Tricky one. . . (Updated)Follow

Just get a female judge and jury.

Mazra, that's a lot of generalities.

Now, i don't know what the situation is in Denmark. But you seem to be complaining about three thing:

1) They came uninvited
2) They commit crimes
3) They want to practice their religions and customs.



1) Immigration is crucial in Europe. Our rate of babies born is under 2 in most European countries, which means that without immigration, the population would be going down, which would pose some huge problems for pensions. Not only that, it would hurt the economy in general as well. Don't know if you've noticed, but immigrants tend to do the sh*tty jobs that local don't want. Immigrants in Europe are vital to the economy. We'd sink without them.

Second, in France, many of the first-generation of immigrants were actually told to come to France to do the sh*tty jobs that Frenchies didn't want to do. Dunno if it's the same in Denmark, but we certainly can't use the "They came over here" excuse, since we asked them to come.

2) I assume you know that not all crimes are reported in the media. I also assume that you know that crimes by immigrants, especially in the context of relations between the West and the Mulsim world today, sell a lot more than crimes by locals. So remember that, the crimes you hear about are *selected* amongst many crimes.

Second, those crimes are a tiny percentage of the behaviour of immigrants. In other words, you only hear about the bad things. Never the good ones.

Third, I doubt that race has much of an impact on one's capacity for crime. It's not innate, it's learned. Culture, as opposed nature.

3) Well that's the whole point. We're not theological states, like Iran. So we don't do what they do. It's not because Western women have to cover their head when they go there that we should force immigrant women to wear a crucifix. That's not the way it works, thankfully. We are open, liberal, tolerant societies, and thank God for that. So we allow them to practice their religion. Big deal. How does it affect you personally?

Look, I'm not saying all is rosy. When a large percentage of people from a different culture come to a new country, there will always be an adaptation period. Maybe Denmark is going through it now.

But I do think you have a very ethnocentric view of the problem. They burned your flag because you insulted their prophet. I'm not saying they were right, but it's not all one way either.

You say you don't discriminate, but your whole diatribe against them didn't seem that tolerant to me.

And you know what, you can do something about it. There are political parties all over Europe that suggest sending them home. You can just vote for them.

Maybe Denmark has it particularly bad, I don't know. But in France, people who say what you wrote vote National Front.



Why does it bother you what they wear to school? And if local people in DK feel the same way as you do towards immigrants, do you really think they don't feel it? Do you really think it's baseless when they say people discriminate against them, when local have that attitude towards them?



Edited, Nov 9th 2006 at 8:28am PST by RedPhoenixxxxxx

True, but in that case, this woman's business would shrivel up quick. I see it as a choice she has made regarding her lifestlye that is being given more importance than it's due. If the judge is focusing so much on the veil, then he needs to be removed, as he obviously has issues that are weighing on his ability to be impartial.

Maybe she's doing them all a favor by wearing the veil.

Apparently, they're still confusing. I heart you!

and how could we forget?


Edited, Nov 9th 2006 at 12:23pm PST by Kelvyquayo

Warning: Wall of text incoming.



Ya, I know. Got carried away.

1. Denmark is a small isolated country. We don't seek immigrants, in fact, we would like to close the borders if our hippie Swedish neighbors didn't call us racists for it. Denmark is a very nationalistic country and we like to mind our own business. The majority of immigrants we have are refugees, meaning they're only here until things die down in their own country. These guys are usually poorly integrated because they never plan on staying. But since our social help is so much better than that of whatever country they come from, they tend to stay and spend their holidays in their own country.

We don't really have "sh*tty" jobs per se. There are less lucrative jobs, but these are often taken by the youth or people in a forced work program (people who can't get jobs).

2. I watch the news almost every evening and I read the newspapers every morning. I know that a lot of the trouble is caused by native Danish people as well, but about 50% of the assault, murder and rape stories you hear about are committed by immigrants. Usually the second generation. "Second generation immigrant" has more or less become a term for trouble-makers over here.

Denmark is a tiny country without much action. The front story in the papers last week was the police shooting a drunkard who waved a knife at them. That's the third person this year the police kills. We don't get much action, as I said. And I know that not all immigrants are like that. I know quite a few myself, but last year when I was still in high school, I got a day off and decided to spend it shopping. On my way through town I ran into several other kids who apparently also had the day off (ya right). 95% of those kids were, presumably, second generation immigrants. Coincidence? Perhaps, perhaps not.

And I do agree that criminal behaviour is learned. Or rather, it's the indirect cause of NOT learning the right moral values. These people come from countries where stoning is considered a nice way to spend some quality time with your family. Naturally, the first generation immigrants hit a brick wall when they came to our country and so it's only natural that their children have issues figuring out what's right and what's wrong. If you know what I mean?

3. It affects me personally when their religion includes blowing up a mall full of innocent people because their god is a horny sumbitch with a virgin fetish.

And it's not an adaption period. These people don't just adapt, quite contrary, they tend to convert things to their liking. We already passed several acts giving them more influence on how we are supposed to do things. They receive special meals in school because they don't eat the same as we do, special classes because they can't change clothes near us. There was some drama a few months ago because a school with a large Muslim percentage was forced to remove pork from the menu because the Muslims demanded it. It wasn't enough that they allowed Muslims to NOT eat it, they had to REMOVE it completely!

They burned MY flag because SOMEONE insulted their prophet, although his picture has been posted and made fun of in several books throughout history. They threaten to kill ME because SOMEONE said it was an insult. And to make matters worse, the thing blew up when one of the Muslim religious leaders (imam) here in Denmark travelled "home" during his holiday to spread the news amongst his countrymen. He cursed us out and suggested holy war as proper rebuttal. Then when things heated up, he ordered the Danish government to pull him out on the taxpayers' bill.

I do vote for those parties. Lots of people do. Heck, they won the last election. And not all Muslims are bad (I refer to Muslims because oddly enough, Asian and East-European immigrants don't cause much trouble at all). I had several second generation immigrants in my high school class and those guys were hardworking respectful individuals. But for every decent person there are another nine rotten, morally torn apart by the culture clash they experience every day. The culture clash cannot be ignored. But how is that our fault? We were here first...



It doesn't bother me that they get to wear robes. And by robes I meant burkas, obviously. But it's common courtesy to take off your headdress to the teacher. They basically skip all our customs by using the religion get-out-of-trouble card. If an employer refuses to hire a Muslim because of the burka, drama ensues. "I'm sorry, ma'am, but your burka makes you less suitable for the job than Mr. Jensen over there" would be the obvious reason, but you can't say that, because then you're a racist Muslim-hater and you get sued and end up in the news. Because you told a woman she couldn't wear her burka at work.

Speaking of work. We've had about a dozen Muslims come through where I work. They were all fired and reported to the police for fraud and thefth. So were a lot of "white" people, but percentage wise, they won.

Perhaps I'm discriminative not very tolerant. I'll make sure they engrave that on my headstone if I die in a terrorist attack.

Edited, Nov 9th 2006 at 2:12pm PST by Mazra

I really doubt that the Danish immigration policy is dictated by what the Swedes think of you guys.





That can't be true. Refugees cant stay in a country forever, and if they stay beyond their allowed stay, they become "illegal immigrants" and not refugees. I can only assume that a refugee turned illegal immigrant who decided to start a family and put his kids in school, in a small country like Denmark, would be found out pretty soon.

All this to say, that the ones you complain against must be the kids of legal immigrants, those who came to your country because they were allowed to, and needed.



Exactly. And if you're a "small nationalistic country", it's not so surprising.



It's not so much that they can't figure what's right and wrong, but that they struggle to find their identity, especially in a small nationalistic country. They're not from the same religion, they don't have a common history, and they tend to stick out like sore thumbs in a county of blonded blue eyed people.

It's not easy. I'm not being hippy, but being a teenager is troublesome enough on its own, and having an identity crisis and a sense of not-belonging is not easy to deal with. We've had this in France, where women that had fled Muslim countries where they were oppressed came in the 60s. They threw off the veil, and lived like the locals french women. And everyone was surprised when their kids had identity crisis, turned back to Islam, wore the veil, felt Morroccan, etc... It's a normal process.




See, that's kinda rascist.



That too. Man, you're making huge generalities about a religion of 2 billion people out of a troublesome few. And you're confusing Islam with Al-Qaeda. These people are crazy fanatics, they are not Islam. It's like like saying Christians are murderers because of the KKK. It's just an extreme fringe, a loud and violent minority. 0.001%.




They had to remove pork from the school menu? Someone call the FBI...





Both are kinda silly, no?



So he's a complete prick. That's just one guy.

Look, you're mixing international relations with school dinners and media reports. And somehow you think all of this together makes some big coherent picture. That it all ties in and can be explained by the fact Muslims are bad.

It's an incredible over-simplification and generality. It's not about being hippy, it's about having a clear and complete picture, not just picking up small fragments that you tape together to make the mosaique you want to see.

Anyway, at the end of the day, you're fighting a lost cause. They're here to stay. So the best thing you can do, is devote your energy to try and make it work, instead of spending it wagging your fist agaisnt the wind. It's completely pointless. You won't send them back. You won't frighten them into becoming more Danish. All this raging and raving does is to increase the tensions. Nothing more. Nothing positive comes out of it.

So stop generalising and trying to find grand schemes of things. Lots of Muslims are great, and some are ********. It's like that for most things in life. You have to take it case by case, and not try to find some grand explanation based on race or religion to categorise and label a huge group of people.

FTFY

eh, around these parts Latino people are still seen as too inferior to cause any real crime. Cause people can't speak English they are thought to be stupid.
They are not feared like Blacks at any rate; nor are MiddleEasterners.
Nah, blacks still take the cake around here for "lock your car-door, hide your money, cross to the other side of street, run wehn you get around the corner, ain't given my taxes to no poor blacks". Every local news cast, every robbery, every shooting, every drug deal, and car-jacking.... ususally blamed on blacks.

Maybe our level of racism hasn't yet matured over here like it has on the West.

Well, I just read she was allowed to keep her face-veil as long as it didn't interfere with the judicial process.

Meaning as long as the judge can hear what she says, it's ok. But given the seniority of many judges, that shouldn't be taken for granted.

I don't think it should be allowed. Western society seperates church from government. Religion has absolutely no place in the court room, as far as the court is concerned it's a hat. Religion is stripped the second you walk into a court room, once that is done it's no different than a lawyer wearing a baseball cap. It may not be a law, but it's still not appropriate to wear head coverings in a court room in western culture. If you're from another culture you adapt to our customs, not the other way around.

I don't care if your religion requires you to wear it or not. If the job requires you to remove it and you aren't willing to do that, don't take the job.

Muslims from what I understand can't eat pigs for religious reasons. Well then they wouldn't get a job on a pig farm. If you can't adapt to a particular rule/custom in a society due to your religion then quite frankly you need to remove yourself from the situation.

Established societies should not have to change their customs/methods (I mean come on...changing school meals that they didn't have to eat...that's retarded) to accomodate your religious beliefs. That goes both ways, I wouldn't go to a muslim country and expect them to allow me to have a pig roast.

You can argue that it has no effect on her ability to perform her job, and it doesn't. It is however a distraction for everyone else, whether you like it or not it draws attention to her when it should be on the topic at hand. Back to the lawyer with the baseball cap on, are you going to be thinking about what he's saying or thinking "WTF is he wearing a baseball cap for?" There are places and situations where different IS bad.