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Interesting thoughts on "Hate crimes" bills...Follow

#1 Feb 16 2007 at 12:30 PM Rating: Decent
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http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=54260

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The plan, proposed by Rep. Sheila Jackson-Lee, D-Texas, is "stealth legislation at its most devious," Pike has written in a campaign to alert people to the potential problems. He said people respond with, "This bill just wants federal power to prosecute bias-motivated violent crimes in the states – what's wrong with that?"

"There's plenty wrong with that!" he said. First, the Constitution does not grant federal government the "police state privilege" of being your local law enforcement. "Unless the government finds evidence of slavery in the states, jury tampering, voter fraud, or crimes involving interstate commerce (where jurisdiction is unclear), the Constitution's message to the federal government is blunt and emphatic: 'Butt out of local law enforcement!'"


I want to preface the following by saying that I don't like "hate". Hating someone for something that is not hurting you is just stupid. "Hate" period is just stupid. Also, I think some of the arguments in the article are a bit silly, but you have to be a little over the top at times to point out the flaws in things.

I think the current, and previous batch of bills are pointless. They will either be enforced, and push the citizens of this country into another Civil War, or they won't be enforced, and will instead sit on the books for decades, doing nothing.

Attempting to jail or fine someone for speaking their opinion in public is fully against the First Amendment rights that we have in this country. One of the greatest freedoms we have is the ability to speak our feelings, even if they're contrary to the feelings of the majority of the population. This has been an argument for years that many in Congress itself has attempted to take away, and sadly, there have been some successes. The simple fact that we have the right to speak out against our leaders could be perceived as hate speach. That would imprision most of the nation.

I think more importantly, rather than our government attempt to silence "hate" and promote "tolerance", we should be working on this in our homes, IF we want to. There should be nothing manditory about loving, liking, or even tolerating, ANYONE. The moment you force tolerance, is the moment that you have given your lives as you known them away. You are now a ward of the state. You are not allowed to speak, much less think you own thoughts.

Can someone please explain what would make us different from England, pre-Revolutionary War, if we start to dictate through laws what people are "allowed" to say? Are we a better society than those who followed the Church of England, and claimed that there was no other way? At what point after we control speach do we start trying to control thought? It could be argued that we're already attempting to do that via public schools, and media outlets, which leave out critical facts, either through bias, or outright removal of them because they don't fit in our image of history.

I'm not expecting a lot of support in my idea, but for those that want such legislation on the books, think twice about the rights you want to give up for the sake of someone else's discomfort. At what point will you have to give up more because someone else takes offence to something else? How long before you wake up and realize that you've given up all of your rights? Oh ok, I admit the likelyhood of thought being outlawed in our lifetime is a bit much, but what about those of us that are parents, should a "hate crime" bill be passed, will our grandchildren be allowed to think for themselves?
#2REDACTED, Posted: Feb 16 2007 at 12:46 PM, Rating: Sub-Default, (Expand Post) Anyone hear about Tim Hardaway ex nba 5 time allstar go on about how much he hates gays. Of course the NBA has now banned him from the all-star game. Could Hardaway sue for a violation of his first amendment rights? Obviously if he hadn't said what he said he'd still be welcomed at the allstar game.
#3 Feb 16 2007 at 12:56 PM Rating: Excellent
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achileez wrote:
Could Hardaway sue for a violation of his first amendment rights?
Not unless the state has taken control of the NBA since last I checked.
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#4 Feb 16 2007 at 1:01 PM Rating: Decent
achileez wrote:
Anyone hear about Tim Hardaway ex nba 5 time allstar go on about how much he hates gays. Of course the NBA has now banned him from the all-star game. Could Hardaway sue for a violation of his first amendment rights? Obviously if he hadn't said what he said he'd still be welcomed at the allstar game.

Varus



Nope he couldn't. He is essentially an employee of the NBA (indirectly speaking) because he plays for a team. The team has to follow all policies the NBA puts out, and subsequently as do players.
#5 Feb 16 2007 at 1:02 PM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
achileez wrote:
Could Hardaway sue for a violation of his first amendment rights?
Not unless the state has taken control of the NBA since last I checked.


Not to mention, Freedom of Speech doesn't apply to Hate Speech.
#6 Feb 16 2007 at 1:38 PM Rating: Decent
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Not to mention, Freedom of Speech doesn't apply to Hate Speech.


Of course it does.

I ******* hate people who don't understand the exceptionally minor limitations on speech.
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#7 Feb 16 2007 at 1:55 PM Rating: Decent
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achileez wrote:
Anyone hear about Tim Hardaway ex nba 5 time allstar go on about how much he hates gays. Of course the NBA has now banned him from the all-star game. Could Hardaway sue for a violation of his first amendment rights? Obviously if he hadn't said what he said he'd still be welcomed at the allstar game.

Varus


He has the right to share his feelings, and his employer has the ability to blackball him. As has already been mentioned, his employer can bar him from company related functions. I may not agree with that stance, but they can do that.
#8 Feb 16 2007 at 6:58 PM Rating: Default
the federal government is exactly where hate crimes belong, and exactly where whatever punnishment is to be delt out should be decided on.

it is a constitutional issue. discrimination. federal court is where it belongs. it is no differant than a fee speach issue. to argue that it should be a local police issue is ludicris.

left to local government is exactly why slavery existed for so long. local = biased. to say it should not be dictated to us is also ludicris. go to any small town in the midwest or texas and ask if you think letting them make their own decissions is a GOOD idea. hell, they would still be lynching blacks from trees if the federal government would let them.

people are biased. sometimes, especially with some issues, individuals NEED to be dictated to and not left to make their own decisions. local idiots elect like minded local politicians who are also idiots. sometimes they need to be put in their place. sometimes they need to be FORCED to do the right thing.

its sad, but its true.
#9 Feb 16 2007 at 7:17 PM Rating: Decent
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So, what should we give up next? The right to vote, because some can't make informed decisions about who to vote for (the idiots that only vote party lines without bothering to understand the issues, you've seen these people), or because they vote based on race related issues?

Maybe we should give up our firearms, because the criminals (who obtain them outside of legal bounds anyway)?

How about we give up the ability to drive, because people drive under the influence of narcotics, and kill people?

Be careful what you wish for.
#10 Feb 16 2007 at 7:51 PM Rating: Decent
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Whenever I see/hear "hate crime" it makes me want to watch South Park #50.
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#11 Feb 16 2007 at 8:19 PM Rating: Good
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I'm also not sure that his speech represents "hate speech". In order to be hate speech the statement has to be derogatory and inflamatory, typically also including some sort of encouragement of harm towards the person/group in question.

Hate speech must still meet the criteria set by the Supreme Court for "harmful speech", in that it must cause a "clear and present danger" to something. Originally, this meant to the nation's security, but over time it's been expanded to mean public safety (covering things like yelling "Fire" in a crowded theatre or calling on people to lynch black folks).

He didn't call anyone to action, nor encourage anyone to adopt any action (not even his own position). He simply stated his opinion. He said he hates gay people. He's free to do that. Whether or not he can legally be fined/fired/whatever for saying it is going to depend on the contract he signed.


As to the proposed law in question, it depends on exactly what types of behavior it's trying to make illegal. Opinions expressed without any call to action should *always* be protected speech. No matter how much you or I may disagree with the opinion itself. Only that speech that calls for action of some sort when the action itself is deemed to be illegal should ever be even considered for legistlative restriction. And even then, we should tread very very lightly.

The same lack of legistlation that allows the KKK to march and express their opinions of non-white folks also protects pro-immigrant marches and anti-war marches. I really think that this sort of thing usually hurts everyone more then it helps.
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#12 Feb 16 2007 at 8:37 PM Rating: Excellent
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I hate criminals.
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#13 Feb 17 2007 at 3:06 AM Rating: Default
Interesting thoughts on dollar dollar bills y'all.

despite all your Rates, you are still just a Rat in a cage!

<secret destroyer>

Edited, Feb 17th 2007 6:22am by MonxDoT
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