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#102 Jan 25 2007 at 11:09 AM Rating: Excellent
Nexa
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MonxDoT wrote:

If it was indeed wrong, then ethanol would sell for a profit. Explainerz it then: How can you get 38% more of something, of absolutely anything, by performing input actions and that results in an output LOSS? Wellllll, we're waiting ....


I've started picturing you as a hysterical garden gnome. I just thought you'd like to know.

Nexa
____________________________
“It has always been the prerogative of children and half-wits to point out that the emperor has no clothes. But a half-wit remains a half-wit, and the emperor remains an emperor.”
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#103 Jan 25 2007 at 11:13 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
I've started picturing you as a hysterical garden gnome. I just thought you'd like to know.


Chris Rock must be doing my voice then like in that US mail commercial where the package gets picked up on the porch, know the one I mean?
#104 Jan 25 2007 at 11:16 AM Rating: Excellent
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MonxDoT wrote:
If it was indeed wrong, then ethanol would sell for a profit.
It does.

To answer your next question, it's already been answered. Several times, in fact.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#105 Jan 25 2007 at 11:17 AM Rating: Good
Nexa wrote:
I've started picturing you as a hysterical garden gnome. I just thought you'd like to know.
That's why people bust up gnomes.
#106 Jan 25 2007 at 11:24 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
MonxDoT wrote:
If it was indeed wrong, then ethanol would sell for a profit.

It does.


Oh it does now? Then subsidies are a total waste and unnecessary. What are you going to argue for next, subsidies for Microsoft Vista?
#107 Jan 25 2007 at 11:26 AM Rating: Default
Poems for Gnomes!

http://www.fairiesworld.com/poems/2006/06/13/gnome-at-home/

Quote:
Gnome at Home - Myrea Pettit©2006

I knew a Gnome

He lived in my home

He loved my art

And was never alone.
#108 Jan 25 2007 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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MonxDoT wrote:
Then subsidies are a total waste and unnecessary.
So be it if that's your opinion. It's neither here nor there towards the net gain in energy.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#109 Jan 25 2007 at 1:44 PM Rating: Default
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/section4group6/introduction

Quote:
It is important to note that the NEB of Ethanol or any other fuel that is burned cannot be positive (Patzek 2006). The Second Law Of Thermodynamics implies that any energy conversion, solid to liquid to gas for ethanol, results in a negative net energy balance.[2] The same applies for gasoline (liquid to gas).


But then this same paper concludes:

Quote:
While there is a lot more “work” when converting ethanol into energy relative to fossil fuels, there is still a positive Net Energy Balance (Energy Output – Energy Inputted + Energy Credits).


www.mathproinc.com/pdf/2.1.6_Ethanol_NEV_Comparison.pdf

Quote:
The net energy value (NEV) of ethanol is the difference between the energy content of ethanol and the energy used in producing and distributing it.
Despite the advent of a national ethanol mandate, ethanol’s “real” NEV remains a controversial and, from an analytical standpoint, unresolved issue. Ethanol proponents, most notably the U.S. Department of Agriculture, assert that corn ethanol has a positive NEV (i.e., ethanol provides more energy than is used to produce it). Others, most notably Professors David Pimentel and Tad Patzek, assert that corn ethanol has a negative NEV (i.e., ethanol provides less energy than is used to produce it).


http://www.ethanol-gec.org/netenergy/net-energy-yield.htm

Quote:
these benefits to the American public from ethanol are all dependent on the simple fact that a typical gallon of ethanol produced in America today contains more energy than the fossil fuel inputs required to produce it. Said differently, all of the benefits are dependent on the fact that ethanol has a positive “net energy yield.” This positive net energy yield is made possible by renewable energy — the energy of the sun that is captured by corn or other plants and converted into ethanol in an ethanol facility. The solar energy that is captured by the plant and then converted to ethanol is greater than the amount of fossil fuel inputs required to achieve that conversion. In attempts to discredit ethanol, however, ethanol opponents frequently make unsubstantiated attacks on the net energy yield of ethanol.


http://www.ethanol-gec.org/netenergy/neypimentel.pdf

Quote:
The forgoing analysis, for which all major energy
inputs required in ethanol production were assessed,
confirms that ethanol production produces a
29% negative energy balance. Ethanol is not a net
additional energy source, is an uneconomical fuel,
and its overall production system causes serious environmental
degradation.


http://gristmill.grist.org/story/2007/1/14/133338/207

Quote:
The common response to Pimentel's heresy is summarized over on the greenie site Journey to Forever: Pimentel is a crackpot who gets his results by relying on out-of-date input numbers.

Interestingly, Pimentel's work got an endorsement from an unexpected source: the recent MIT study, which as Steenblik's post shows has to perform rather tortured gymnastics to find value in corn-based ethanol.

The MIT press release summarizes researcher Tiffany Groode's research thusly:

Based on her "most likely" outcomes, she concluded that traveling a kilometer using ethanol does indeed consume more energy than traveling the same distance using gasoline.

Nor does Groode parrot the Pimentel-relies-on-ancient-data line. Here's how the the press release quotes her:

The results show that everybody [including Pimentel, mentioned by name] is basically correct ... The energy balance is so close that the outcome depends on exactly how you define the problem. [my emphasis]

This is precisely what Pimentel has long argued: that most ethanol energy-balance studies omit key factors like the energy required to manufacture farm equipment.

...

So if Pimentel is essentially right about corn-based ethanol's negative energy balance, how does Groode wind up tepidly supporting it?

She says what's known as the "co-product credit" -- the energy-saving value of distillers grains, an ethanol by product that can be fed to livestock -- pushes ethanol's energy balance into positive territory.

Incidentally, Pimentel told me he does account for distillers grains, but finds that other researchers tend to overestimate the energy they save.

Again, I'm not competent to comment on this point, but I can say this: The MIT study is telling us that the entire case for corn-ethanol as a net saver of fossil fuel rests on a product -- distillers grains -- whose only market is industrial meat producers.

That group operates under a kind of bizarro triple bottom line: it profits by generating social, environmental and animal-welfare horror.


And last but not least the MIT report:

http://web.mit.edu/newsoffice/2007/ethanol.html

Quote:
A caution with allocating co-product credits is that it assumes, regardless of the allocation method, that the co-product is displacing a good that is already in the market place and therefore displacing the amount of fossil fuel consumed and GHG emissions released during its production. This is a bold assumption, as it is often not known what effect a new replacement product may have on the market it enters. It may replace current production or it may over saturate the market and drive prices down and thus not displace fossil fuel consumption or greenhouse gas emissions.


Someone once spoke of the politicization of science? The plot thickens.
#110 Jan 25 2007 at 3:46 PM Rating: Decent
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763 posts
MonxDot wrote:
http://sitemaker.umich.edu/section4gr...ntroduction
Quote:
It is important to note that the NEB of Ethanol or any other fuel that is burned cannot be positive (Patzek 2006). The Second Law Of Thermodynamics implies that any energy conversion, solid to liquid to gas for ethanol, results in a negative net energy balance.[2] The same applies for gasoline (liquid to gas).

But then this same paper concludes:
Quote:
While there is a lot more work when converting ethanol into energy relative to fossil fuels, there is still a positive Net Energy Balance (Energy Output Energy Inputted + Energy Credits).

www.mathproinc.com/pdf/2.1.6_Ethanol_NEV_Comparison.pdf

Please tell me you are joking. The first quote obviously talks about the NEB figure when you take the total energy inputs while the second quote obviously talks about what you get only figuring the energy inputs humans have to provide.

The true total energy inputs to a gallon of ethanol are obviously greater than the total energy outputs because otherwise the universe would explode. The inputs humans have to provide to get a gallon of ethanol can still be less than the total outputs, because humans don't have to supply the sun. That's how people are coming up with positive NEBs without violating the 2nd law.

The large range of NEBs people are coming up with for ethanol are obviously due to assuming a different set of human supplied inputs. Are we growing corn in the desert and need to pump in tons of water? Energy input assumption goes up. Are we assuming perfect weather all the time? Energy input assumption goes down.

Obviously.

Maybe the education system is in worse shape than even I thought.

Granted, the fact that the NEB is so close to even that it is debatable isn't a good sign, but I'm willing to see the government throw a few billion dollars at it for a while to see if it gets significantly more efficient.
#111 Jan 25 2007 at 3:49 PM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
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14,659 posts
Jophiel wrote:
It's neither here nor there towards the net gain in energy.

Alright. Enough. This has been driving me nuts.

I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost." It is simply transfered from one state to another.

Smiley: motz
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Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#112 Jan 25 2007 at 3:52 PM Rating: Decent
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8,619 posts
Quote:
Alright. Enough. This has been driving me nuts.

I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost." It is simply transfered from one state to another. Smiley: motz
/hug.
#113 Jan 25 2007 at 4:22 PM Rating: Decent
Quote:
I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost." It is simply transfered from one state to another.


Basic science ftw!
#114 Jan 25 2007 at 4:25 PM Rating: Excellent
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Demea wrote:
I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost."
It can be duped though, right?
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#115 Jan 25 2007 at 4:33 PM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
Demea wrote:
I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost."
It can be duped though, right?
Yes, but you have to disconnect from the srver at just the right time while trying to transfer it.
#116 Jan 25 2007 at 4:34 PM Rating: Excellent
Official Shrubbery Waterer
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14,659 posts
Jophiel wrote:
Demea wrote:
I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost."
It can be duped though, right?

I hate you, Inlee. Smiley: mad
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Jophiel wrote:
I managed to be both retarded and entertaining.

#117 Jan 25 2007 at 4:57 PM Rating: Default
I'm just quoting examples of politicization in that post. Perhaps a simpler example is in order. There be black gold yon under in der Siberian ice. It costs X to dig and drill it out. Absolutely no different than there be yellow gold yon over in der fields of maze under skies of blue. It costs X to get it out. In either case do you proceed to get it out if the return on getting out the gold is less than the cost of getting it out? WTF does "cost" mean? Does it mean "money"? Does it mean "energy"? Take a /poke of the stick or drill bit or whatever at it.

Quote:
The true total energy inputs to a gallon of ethanol are obviously greater than the total energy outputs because otherwise the universe would explode.


Quote:
The inputs humans have to provide to get a gallon of ethanol can still be less than the total outputs, because humans don't have to supply the sun.


Nor do humans have to supply the millions of years of geological processes that produce oil. But if you claim more energy goes out then goes in, NO MATTER WHEN WHERE OR HOW, it must necessarily by definition be profitable, right? More energy cannnot be less than less energy, correct? That would be absurd. It would always and everywhere be a productive use of energy, no matter the source, right?

Quote:
Are we growing corn in the desert and need to pump in tons of water?


Good question! Obviously there are diminishing marginal returns from the most arrable land to the least arrable land. How should we decide which portion of arable land to devote to the production and farming of corn? How should we decide which portion of the harvest of corn we should devote to food, to ethanol, to cattle feedstock, to soda sizzurp, to other uses?



Quote:
I know what you two are trying to say, but please say it in another way because energy cannot be "gained" or "lost." It is simply transfered from one state to another.


2 BTU enter. 1 BTU leave.

Better? There's more than one state right?


Quote:
Basic science ftw!


We need Chinese science farmers for that. Somebody buy some science for the sake of the State of the Union.

Edited, Jan 25th 2007 8:00pm by MonxDoT
#118 Jan 25 2007 at 9:55 PM Rating: Good
Tracer Bullet
*****
12,636 posts
MonxDoT wrote:
But if you claim more energy goes out then goes in, NO MATTER WHEN WHERE OR HOW, it must necessarily by definition be profitable, right?

Not all forms of "equal" energy input in industrial processes cost the same amount of money, if you can't understand that then there is no hope.


#119 Jan 26 2007 at 4:26 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
Not all forms of "equal" energy input in industrial processes cost the same amount of money


Why? In a free market wouldn't that provide speculators and entrepreneurs with arbitrage free profit opportunity by buying the relatively cheaper equal energy input and selling the relatively more expensive equal energy input until their prices became equal? Wouldn't those businesses that used the cheaper equal energy input out compete those businesses that used the more expensive equal energy input? How can a diamond be worth more than a glass of water?

Hehe, not only does economcs overtake philosophy, sociology, political science et al, but it takes over biology, physics, and chemistry. Sweet!
#120 Jan 26 2007 at 5:03 AM Rating: Good
Imaginary Friend
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16,112 posts
careful not to overfeed the troll. it might explode. Smiley: oyvey
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With the receiver in my hand..
#121 Jan 26 2007 at 6:19 AM Rating: Default
Ooooh, reminded me of Catch Me If You Can quote:

Quote:
Carl Hanratty: These people have been embarrassed, Monx. They're angry. You rob their philosophical fantasy, you steal their hope, you live in their forum.


And another for the road:

Quote:
Carl Hanratty: Well, would you like to hear me tell a joke?
Earl Amdursky: Yeah. Yeah, we'd love to hear a joke from you.
Carl Hanratty: Knock knock.
Earl Amdursky: Who's there?
Carl Hanratty: Go fuck yourselves
#122 Jan 26 2007 at 6:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't follow.

So far, you've pretty much shown yourself to be the one incapable of following along. You'll note how you're the only one trying to hold onto your opinion. Now, it might just be that you're some genius maverick thinker who's broken out against all odds and had a flash of insight no one else shares...

...but it's infinitely more likely that you're just wrong and everyone else understands what you're missing.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#123 Jan 26 2007 at 7:00 AM Rating: Default
Quote:
Now, it might just be that you're some genius maverick thinker who's broken out against all odds and had a flash of insight no one else shares...


Maverick! Oooh, I like that. That's right, Iceman, I am, dangerous. :P

Quote:
...but it's infinitely more likely that you're just wrong and everyone else understands what you're missing.


Always gotta be a catch with ya, huh? There's degrees of understanding, there's more efficient and less efficient explanations, better and less better. Help me upgrade to MonxSchool v. 2.0 ^^
#124 Jan 26 2007 at 7:06 AM Rating: Excellent
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MonxDoT wrote:
There's degrees of understanding
That's true.

1>-- Total Understanding
2>-- Near-Complete Understanding
3>-- Average Understanding
4>-- Partial Understanding
5>-- Minimal Understanding
6>-- Mulch Level Understanding
7>-- MonxDot Level Understanding

Mulch you see, with its capacity to be distilled into ethanol, has a better innate understanding of the topic than you Smiley: grin
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#125 Jan 26 2007 at 7:14 AM Rating: Good
Jophiel wrote:
MonxDoT wrote:
There's degrees of understanding
That's true.

1>-- Total Understanding
2>-- Near-Complete Understanding
3>-- Average Understanding
4>-- Partial Understanding
5>-- Minimal Understanding
6>-- Mulch Level Understanding
7>-- MonxDot Level Understanding

Mulch you see, with its capacity to be distilled into ethanol, has a better innate understanding of the topic than you Smiley: grin
I thought the distillation of mulch created methanol (known as wood alcohol). Smiley: confused
#126 Jan 26 2007 at 7:23 AM Rating: Excellent
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Smiley: lol

OMGWTFPWNT by SCIENCE!
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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