Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Euthanasia EssayFollow

#1 Feb 13 2007 at 8:20 AM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
One of the classes that I'm taking this semester is Philosophy 231: Contemporary Moral Issues. In this class, we cover several topics including abortion, animal rights, capital punishment, and euthanasia. One of the assignments for this class is to write an essay arguing one side of one of these issues, so I chose to argue on euthanasia. Unfortunately, one of the stipulations of the assignment is to develop a unique argument, and since almost every essay, article and thesis that I've read on euthanasia so far has been in limited support of it, I decided to argue against it.

I turned in the rough draft last week, and should be getting it back sometime this week, but I thought I'd let you contrary c'unts have the first crack at feedback. It also gives you a perfectly good chance to argue about something that isn't Iraq/Iran related.

I want you all to note that, although I argue against euthanasia in my essay, I in no way agree with my arguments. However, I thought it would be an experience to argue against my own beliefs, hence my position in the paper. If anybody is interested in the sources, let me know and I'll post those as well.

And now, without further delay, have at it!

Quote:
In the worlds of philosophy and medical ethics, there are a plethora of arguments pertaining to the practice of euthanasia, or physician-assisted suicide. Most of these arguments agree that euthanasia, both active and passive, is morally permissible under very extreme circumstances, and proceed to describe situations in which the merciful action clearly seems to be the death of the patient as opposed to further pain and suffering. Throughout all of these arguments, however, there are none that present a clear, universal set of guidelines for judging the severity of the patient’s conditions, the morally relative value of life, or the other circumstantial factors which may lead a patient to seek euthanasia. In this essay, I will attempt to look beyond these relativistic factors. I will argue that any person seeking euthanasia to relieve their own pain and suffering is not in a clear state of mind, and therefore unable to make a coherent, rational decision regarding their current state of life, and the conditions of their death. This essay will focus on the specific case of voluntary euthanasia, so all other cases will be ignored for the sake of argument.

Judith Boss defines voluntary euthanasia as a situation in which “a competent, rational person requests or gives informed consent about a particular action or withholding of treatment that will lead to his or her death” (Boss 181). Analyzing this statement, the most important aspect is that the person must be both competent and rational. This would undoubtedly exclude persons who are mentally retarded, hallucinating, under the effects of certain debilitating drugs, or otherwise incapable of competent, rational decision making. It would also exclude those that suffer from specific diseases that impair cognitive functions. The only ones left to fall under this definition are mentally healthy, emotionally mature individuals who can accurately assess their own situation; those that are in a clear state of mind.

In many of the arguments that lend justification to selected euthanasia, the central point is seems to be the pain and suffering experienced by the patient. According to these arguments, euthanasia is morally right if the level of pain is so great that it decreases the patient’s quality of life to the point that it is no longer desirable to live. According to Margaret Pabst Battin, “if the patient’s condition is so tragic that continuing life brings only pain, and there is no other way to relieve the pain than by death, then the more merciful act… is one that brings the pain—and the patient’s life—to an end now…” (Battin 201). While this statement seems to make sense, it does not take into account the wishes of the patient. Clearly, if this was done against the patient’s will, it is homicide.

If such a “mercy killing” is performed in accordance with a patient’s request, the important question then becomes the patient’s state of mind. Without a doubt, any person diagnosed with or experiencing a terminal condition will be rife with anxiety, depression, and stress, but more important is the presence of pain. Persons experiencing chronic pain do not have a clear state of mind, and therefore are not capable of rational decision making. In a study done by the International Association for the Study of Pain, “evidence indicates that chronic pain is associated with a specific cognitive deficit, which may impact everyday behavior especially in risky, emotionally laden, situations” (MIAS). Other research supports this claim and “…suggests that pain-related negative emotions and stress potentially impact cognitive functioning…” (Medline).

The decision to end one’s own life is clearly stressful and emotional, and this research leads one to believe that those experiencing chronic pain are not in a clear state of mind, and therefore incapable of competent, rational decision making. It follows from this that those seeking euthanasia to end their pain and suffering cannot fall under the category of voluntary. Instead, it might be more appropriate to label these cases of euthanasia as involuntary since the patient is being influenced by pain, stress, and depression.

The next point to address is that of patients who are not in pain that seek euthanasia. This is usually done by patients suffering from extreme depression and despair. Regardless of causes, this is nothing more than a veiled cry for help. Any person in a clear state of mind who is absent of pain and suffering is more than able to take their own life without the aid of physicians. Therefore, these people are not expressing a desire to die, but rather a deep state of depression and emotional distress, which is a treatable illness. “Rather than seeking to end their lives, the request to die is really an expression of… despair and, as such, is a cry for help” (Boss 192).

If the above arguments are accepted, it becomes very clear that there is no possible way to morally justify voluntary euthanasia. Any patient voluntarily requesting euthanasia is either not in a clear state of mind due to pain, and therefore incapable of competent, rational decision making, or is instead communicating a hidden cry for help.

One of the most obvious objections to this argument arises from previous legal instruction to end one’s life under certain conditions, whether by means of active or passive euthanasia. These are most commonly called DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) orders or advanced directives. The major flaw with these instructions is the time in which they are issued. If a person is to accurately weigh the moral values associated with their own death and quality of life, they must take into account, and fully understand, all factors involved. Unfortunately, there is no way to predict the quality of life experienced during terminal illness or chronic pain beforehand. The person may find it possible to effectively adjust to conditions that they did not foresee, or fully comprehend, before the onset of the illness. This creates a conundrum since previous judgments cannot be trusted under current conditions, nor can one trust the decision making ability of a person who is not in a clear state of mind.

The burden then falls upon the physician and the patient’s family to make the decision. However, as is the case with many other moral debates, the value of one’s life can only be accurately prioritized by the individual in question. Only they can truly know what they are experiencing, and judge whether their continued existence is more important than the permanent relief of their pain. However, as with the above case, these persons do not have a clear state of mind while experiencing pain, and therefore are not qualified to make such a decision.

Clearly, the only morally right thing to do in these situations is to make the patient as comfortable as possible. With the enormous advances in medical technology, as well as the growth of the hospice movement, pain can be effectively regimented without rendering the patient completely lifeless. With modern medicine, persons experiencing chronic pain can still live happy, fulfilling lives, even if they are limited in some way due to pain management. This all but eliminates the need to justify any form of euthanasia, which is something that practically everybody can agree on.
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#2 Feb 13 2007 at 8:34 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
I'm pretty much replying to say I'll read it from home. I doubt I could do you any justice trying to respond from the office.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#3 Feb 13 2007 at 8:36 AM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
Iophiel wrote:
Pharm.

/nod
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#4 Feb 13 2007 at 8:37 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
You used the word "Mentally Retarded" heh!

Developmentally challenged would be more PC.
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#5 Feb 13 2007 at 8:42 AM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
I'm not too terribly concerned with being politically correct. My professor is intelligent enough not to get hung up on "culturally insensitive" content.
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#6 Feb 13 2007 at 8:44 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
Demea wrote:
I'm not too terribly concerned with being politically correct. My professor is intelligent enough not to get hung up on "culturally insensitive" content.


Then why didn't you just call them 'tards?
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#7 Feb 13 2007 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
I was considering using the phrase "blathering imbeciles," but "mentally retarded" won on a coin flip.
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#8 Feb 13 2007 at 8:50 AM Rating: Good
YAY! Canaduhian
*****
10,293 posts
bodhisattva wrote:
Demea wrote:
I'm not too terribly concerned with being politically correct. My professor is intelligent enough not to get hung up on "culturally insensitive" content.


Then why didn't you just call them 'tards?


Smiley: lol
____________________________
What's bred in the bone will not out of the flesh.
#9 Feb 13 2007 at 9:12 AM Rating: Good
*****
10,359 posts
I'm taking the same class but we ditched Euthanasia for Pornography!

Sucker

Feedback, I shall write this as I go along. Before I get into it, what is your page limit by the way?

-First sentence is kinda broad and sounds a bit generalizing
-I don't personally like references to the paper itself within a paper but that's just stylistic
- "there are none that present a clear" > change are to is. There is none = There is not one.
- "I will argue that any person seeking euthanasia to relieve their own pain and suffering is not in a clear state of mind, and therefore unable to make a coherent, rational decision regarding their current state of life, and the conditions of their death. This essay will focus on the specific case of voluntary euthanasia, so all other cases will be ignored for the sake of argument."

Thesis is strong and arguable; I have no idea how original it is. I would take out the last sentence in that paragraph and place it into the body of the paper as a very short response to a very short counterclaim that you are only addressing vounentary euthanasia. For example, "It might be said that I miss the mark with regards to this argument. Detractors may argue that there are other cases in which euthanasia is considered, but the patient is not included in the decision. I am only focusing on, etc."

OR

You could make a seperate counterargument that all cases of non vaulentary euthanasia are simply murder, and thus not only beyond the scope of the paper, but foolish to consider in the first place.

-I would probably develop my thesis somewhat before developing a counterclaim as you do in paragraph three. Paragraph two could probably be split into two different parts, the first being an explication of Judith Boss' position, definition of claim, look into the reasoning behind classifying the mentally fit as candidates, etc; and the second paragraph could be why you think that these are good arguments. There need be no real depth, but at least an outline of your position would be good there.

- "Persons experiencing chronic pain do not have a clear state of mind, and therefore are not capable of rational decision making."

Excelent claim. You have set up a very, very good constructive dellima with this, both cases of which lead to the immorality of euthanasia. That is; Either a person is free from pain and thus does not want to kill themselves, or a person is in extreme pain and cannot be trusted to want to kill themselves.

-"This is usually done by patients suffering from extreme depression and despair. Regardless of causes, this is nothing more than a veiled cry for help. Any person in a clear state of mind who is absent of pain and suffering is more than able to take their own life without the aid of physicians."

This is fairly weak and generalizing. Your conclusion (vield cry for help) seems to rest solely upon the premise that a person in clear state of mind is able to take his/her own life. It does not follow that the lack of an action (refusal to kill one's self) indicates a lack of want. It may very well indicate, however, the refusal for action indicates a lack of intention, or just the presence of simple cowardance and fear. One might also argue that going to a physician is using a tool to take one's own life with minimal pain (seriously, where is the average guy going to find a lethal dose of morphine?) and thus the prefered method.

“Rather than seeking to end their lives, the request to die is really an expression of… despair and, as such, is a cry for help” (Boss 192).

Also move this quote to earlier in the paragraph. End with your own words.

-"Any patient voluntarily requesting euthanasia is either not in a clear state of mind due to pain, and therefore incapable of competent, rational decision making, or is instead communicating a hidden cry for help."

Are there no other cases in which a person might wish to seek euthanasia? I have myself wondered in idle curiosity the best reason to kill one's self would be simply to see what would happen.

-"This creates a conundrum since previous judgments cannot be trusted under current conditions, nor can one trust the decision making ability of a person who is not in a clear state of mind."

Good point. If you have room develop it further

-"With modern medicine, persons experiencing chronic pain can still live happy, fulfilling lives, even if they are limited in some way due to pain management."

I'm not really convinced. An example of a 92 year old cancer patient who was able to run a marathon again (or something like it) would do wonders for this.

Overall - Good points, and good argumentative structure. You do well to rely upon contructive delimma and exploit several weaknesses in the counterexamples. I would say that giving more examples in respect (and quotes, research, etc) to your own position would be a very good thing, and to flesh out the relevant points with some more reinforcement. Obviously since this is just a rough draft as you said I realize that you probably already have, or already realize this.

Also, the entire argument rests upon the premise that a person in extreme pain can not make an informed decision though, and this might have troublesome implications, especially given how braod the defintion of "pain" can be. I would look to see if there are any other situations (unrelated to euthanasia) that we rely upon or even require that people in extreme pain make decisions. Looking at the implications of your conclusion in regards to larger body of theory would perhaps be a good track to extend the paper(if you do in fact have a longer page limit), or perhaps to show that the thesis can be logically coherent with the rest of our society.

Edited, Feb 13th 2007 5:56pm by Pensive
#10 Feb 13 2007 at 9:16 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Demea wrote:
Iophiel wrote:
Pharm.
/nod
You just cost yourself an essay critique! Smiley: mad
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#11 Feb 13 2007 at 9:18 AM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Demea wrote:
Iophiel wrote:
Pharm.
/nod
You just cost yourself an essay critique! Smiley: mad

But it got me two posts. Smiley: tongue
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#12 Feb 13 2007 at 9:48 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
morally permissible


I can't read beyond this phrase. It's too philosophically loaded. Write me an essay on what "moral permissibility" is. Then analyze the statement, "Give me liberty or give yourself death!" as it pertains to arguments on euthanasia. 5 pages double spaced.

Here's a start for you. It's the only ancient Greek philosophical school to be revived after 2,000 years.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus

Quote:
We have written this letter to you on a happy day to us, which is also the last day of our life. For strangury has attacked me, and also a dysentery, so violent that nothing can be added to the violence of my sufferings. But the cheerfulness of my mind, which arises from their collection of all my philosophical contemplation, counterbalances all these afflictions. And I beg you to take care of the children of Metrodorus, in a manner worth of the devotion shown by the youth to me, and to philosophy.


But out of pity,

Demea wrote:
If such a “mercy killing” is performed in accordance with a patient’s request, the important question then becomes the patient’s state of mind. Without a doubt, any person diagnosed with or experiencing a terminal condition will be rife with anxiety, depression, and stress, but more important is the presence of pain. Persons experiencing chronic pain do not have a clear state of mind, and therefore are not capable of rational decision making.


Demea wrote:
Without a doubt


Ayso, so you're omniscient?

As of right now, you are so far off on the wrong track you may as well be lost in Thailand, unable to speak the local dialectical language. It's laughable you think you can determine the status of states of mind of others.

And then drop those philsophy classes and enroll in some advanced philosophy econ classes (well simple philosophy really, but advanced compared to the crap you're being fed). All those philosophy professors are still stuck 2,500 years in the past unable to answer simple questions like how can a diamond be worth more than a glass of water.

Gah, now I read some more of your essay, and sorry to say, it's ****. And who are these people you are referencing? ***** ain't no country I ever heard of.

#13 Feb 13 2007 at 9:49 AM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
*****
14,659 posts
Smiley: thumbsdown
____________________________
Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#14 Feb 13 2007 at 9:52 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
MonxDoT wrote:
Quote:
morally permissible


I can't read beyond this phrase.


HOLY SH'IT!

Monx can read?
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#15 Feb 13 2007 at 9:53 AM Rating: Good
MonxDoT wrote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epicurus
FAIL! That's not a valid cite.
#16 Feb 13 2007 at 10:01 AM Rating: Default
Elderon wrote:
FAIL! That's not a valid cite.


FAIL! That's not a valid establishment of validity.
#17 Feb 13 2007 at 10:05 AM Rating: Good
MonxDoT wrote:
Elderon wrote:
FAIL! That's not a valid cite.


FAIL! That's not a valid establishment of validity.
Cite. I win.
#18 Feb 13 2007 at 10:37 AM Rating: Default
Elderon wrote:
Cite. I win.


What did you win? I doubt news.yahoo.com articles qualifies under the professor's standards as well. Oh shiznit, he may now be permanently stranded in an unrecoverable aberrant time loop as he attempts to establish a self cite of himself as valid. See if you can find a 9th place participation ribbon for sale on ebay to celebrate. :P

FAIL! That's not a valid establishment of validity. ---> for the Middlebury History Professor too.
#19 Feb 13 2007 at 10:38 AM Rating: Good
MonxDoT wrote:
Blah blah blah Smiley: cry
Yep.
#20 Feb 13 2007 at 10:39 AM Rating: Default
Elderon wrote:
Yep.


Nope.
#21 Feb 13 2007 at 11:02 AM Rating: Decent
***
2,501 posts
I think your arguments are sound, but as another poster mentioned, some of the wording could be tweaked to make it sound, and I also think that you should maximize your pages to better flesh out your arguments, so as to leave little room for counter arguments.

In short, you win 85% of the time, but with more words, you could win 95% of the time.


We now return you to your regularly scheduled broadcast of "Monx vs. Eldy: The War of Words".

Edited, Feb 13th 2007 2:02pm by Metastophicleas
#22 Feb 13 2007 at 12:49 PM Rating: Excellent
**
771 posts
Hi Asylum,

I read here when I'm bored at work - don't post cause that's no fun. I do however do philosophy (majored in it and will be starting on my PhD in it this fall) so I might as well do something useful and reply (hopefully I've pre-empted the who the f' are you?)

First point that struck me is you talk about moral relativity at the beginning, then sort of assume it during the rest of the essay. Since the debate between moral relativity and what I'll call objective morality (that is any morality where there is some objective standard to determine morality of any given act without having to rely on specific information to distinguish the morality of two acts of the same kind) its a big assumption and you may want to include a sentence or two on why you feel that euthinasia is a morally relative subject (my take is you feel that it is morally relative to the experiences and desires of the patient, contengent on their being rational and "competent").

On your Boss quote that you somewhat address in the objection to prior orders (DNR or whatever) there's a stronger counterargument. A person need not have to directly experience the pain, dementia, or physical loss to be able to fully understand the implications without ever having experienced the sensations and mental states associated with whatever it is that ails them. Extreme example, if I offered you immortality on the condition that you be chained to a rock and your liver eaten by ravens and regrown daily or to live your normal life which includes necessarily death, it is reasonable for you to say: while I've never experienced the sensation of having my liver eaten I am fully aware that I'd rather live a productive and interesting life filled of days in which my liver isn't eaten and die as a normal person than to be immortal. In a less extreme example you could, through observation of a relative, say going through the late stages of Alzheimer's disease may clearly observe the suffering of that person and make an informed decision about their desire to live should they ever reach that state. What would need to be present is very clear and precise instructions on which situations the person is specifically talking about - otherwise there is a question of accurate interpretation that gets back into the question of are you really acting with the patient's consent.

Your paragraphs about the patients state of mind in situations of physical stress and its resultant mental stress are fine. There are a couple questions about philosophy of mind that someone in that field might bring but are tangential to your main argument so not hugely important. What you do want to do is define rational, as the word has several different technical meanings in different areas of philosophy. I read you using it in the legalistic way, which is that someone be legally rational (being of sound mind and body) and not a reasoning entity or any of the other definitions.

The weakest part of your essay is the point where you say "and this research leads one to believe that those experiencing chronic pain are not in a clear state of mind". This comes with the problem of legalistic rationality, namely that humans are quite irrational a great deal of the time - and in other situations we attribute a "clear state of mind" as an attribute of a person who is acting irrationally. Example: a sports fan shouting at the television. There is no rational reason to expect that telling the TV what the players on the TV should do will have the least bit of effect on the outcome of the sporting contest, but the sports fan might do it anyway because it lets out some emotional steam (important point is that emotions are decidedly not rational but can easily play a role in relative ethics). I'd recommend that what the paper most needs is more than "leads one to believe" but some actual argumentation on that point. It will be difficult because all the objector need do is provide one example while you have to show it to be true in every example, else they can say well you have to show that for this person they are not of clear mind.

The other major objection you don't deal with are those of the society versus individual needs. A clear example of this is found in Soylent Green, but the concept is more globally, are there cases where the needs of the society and the welfare of the society as a whole places a moral obligation on that society to seek volunteers for euthinasia (this is opposed to forcing euthanasia, such as not allowing certain genetic defects to exist, see Stand on Zanzibar, Gattaca). The argument there is, the society cannot support all of its members and so some members must voluntarilly end their lives or all the members of society will die (and this is a utilitarian argument and subject to normal utilitarian objections is essintailly if trying for all leads to none then pick some cause some is better than none).

In the last paragraph the bit about people in chronic pain leading happy fulfilling lives is something you'll have to reconicile with being mentaly stable and rational (if they're happy and fulfilled how are they so depressed as to not be able to decide they want to die, and if they're happy and fulfilled why would they want to die). I'd remove much of the last paragraph and stay within the framework of your argument cause most of those claims are unsupported, and in some cases directly contradict your argument.
#23 Feb 13 2007 at 2:44 PM Rating: Good
Imaginary Friend
*****
16,112 posts
this **** is too long. rate downs for you all
____________________________
With the receiver in my hand..
#24 Feb 13 2007 at 3:33 PM Rating: Decent
*****
19,369 posts
Kelvyquayo the Irrelevant wrote:
this sh*t is too long. rate downs for you all


/nod

Except I'm too lazy to rate too.
#25 Feb 13 2007 at 5:18 PM Rating: Default
Nice post Thalthas. You should post more.

Thalthas wrote:
(my take is you feel that it is morally relative to the experiences and desires of the patient, contengent on their being rational and "competent").


Assuming others are not rational or not "competent" is interesting or persuasive? Maybe in 500 B.C.

Thalthas wrote:
A person need not have to directly experience the pain, dementia, or physical loss to be able to fully understand the implications without ever having experienced the sensations and mental states associated with whatever it is that ails them.


That sounds true to me. For instance empathy, crying or laughing in a movie theater. But if one person cries to a scene in a movie and another does not, that says nothing about rationality/irrationality. I myself have *never* heard of any specific irrational action by any specific person unless you were to somehow assume the action is coming from a non person (i.e. of diminished capacity or faculty) which then would by definition be non action, but categorized more somewhere in the instinct ballpark. Every action is chosen, which qualifies it as action.

There is no such thing as irrational hatred or love. It subjectively varies for every individual, is witnessed only by actions which show ranked preference for one thing over another.

Thalthas wrote:
Your paragraphs about the patients state of mind in situations of physical stress and its resultant mental stress are fine.


Thalthas wrote:
The weakest part of your essay is the point where you say "and this research leads one to believe that those experiencing chronic pain are not in a clear state of mind".


Again, how is this interesting or persuasive? Every action results because of a state of physical stress, is caused by a desire to go to a state of lesser unhappiness. If it wasn't, nobody would ever act in the first place.

You find a Patience on the Omega Boss. You throw the Patience away.

Thalthas wrote:
This comes with the problem of legalistic rationality, namely that humans are quite irrational a great deal of the time - and in other situations we attribute a "clear state of mind" as an attribute of a person who is acting irrationally. Example: a sports fan shouting at the television. There is no rational reason to expect that telling the TV what the players on the TV should do will have the least bit of effect on the outcome of the sporting contest, but the sports fan might do it anyway because it lets out some emotional steam (important point is that emotions are decidedly not rational but can easily play a role in relative ethics).


Hogwash. A sports fan shouting at the television is not irrational. A sports fan shouting at the gladiators is not irrational. A tribe dancing to cause rain is not irrational. Praying to God is not irrational. Following superstitions for good luck is not irrational. It's just as rational as any other action because it makes the actor feel better. Sure, some actions may be more efficient than others. But man is not omniscient, man can make mistakes. But that man can make mistakes says nothing of rationality/irrationality.

Thalthas wrote:
The other major objection you don't deal with are those of the society versus individual needs. A clear example of this is found in Soylent Green, but the concept is more globally, are there cases where the needs of the society and the welfare of the society as a whole places a moral obligation on that society to seek volunteers for euthinasia (this is opposed to forcing euthanasia, such as not allowing certain genetic defects to exist, see Stand on Zanzibar, Gattaca).


Total hogwash again. Societies don't act, societies don't have needs, societies don't have consciousness nor cognition. There are no "invisible machines" to replace your rejection of God. :P Only individuals possess those attributes. Society is just an amalgamation of acting individuals. That's why philosopher's like Rousseau and Rawls are morons (true fool-osophers), blithering superstitious idiots proving nothing, but influencing plenty with blather.

Thalthas wrote:
The argument there is, the society cannot support all of its members and so some members must voluntarilly end their lives or all the members of society will die (and this is a utilitarian argument and subject to normal utilitarian objections is essintailly if trying for all leads to none then pick some cause some is better than none).


Silly philosophers. It's no wonder economics was the scientific branch to show why societies exist. You're talking about society needing to cause death of members to exist, when society exists because it enhances the life of its members. We're at 6 billion people now because of the division of labor and trade.

All of you are Beginner intellectual Novice, whether you even have a PhD in philosophy, until you can answer how a diamond can be worth more than a glass of water. (And no, I'm not giving you the answer. We'll perhaps if you sent me 100k by PayPal, or whatever the 4 year going rate payment is at a top school like Harvard now.) But I'll give you a big hint. It wasn't answered formaly until the 1860s. Over 2k years since the Greeks, and philosophers still haven't answered that question. And that's why why they're still making monstrous errors.

P.S. I'm the famous MonxDoT {Nice to meet you!} ^^
#26 Feb 13 2007 at 6:19 PM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
******
29,919 posts
Hey, if kids want to go tour china and Japan, that's their own buisiness. As long as they watch themselves and don't cause an international incident, I really don't care one way or the other about youth in asia. Does that make me a bad person?
____________________________
Arch Duke Kaolian Drachensborn, lvl 95 Ranger, Unrest Server
Tech support forum | FAQ (Support) | Mobile Zam: http://m.zam.com (Premium only)
Forum Rules
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 240 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (240)