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Fossil Fuel dependencyFollow

#1 Sep 25 2006 at 1:07 PM Rating: Good
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So are we (as the libbys would claim) at the mercy of the oil and automotive industries for purely commercial motives?

Is enough genuine effort put into sustainable energy (wind, wave, botanical fuels, Nucular etc)?

That arch-dolt & fashion icon Al Gore was interviewed on UK radio and struck a chord with me:

Al Gore wrote:
We didn't leave the Stone Age because we ran out of stone!


Do we keep maintaining our dependency on a handful of texas rednecks and Middle-eastern Despots because we need to, or because it suits a handful of people pulling the strings at the Whitehouse and No 10?

Why have we not broken the shackles of Jed Clampett's Black gold (Texas tea)?
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#2 Sep 25 2006 at 1:23 PM Rating: Good
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what was the middle one again?
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#3 Sep 25 2006 at 1:24 PM Rating: Good
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
what was the middle one again?
Pie
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#4 Sep 25 2006 at 1:28 PM Rating: Decent
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I imagine we'll continue using oil until gas prices are around $35/gallon, at which point the entire world will go broke and people will **** their pants and -- necessity being the mother of invention -- we'll fast-track research and production of alternative fuels (I'm guessing beer).

Until then, we'll use up whatever natural resource is around until it's gone, just like any other animal would.

Smiley: schooled
#5 Sep 25 2006 at 1:30 PM Rating: Good
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Is this not the nature of Capitalism? resources be damned!
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#6 Sep 25 2006 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Jawbox hit the nail on the head in a roundabout sort of way.

The answer is simple: we'll continue to use up fossil fuels until the price and cost of providing it as a fuel begin to exceed the price and cost of alternatives. At this point, capitalism will do its job and encourage business to develop cheaper and cheaper means of providing alternative fuel sources.
#7 Sep 25 2006 at 1:33 PM Rating: Good
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Jawbox wrote:
I imagine we'll continue using oil until gas prices are around $35/gallon, at which point the entire world will go broke and people will sh*t their pants and -- necessity being the mother of invention -- we'll fast-track research and production of alternative fuels (I'm guessing beer).
Smiley: schooled


It'll be before $35/gallon. Once it gets high enough for the people to really start putting up a stink about it, this will happen. There are already alternatives out there, some just need refined and perfected. We started hearing more about them the past 2 years, and the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is a result.

If the Oil Tycoons are smart, they'll keep the oil prices just low enough to where the rumblings of the people aren't too loud, and high enough to pad their bank accounts sufficiently to be comfortable when the inevitable change happens. And they are smart enough for that, be assured.

Or I could be just completely talking out my *** whilst waiting for my next meeting to start.
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#8 Sep 25 2006 at 1:36 PM Rating: Good
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nekio wrote:
Jawbox hit the nail on the head in a roundabout sort of way.
Oh dear sweet baby Jebus and all the angels!!!

That's one smashed up piece of wood you just damaged there mr carpenter!
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#9 Sep 25 2006 at 1:46 PM Rating: Good
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Kakar wrote:
It'll be before $35/gallon. Once it gets high enough for the people to really start putting up a stink about it, this will happen. There are already alternatives out there, some just need refined and perfected. We started hearing more about them the past 2 years, and the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is a result.


You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue. Currently, oil is simply the cheapest way to provide for the power needs of the people of the world. Alternatives are great, but the cost more and will for some time. Once the cost for oil rises to the point where alternatives become viable um... alternatives, then we'll see them get larger shares of the power market.

People can ***** about gas prices all they want, but if it'll cost *more* for them to do the same thing using an alternative, that desire for a lower price wont make the alternatives happen. Only the relative price will.
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#10 Sep 25 2006 at 1:55 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Kakar wrote:
It'll be before $35/gallon. Once it gets high enough for the people to really start putting up a stink about it, this will happen. There are already alternatives out there, some just need refined and perfected. We started hearing more about them the past 2 years, and the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is a result.


You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue. Currently, oil is simply the cheapest way to provide for the power needs of the people of the world. Alternatives are great, but the cost more and will for some time. Once the cost for oil rises to the point where alternatives become viable um... alternatives, then we'll see them get larger shares of the power market.

People can ***** about gas prices all they want, but if it'll cost *more* for them to do the same thing using an alternative, that desire for a lower price wont make the alternatives happen. Only the relative price will.
Nobody's picking up on the predictions that Fossil Fuels (Coal Oil, Gas) are likely to run out in 20 to 50 years
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#11 Sep 25 2006 at 2:00 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
Kakar wrote:
It'll be before $35/gallon. Once it gets high enough for the people to really start putting up a stink about it, this will happen. There are already alternatives out there, some just need refined and perfected. We started hearing more about them the past 2 years, and the proliferation of hybrid vehicles is a result.


You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue. Currently, oil is simply the cheapest way to provide for the power needs of the people of the world. Alternatives are great, but the cost more and will for some time. Once the cost for oil rises to the point where alternatives become viable um... alternatives, then we'll see them get larger shares of the power market.

People can ***** about gas prices all they want, but if it'll cost *more* for them to do the same thing using an alternative, that desire for a lower price wont make the alternatives happen. Only the relative price will.


[:rollseyes:]Brazil has become almost totally independent of foreign oil. They've used many techniques including Biodiesel. They started weaning themselves off of foreign oil 10 years ago. I've read many articles about this and nothing has been said about the Brazilian populous ******** about prices. People like you, Bush and the rest of the Pubies should be screaming for this. After all, it's the first step in getting out of the Middle East and helping “secure our borders”.





Edited, Sep 25th 2006 at 6:02pm EDT by fenderputy
#12 Sep 25 2006 at 2:01 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue.


You don't think people raising a stink about how much fuel costs has any thing to do with the market for it?
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#13 Sep 25 2006 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue.


You don't think!


Fixed
#14 Sep 25 2006 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
Nobody's picking up on the predictions that Fossil Fuels (Coal Oil, Gas) are likely to run out in 20 to 50 years


That's because it's BS. In all of human history, we have never "run out" of a consumable resource. I suggest reading A POVERTY OF REASON
Sustainable Development and Economic Growth

By Wilfred Beckerman. He points out quite a few examples of predictions of natural resources being exhausted, each of which falls through for two reasons: 1. Estimates of undiscovered reserves are always incorrect and 2. As was stated previously, economic variables will never allow for a resource to be completely used up, as alternatives will be created.
#15 Sep 25 2006 at 2:06 PM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue.


You don't think people raising a stink about how much fuel costs has any thing to do with the market for it?

Not really. It's not about what people say but what they buy (or don't buy). People ***** and moan about today's gas prices but keep on fillin' up.
#16 Sep 25 2006 at 2:09 PM Rating: Decent
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Jawbox wrote:
Kakar wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue.


You don't think people raising a stink about how much fuel costs has any thing to do with the market for it?

Not really. It's not about what people say but what they buy (or don't buy). People ***** and moan about today's gas prices but keep on fillin' up.


You post this as if I have a choice.
#17 Sep 25 2006 at 2:09 PM Rating: Good
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nekio wrote:
Quote:
Nobody's picking up on the predictions that Fossil Fuels (Coal Oil, Gas) are likely to run out in 20 to 50 years


That's because it's BS. In all of human history, we have never "run out" of a consumable resource. I suggest reading A POVERTY OF REASON
Sustainable Development and Economic Growth

By Wilfred Beckerman. He points out quite a few examples of predictions of natural resources being exhausted, each of which falls through for two reasons: 1. Estimates of undiscovered reserves are always incorrect and 2. As was stated previously, economic variables will never allow for a resource to be completely used up, as alternatives will be created.


The hell?

1. If you can't find a resource, you've run out of it. Regardless if it's in some super secret dimension that you can't get to it, there's still no more available. If you can't get any more essentially, you've run out.

2. It doesn't matter if an alternative is created. Just because you've found an alternative doesn't mean that what you used to use isn't still gone.
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#18 Sep 25 2006 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
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fenderputy wrote:
Jawbox wrote:
Kakar wrote:
gbaji wrote:
You're on the right track, but it really has nothing to do with how much of a stink people make. It's a purely market issue.


You don't think people raising a stink about how much fuel costs has any thing to do with the market for it?

Not really. It's not about what people say but what they buy (or don't buy). People ***** and moan about today's gas prices but keep on fillin' up.


You post this as if I have a choice.

Wow. You live in the boondocks? No public bus system? No taxis? No bicycles? Not even a car pool?

What if gas was $3,000/gallon? Would you, like, die of starvation because the oil companies are forcing you to pay that much? Smiley: dubious
#19 Sep 25 2006 at 2:16 PM Rating: Decent
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Kakar wrote:
nekio wrote:
Quote:
Nobody's picking up on the predictions that Fossil Fuels (Coal Oil, Gas) are likely to run out in 20 to 50 years


That's because it's BS. In all of human history, we have never "run out" of a consumable resource. I suggest reading A POVERTY OF REASON
Sustainable Development and Economic Growth

By Wilfred Beckerman. He points out quite a few examples of predictions of natural resources being exhausted, each of which falls through for two reasons: 1. Estimates of undiscovered reserves are always incorrect and 2. As was stated previously, economic variables will never allow for a resource to be completely used up, as alternatives will be created.


The hell?

1. If you can't find a resource, you've run out of it. Regardless if it's in some super secret dimension that you can't get to it, there's still no more available. If you can't get any more essentially, you've run out.

2. It doesn't matter if an alternative is created. Just because you've found an alternative doesn't mean that what you used to use isn't still gone.


LOL

I just ignored his gibberish.
#20 Sep 25 2006 at 2:17 PM Rating: Good
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this ain't Eur'p. We need our cars, not your smelly buses and pansy bicycles.
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#21 Sep 25 2006 at 2:18 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jawbox wrote:
I imagine we'll continue using oil until gas prices are around $35/gallon, at which point the entire world will go broke...
Yeah, that's the part we should be working to avoid instead of the whole "Well, once gas hits $35/gal then burning buckets of sapphires will be cheaper so we'll switch a sapphire-driven industrial economy until those run out."

I posted from a Crain article not too long about how how much money was being siphoned from the Chicago economy due to fuel prices a couple months back. An intelligent administration, be it Republican, Democrat or Other, should be helping work towards an affordable alternative before it fucks the nation's economy in the *** and has us all living in scrap metal shacks and raising goats.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#22 Sep 25 2006 at 2:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
this ain't Eur'p. We need our cars, not your smelly buses and pansy bicycles.

Pfft... cars are for pansies too. A real American drives a Hummer, or Cadillac Escalade. Smiley: oyvey
#23 Sep 25 2006 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
An intelligent administration, be it Republican, Democrat or Other, should be helping work towards an affordable alternative before it fucks the nation's economy in the *** and has us all living in scrap metal shacks and raising goats.


Why do you hate goats?
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#24 Sep 25 2006 at 2:20 PM Rating: Good
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Jawbox wrote:
Kelvyquayo wrote:
this ain't Eur'p. We need our cars, not your smelly buses and pansy bicycles.

Pfft... cars are for pansies too. A real American drives a Hummer, or Cadillac Escalade. Smiley: oyvey


Pshhht

I real aMer'can drives those and still calls'em cars.
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#25 Sep 25 2006 at 2:21 PM Rating: Excellent
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Kakar wrote:
Why do you hate goats?
Can you squeeze oil out of them?
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#26 Sep 25 2006 at 2:23 PM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
The hell?

1. If you can't find a resource, you've run out of it. Regardless if it's in some super secret dimension that you can't get to it, there's still no more available. If you can't get any more essentially, you've run out.

2. It doesn't matter if an alternative is created. Just because you've found an alternative doesn't mean that what you used to use isn't still gone.


1. The people touting the "gone in 40-50 years" figures are basing their calculations off of current known reserves. The reason the predictions are such a load is because we always find more reserves. This again goes back to economics: if a resource becomes scarce, the value of the resource goes up. This results in increased effort to find more of said resource. The result? We end up excavating brand new reserves and the predicitons go to hell.

2. As was said before, you will NEVER run out of a resource, simply because the value of a resource increases as supply decreases. Who the hell is going to use gasoline to run their car when it costs $1000 a gallon?

P.S. I have no idea where people get the "40-50 years" figure. Based on current consumption, reserves and efficiency, we won't run out of fossil fuels for 700 years.

Edited, Sep 25th 2006 at 6:33pm EDT by nekio
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