I think we touched on this before....Follow

Well, yeah. It does. The fact that you can't see why makes me wonder why you're even in this thread.

The fact that you can't see that an adult hitting a toddler is a bad idea completely baffles me. I can't for the life of me imagine you hitting an adult in almost any but the most dire circumstance, but for some reason, that I freely admit I genuinely don't understand, somewhere along the line you came to the conclusion that hitting kids was all right. Well, your kids, I'm assuming. You wouldn't hit someone else kid in the exact same circumstances naturally. Property rights and all that.

This is rare with my oldest, as she usually listens within the first couple of times I tell her to do something, and I haven't had to spank her in years.

Or ever?

Whatever's easier though, I guess.

Actually, I don't disagree with you. There are moments, when a kid is throwing a tantrum, for instance, that the only way to get through to them is to shock them somehow, and often a swat will do that quite effectively. It doesn't even have to hurt--it's the surprise of being struck when that's not something that normally happens that makes the impact. The thing is NOT to use it punitively, because you don't want your kid growing up in fear of violence or thinking violence is okay. I had one friend who, every time her toddler started to bother her, was all, "Do you want me to take you into the other room and spank you?" and honestly, if you have to threaten corporal punishment several times a day, it's useless, and that IS a failure on the parents' part. It's meant to be a last-ditch effort, not the default position.

Eh, just toss 'em into ice water.

Well, usually, but by suggesting we use children as adorable little ashtrays I was more or less pointing out the absurdity of using violence as a teaching method. I guess a little bit of violence is okay, though.

I feel dirty using the word violence, up yours, MonxTwat.

I was never spanked by my parents, but my dad was a wrestler in college, so as soon as I got big enough, he had other ways of making me listen.

Bounding into the room in his old singleton?

Other than to protect them from more serious, immediate danger, I'd never hit a child.

I say that now, only because Hannah hasn't actually caused a complete mental breakdown yet. Check back in a few months.

Nexa

Joph, let me ask a serious question, just for a change of pace.

Does gender matter at all? If Joph Jr. were a girl would it have mattered?

I don't really get that, either. I mean, why not just remove them from the situation post haste, rather than hitting them? Or at least let them injure themselves first, and then hit them, so they understand that hurting themselves is bad.

THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN DISCIPLINE AND VIOLENCE.


Yeah, one involves hitting people.


Hitting a child first, before any other steps are taken is in most cases, wrong. If there is mortal danger involved, swat them on the rump, or whatever the situation demands, but always try to go the route that makes the most sense. This doesn't mean punch your child, it means discipline your child. In every case where I've had to discipline my children, I tell them why they're being punished, and why they're being punished in the way I am punishing them.

Right, that makes even less sense to me. I can *almost* buy the 'there's no other option when you can't communicate effectively to them and they're doing something that could damage them if you don't curb the behavior. Almost.

The 'I'm hitting you because you were bad and this is your punishment' thing is completely non intuitive to me. It's literally teaching them that violence is a logical escalation teaching.


It's not the same as just randomly beating your child because you're angry about something esle. Hitting a child for any reason other than discipline is an extremely bad idea, as it teaches that child to be abusive, rather than understand that thier actions cause reactions, and to learn from ther mistakes.

So no, punching your child isn't the same as a spanking.

Yeah, I'm not confused. I understand the argument abstractly, it just seems like a mssive cop out that's translated to 'it's harder not to'.

Clearly it's not impossible to raise well adjusted kids without hitting them. No one's arguing that it's REQUIRED, are they?

So essentially, given the option of hitting your kid (which we all agree isn't the same as punching them and that there's a rationale and that it's not random, etc.) or some other method of teaching them boundaries, you chose to go with hitting them. Not because it's more effective or nessicary, just because it 'gets their attention'?

Or maybe the argument is that it is more effective. You tell me.

Kool-aid!

Hah!

Ha ha, I knew this would go down a slippery slope quickly. Again, I'm talking about spanking versus abuse. They don't equate. Tare, I have yet to encounter anything Joph Jr. would ever do to me that would necessitate a spanking, even if I would consider touching him, which I wouldn't, because he's not my kid.

I tell Joph all the time that he's in for a hell of a ride with any child I give him, though, because we come from asshole genes, and we start fucking with each other straight out of the womb. My neice would throw a screaming tantrum over anything that nothing would cease, not even a spanking, from the time she could make a sound. We pretty much just let her hurt herself and eventually, she learned from experience. My nephew never threw tantrums, but is old enough to be disrespectuful at times, and knows when my brother whomps his butt that he means business and he straightens right up and pays attention to the subsequent explanation of why his butt got whomped that he wouldn't have sat still for before. I can remember being spanked when I wouldn't listen, a quick tap on the rear, but the only time I got smacked for real was when I mocked my mother and screamed at her, and boy, I never did that again, nor do I use it to children as to what works and what doesn't.

However, if my teenage daughter ever called me a *****, I would probably slap her, and she'd deserve it. The older I get, the less I like to be fucked with.



Edited, Mar 15th 2007 11:35am by Atomicflea