Theoretical question about GWBFollow

Understanding that most of you despise Bush, I ask that you put aside your hatred for a moment and attempt to objectively answer a question about his presidency.

Assume for the moment that the Iraq War had not happened, nor was there ever a threat of it. I suppose we can also throw in the stipulation that after 9/11 we did go into Afganistan and it went well-- which for the most part it has until recently where the Taliban has been reading from the Iraqi insurgent's playbook.

Ok, based on these conditions where would you place the Bush presidency in terms of greatness? I ask this because the Dow broke another new record today (12,741), inflation is well under control, the economy is humming along at a very sustainable and prosperous 7% per year, taxes are low, and personal income is up 3% across the board. Based on the whole "It's the economy, stupid," standard by which Clinton is revered, Bush has, to my eyes, far surpassed the previous tenent of the Oval Office. Now add to Bush's accomplishments the creation of the largest ever nature preserve off Hawaii, the most racially and genderally diverse administration in the history of our country, the killing or capture of terrorists who attacked our embassies and naval ships during previous administrations, and increased funding for education every year he has held our highest office.

By any criteria, once you set aside Iraq, I'd judge him to be a wild success-- and this would apply to any president regardless of his political affliation.

Let's hear your argument for or against Bush based on those assumptions I specified.

Totem

He would be an average ho-hum prez. We would still be in debt to China and have social security threatened. He wouldn't be that bad if he could keep his cronies on a leash.

Without the Iraq war we would have the Federal Marriage Amendment, abortion would be illegal on the Federal level, no stem cell research, and a hell of a lot less seperation of (the Christian) Church and State. North Korea would also be the big button issue.

It probably takes a good 20 years of hindsight and longterm effects to get an accurate portrait.

But yeah, at this moment, stem cells, gay marriage, and generally Godding up the joint are some of my bones to pick.

Abortion never would have been repealed on the national level, Git.

So for tricky and you others stem cell research and gay marriage sinks the Bush presidency? Wow. That's a stringent threshold for success, guys. I'm not sure that anybody could please you then. After all, regardless who gets elected into office, they still have roughly half the other country to contend with and placate.

Furthermore, Barack and Hillary both are professed born-again Christians and have close personal ties to ministers. I hate to point this out to you, but just because they are members of the Democratic party doesn't mean they will govern without consulting their deeply held spiritual beliefs.

Totem

Ok, then, I'm all ears. Like I said, based on the gold standard of previous presidents (Clinton=economy, Nixon=diplomacy, Reagan=lower taxes, etc) how does GWB measure up? All I ask is that you set aside any emotional knee-jerk dislike and pretend the Iraq War hadn't happened.

The thing is, I don't see any love for what is happening with the economy. NBC showed a poll a month or so ago that said only 31% of Americans thought Bush was handling the economy well. My immediate thought was that beyond what is going on with gasoline prices you couldn't do a better job with the economy.

It seemed like negative spill-over from the public perception of the war, not because of any reasonable expectation of what the economy should be doing.

Totem

I had a post mostly written about how the DOW has reached "record levels" in every six-year period (to mitigate short-term drops) and all the economic indicators one could throw out to say "things suck!" such as foreclosure/bankruptcy rate, wage stagnation, savings/debt levels, etc.

But the short answer is that Bush did get us into Iraq and that war will be his legacy above and beyond all else. Afghanistan has failed to rebuild post-Taliban and the Taliban is steadily reclaiming territory. So I suppose that playing the "What if the Confederacy won the Civil War?" game can be amusing in its own right, but it's pretty pointless for anything beyond exercising your imagination in the land of make-believe.

If we remove 9/11 entirely instead of pretending that only good things for Bush came from it, I doubt he would have won a second term without the "9/11 changed EVERYTHING" platform to fall back on. His reforms in health care and Social Security were stalled even within his own party, he'd have been stalled on immigration and I doubt he would have accomplished anything to put himself into the history books. His biggest contribution probably would have been No Child Left Behind which isn't anything I'd want as my personal legacy. Of course, I have no idea who the Democrats would have run against him anyway so, again, who knows?

That said, without his foreign policy fuck-ups, I doubt he'd be as reviled as he is either.

So War, you believe human losses are still acceptable to Americans as long as there is an issue or danger severe or immediate enough to warrant it? I question that statement.

In today's world I am not certain there will ever be enough clearcut evidence that would solidly unify our nation into accepting the loss of life on a WW1 or 2 level, short of an actual armed invasion of our borders. Even in those two wars there was a very significant anti-war/isolationist segment of the populace. That was the very reason we took so long to do more than pretend to be neutral and give England supplies prior to Pearl Harbor.

Our achilles heel has been exposed: Human cost. It was exposed in Vietnam and confirmed in Iraq. It appears the United States has approximately a 2-4 year level of patience before we expect the long bomb, the touchdown pass, and grand and glorious finale to any conflict, ala Panama and Grenada.

Regardless of its merits, the Iraq war has solidified one thing: Our dependance on long range missle strikes to keep our hands clean and losses low. In other words, our ability to project power has been utterly and completely emasculated.

Totem

Jo, I don't dispute Iraq will be Bush's legacy. However, I believe he is being given short shrift in nearly every other sphere of influence that a president is judged by.

Is taking Iraq out the discussion a form of mental ************* I suppose so, but in order to talk rationally about anything else regarding this administration it needs to be set aside so that a more objective view can be taken. Your response is indicative of that. You can't credit him with anything to this point because Iraq reaches over everything else.

On a different note, I still contend that eventually the Middle East's problems would have to be confronted sooner or later. And regardless how it would be dealt with it was going to be messy situation. It was a messy situation before we went in shooting.

Totem

But that's the point, War. Wages are keeping up inflation. Growth is being managed at an ideal 7%. If you had even an inkling of common sense you made money in the stock market last year. Most likely a lot of money.

Other than the Irsq war, things are good. C'mon, even if you're gay, because you can't get married isn't a reason to move to France as Steven Baldwin promised us when Bush was elected. And that's my whole point-- Iraq has become this fixation, a thing which has taken on a life of its own, but something that largely doesn't affect us in any way, unless you are a family member of someone who died or was injured. It's a perception problem more than an actual direct threat to our American Way of Life.

On the whole, this presidency has been very good for you regardless of your political affliation.

Totem

And how is being an employee of Daimler-Chrysler Bush's fault? Shouldn't you be blaming the bosses who thought that SUVs, trucks, and questionable marketing strategies were terrific ideas? Why hold Bush responsible for something like that? That's the irrationality I'm talking about. You might as well blame Bush for the 120 inches of snow upstate New York is suffering right now.

Unreal.

Totem