really effective lesson, and seems to work especially effectively with biting.

Of course, you want to teach your child the difference between real violent behaviour, and play fights, which are still an important bonding physical activity, especially amongst family and males.

Edited, Mar 22nd 2007 9:42am by Aripyanfar
#165 Mar 22 2007 at 8:04 AM Rating: Good
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When my stepson was 2 years old, he figured out how to remove the safety insert from electrical outlets. One day he decided he wanted to remove the safety insert and insert some item into the outlet. Reason and telling him not to do so did not faze him. Explaining that it will hurt or burn or kill him did not slow him down. It was a several hour battle all day long to keep him away from the outlet, constantly taking away items from him. Finally while we were sitting down watching TV and we had thought he had forgotten about it, he snuck off to the outlet just out of view and removed the safety cover and tried to insert a set of metal keys into it. I noticed him doing this just at this point, and took a toy plastic broom that was on the end table and swung it at his hand just as he was inserting it. I stopped him from inserting the key, but I hit him pretty hard with the toy broom. It must have realy hurt because he cried for a long time and had a mark on his hand. I felt really bad about hitting him that way, but the stubborn brat really did not give me a choice. To his day he thinks he was electricuted and that is what caused the pain, and he never tried to touch an outlet again.

The overall point is that at a certain aqe children cannot be reasoned with and the threats of loss of priveledge may not be enough to protect them from hurting themselves. In such cases spanking the child may be necessary as a deternce from electricuting themselves, burning themselves, runnign in front of traffice etc.
#166 Mar 22 2007 at 8:50 AM Rating: Decent
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And no, it's not possible to totally child-proof a life, so that such stand-in smacks are completely unnecessary for all children in all situations.


Of course it is. It's just HARDER for the parents.

That's the whole point. There's ZERO reason to EVER hit children, save for convenience for the parents. That's it. You can argue that there's no damage done to the kid, so it's worth it, just like feeding them pre-packaged food that's essentially nutrionless is worth it if it saves time because it's not harmful, but there's absolutely no argument that hitting children is required.

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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#167 Mar 22 2007 at 8:54 AM Rating: Good
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fhrugby the Sly wrote:
When my stepson was 2 years old, he figured out how to remove the safety insert from electrical outlets. One day he decided he wanted to remove the safety insert and insert some item into the outlet. Reason and telling him not to do so did not faze him. Explaining that it will hurt or burn or kill him did not slow him down. It was a several hour battle all day long to keep him away from the outlet, constantly taking away items from him. Finally while we were sitting down watching TV and we had thought he had forgotten about it, he snuck off to the outlet just out of view and removed the safety cover and tried to insert a set of metal keys into it. I noticed him doing this just at this point, and took a toy plastic broom that was on the end table and swung it at his hand just as he was inserting it. I stopped him from inserting the key, but I hit him pretty hard with the toy broom. It must have realy hurt because he cried for a long time and had a mark on his hand. I felt really bad about hitting him that way, but the stubborn brat really did not give me a choice. To his day he thinks he was electricuted and that is what caused the pain, and he never tried to touch an outlet again.

The overall point is that at a certain aqe children cannot be reasoned with and the threats of loss of priveledge may not be enough to protect them from hurting themselves. In such cases spanking the child may be necessary as a deternce from electricuting themselves, burning themselves, runnign in front of traffice etc.


Yep. Just like a dog. They should make those shock collars for toddlers. Not only is it good training, but it's hours of entertainment!

/nod
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#168 Mar 22 2007 at 8:54 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smasharoo wrote:
There's ZERO reason to EVER hit children, save for convenience for the parents. That's it.
What if you need to tackle them out of the path of a freight train, huh, smart guy? Huh?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#169 Mar 22 2007 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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What if you need to tackle them out of the path of a freight train, huh, smart guy?


Why would the nanny have them near a train? Jesus, I'd have to fire Guadalupe and go with an imported Au Pair from the UK. Shake it up baby now...twist and shout...
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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#170 Mar 22 2007 at 11:14 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
That's the whole point. There's ZERO reason to EVER hit children, save for convenience for the parents. That's it. You can argue that there's no damage done to the kid, so it's worth it, just like feeding them pre-packaged food that's essentially nutrionless is worth it if it saves time because it's not harmful, but there's absolutely no argument that hitting children is required.

I'd have to disagree...a little bit *more* discipline on my parents' part may very well have kept me out of jail and my brother out of prison.
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publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
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