Lord Darkuwa wrote:
In a swing state? Your vote definitly counts. In Texas Illinois or California? nort really.
Do you know what a swing state is?
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Question for those whose "votes dont count anyways"Follow
Do you know what a swing state is?
NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
Lord Darkuwa wrote:
In a swing state? Your vote definitly counts. In Texas Illinois or California? nort really.
Do you know what a swing state is?
My guess to his reply:
Lord Darkuwa wrote:
nort really.
My response to people who think their vote doesn't count:
Do you think your vote should count for more than my vote?
Are your opinions, judgments, or decision making processes more valid than mine?
Do you think you should have more of an influence in our democracy than I do, or anyone else does?
Everyone's vote counts, it is tallied as 1 vote, no more and no less. That is the only way to keep things fair and equal.
If you don't vote, your vote doesn't count. Your opinion is irrelevant because you did not participate in the decision making process, and therefore have no justification to criticize policies that were created as a result of this decision making process.
Keep in mind that about %50 of eligible voters actually vote. Therefore, if someone is polled to have 60% support in a certain state, we can assume it will be about 60% of the 50% of people that vote. This means that people who win elections get around 30% of the overall total possible vote tally.
So 30% of the people dictate what policies the other 70% of us have to abide by, and still people think they they have no choice in the matter.
Don't give up your freedom so easily.
Do you think your vote should count for more than my vote?
Are your opinions, judgments, or decision making processes more valid than mine?
Do you think you should have more of an influence in our democracy than I do, or anyone else does?
Everyone's vote counts, it is tallied as 1 vote, no more and no less. That is the only way to keep things fair and equal.
If you don't vote, your vote doesn't count. Your opinion is irrelevant because you did not participate in the decision making process, and therefore have no justification to criticize policies that were created as a result of this decision making process.
Keep in mind that about %50 of eligible voters actually vote. Therefore, if someone is polled to have 60% support in a certain state, we can assume it will be about 60% of the 50% of people that vote. This means that people who win elections get around 30% of the overall total possible vote tally.
So 30% of the people dictate what policies the other 70% of us have to abide by, and still people think they they have no choice in the matter.
Don't give up your freedom so easily.
Quote:
Do you think your vote should count for more than my vote?
Are your opinions, judgments, or decision making processes more valid than mine?
Do you think you should have more of an influence in our democracy than I do, or anyone else does?
Are your opinions, judgments, or decision making processes more valid than mine?
Do you think you should have more of an influence in our democracy than I do, or anyone else does?
Quote:
Quote:
Do you think your vote should count for more than my vote?
Are your opinions, judgments, or decision making processes more valid than mine?
Do you think you should have more of an influence in our democracy than I do, or anyone else does?
Yes, yes, and yes. This is entirely irrelevant because I really don't care who wins.
Do you think your vote should count for more than my vote?
Are your opinions, judgments, or decision making processes more valid than mine?
Do you think you should have more of an influence in our democracy than I do, or anyone else does?
Yes, yes, and yes. This is entirely irrelevant because I really don't care who wins.
Why should you have more of an influence than anyone else, especially someone who cares?
Do you really not care about the policies that prevent or allow you to do certain things at a certain time in certain places?
Quote:
And since when the hell do you need to be justified in criticism?
If your criticism is not justified, what basis do you have to request a
change? You must justify your criticism of the current policy in order to
justify an alternative you would like to see implemented. If you don’t
justify it, then there is no standard of measurement for which to make
judgments or decisions.
However, if you don’t offer an alternative solution, then yes, you can just
sit back and criticize. Most likely though you are still going to be part
of the problem, and you are not offering a solution, just background noise.
It seems like a lonely life to not care about nor take part in the decisions
that our communities make.
Quote:
You honestly believe that two people having the same opinion of a government policy would have those opinions be of unequal validity based on whether or not they pushed a button?
Pushing a button symbolizes making a choice about public policy. If you do
not “push that button†you are choosing not to participate in making a
choice about public policy. So if someone had an opinion (or argument when
faced with multiplicity) that they chose not to implement by making the
decision to participate in the process of implementing policies then I would
not consider their argument as valid as someone who attempted to follow
through or actuate their opinion by participating in the process of
implementing policies.
An valid opinion didn't write the Constitution of the U.S. nor did it fight the war for Independence, people with similar opinions took action, voted, and acted on those decisions. It is only through bringing forth our opinions into actions that any benefit will arise for humanity.
P.S. I hate representational democracy and electronic voting.
Matjlav wrote:
People say "my vote doesn't count" because it, on an individual basis, doesn't. Unless your state has 2,500,000 votes against 249,999,999, then you can't say that your vote made a difference.
Um. Not to overstate the obvious, but how exactly do you think the first 2,499,999 votes got there? If all of them had decided not to vote because their one vote wouldn't matter, then you wouldn't ever have that case...
To toss in the sports analogy. Did your run in the baseball game "count" if you still lost the game by 5 points? It still counted as a run. It brought you closer to victory. At the time you scored it you couldn't say for sure how many total points would be scored by either side.
At the end of the game, one team wins and one loses. But every single point scored by both sides "count" towards determining that winner. So yeah. Vote.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Driftwood the Eccentric wrote:
Nizdaar wrote:
That's an old debate. How it's debated really depends on your electoral system.
I hope some day we'll have proportional representation in Canada rather than our current system. It's probably the most fair and best way to get more people to vote since their vote really does matter.
I hope some day we'll have proportional representation in Canada rather than our current system. It's probably the most fair and best way to get more people to vote since their vote really does matter.
Are you talking about the fact that the only votes that count are from Southern Ontario & Quebec because of the population? Or is there another problem with our system?
I'm not sure the issue of Southern Ontario & Quebec affecting the vote so much will ever go away. Each person's vote can only be worth the same as everyone elses. Since the majority of the population live in these two areas, the small geographic area will always have the majority of the voice. It is, however, also the voice of the majority of the people. I don't know if it really is the majority, but it certainly is a very large percentage.
Using the NDP in the last federal election as an example, they were shafted. 17.49% share of the popular vote but only 29 seats? Meanwhile the Bloc received 10.48% of the popular vote but recieved 51 seats.
The same deal happened with the NDP in the last provincial election in Ontario. The NDP recieved a much higher popular vote than they received seats. As a result they lost their offical party status. That I think the Liberals made a mistake by not allowing them to keep it is a whole other matter.
CBC still has their election coverage up from the last federal election. http://www.cbc.ca/canadavotes/
Parties like the NDP and Green Party and their supporters would make their voice better heard, as would areas other than S. Ontario and Quebec under proproptional representation. I'm not a supporter of either of those parties but it would be a good thing if they had the ability to better represent what Canadians feel is important.
While I'm on a soapbox, why the feck do we allow a federal party to hold a single seat in parliment when their sole purpose is to break up the federation?.
Why should you have more of an influence than anyone else, especially someone who cares?
This one should be obvious almost to the point of being unwittingly rhetorical. Does a bear **** in the woods? Would you like fries with that? Hey sexy, ya wanna do it?
Do you really not care about the policies that prevent or allow you to do certain things at a certain time in certain places?
Quite the contrary. I am usually vehemently opposed to such interferences in our citizens' personal affairs and after a brief period intense and irrational anger I promptly return to a state of indifferent apathy.
Slow down there sparky, you seem to have confused yourself here. Justifying one's own criticism and being justified in making said criticism are two entirely different things. Simply being a citizen of the good ole US of A is more than enough justification to criticize any government policy or law, and really you don't even need that.
It seems like a lonely life to not care about nor take part in the decisions
that our communities make.
You would think so, wouldn't you? Surprisingly that isn't the case at all and I find it rather comforting that I need not concern myself with such trivial details as budgets, who wants to put up a strip club where, or our national relationship with Iran. I'm way too busy pretending to be busy to worry about politics and my taxes are spent on paying other people to do that for me. That's why we have politicians. They do thier jobs so I don't have to because quite frankly I don't have the time, energy, or interest to deal with the myriad minutiae that is day to day politics.
Pushing a button symbolizes making a choice about public policy. If you do
not “push that button†you are choosing not to participate in making a
choice about public policy. So if someone had an opinion (or argument when
faced with multiplicity) that they chose not to implement by making the
decision to participate in the process of implementing policies then I would
not consider their argument as valid as someone who attempted to follow
through or actuate their opinion by participating in the process of
implementing policies.
Ok, now I'm just going to have to call you an idiot. When a point is made, it's validity has nothing to do with the motives or morals of those that make it. Two identical opinions will have the exact same validity regardless of whether one of the people did or did not vote. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that voting equates to lawmaking and public policy implementation, which it most certainly does not. When you vote you are giving someone else that responsibility based on a set of criteria you've set for yourself that you believe the person for which you are voting also subscribes. You aren't participating in ****.
An valid opinion didn't write the Constitution of the U.S. nor did it fight the war for Independence, people with similar opinions took action, voted, and acted on those decisions. It is only through bringing forth our opinions into actions that any benefit will arise for humanity.
Are you seriously trying to compare the birth of our great nation with the modern political arena? You really can't outside of a conceptual fashion as the two situations bear such little resemblance to each other. Yeah, a bunch of people get together and vote on something and then do what they voted on. Ideally that would be great but that isn't real life or real politics, it doesn't happen like that, being true moreso today than in the early days of this country. Democracy in theory is wonderful except for the part where they forgot to take into account the human condition, not entirely unlike Communism.
******* hippy.
This one should be obvious almost to the point of being unwittingly rhetorical. Does a bear **** in the woods? Would you like fries with that? Hey sexy, ya wanna do it?
Do you really not care about the policies that prevent or allow you to do certain things at a certain time in certain places?
Quite the contrary. I am usually vehemently opposed to such interferences in our citizens' personal affairs and after a brief period intense and irrational anger I promptly return to a state of indifferent apathy.
Quote:
something something criticism something
Slow down there sparky, you seem to have confused yourself here. Justifying one's own criticism and being justified in making said criticism are two entirely different things. Simply being a citizen of the good ole US of A is more than enough justification to criticize any government policy or law, and really you don't even need that.
It seems like a lonely life to not care about nor take part in the decisions
that our communities make.
You would think so, wouldn't you? Surprisingly that isn't the case at all and I find it rather comforting that I need not concern myself with such trivial details as budgets, who wants to put up a strip club where, or our national relationship with Iran. I'm way too busy pretending to be busy to worry about politics and my taxes are spent on paying other people to do that for me. That's why we have politicians. They do thier jobs so I don't have to because quite frankly I don't have the time, energy, or interest to deal with the myriad minutiae that is day to day politics.
Pushing a button symbolizes making a choice about public policy. If you do
not “push that button†you are choosing not to participate in making a
choice about public policy. So if someone had an opinion (or argument when
faced with multiplicity) that they chose not to implement by making the
decision to participate in the process of implementing policies then I would
not consider their argument as valid as someone who attempted to follow
through or actuate their opinion by participating in the process of
implementing policies.
Ok, now I'm just going to have to call you an idiot. When a point is made, it's validity has nothing to do with the motives or morals of those that make it. Two identical opinions will have the exact same validity regardless of whether one of the people did or did not vote. You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that voting equates to lawmaking and public policy implementation, which it most certainly does not. When you vote you are giving someone else that responsibility based on a set of criteria you've set for yourself that you believe the person for which you are voting also subscribes. You aren't participating in ****.
An valid opinion didn't write the Constitution of the U.S. nor did it fight the war for Independence, people with similar opinions took action, voted, and acted on those decisions. It is only through bringing forth our opinions into actions that any benefit will arise for humanity.
Are you seriously trying to compare the birth of our great nation with the modern political arena? You really can't outside of a conceptual fashion as the two situations bear such little resemblance to each other. Yeah, a bunch of people get together and vote on something and then do what they voted on. Ideally that would be great but that isn't real life or real politics, it doesn't happen like that, being true moreso today than in the early days of this country. Democracy in theory is wonderful except for the part where they forgot to take into account the human condition, not entirely unlike Communism.
******* hippy.
Vague non-explanations, misunderstandings, logical fallacies, and name-calling...reminds me of a politician.
Strictly speaking this is true, a valid argument is one in which, if all the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Neither the premises nor the conclusions need to be true in order for it to be valid argument. However, the premises will always be based on some type of motive, meaning, purpose, value, or belief system which would be an argument subject to the validity test.
Assuming that the issue is one that is decided by an elected representative or direct vote and they chose not to vote, then no, their argument would not be valid.
Example of someone who votes: A valid argument.
I think we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 1, 2, and 3. Candidate A thinks we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 2 and 3. Candidate B does not think we need healthcare for every person under the age of 18. We can participate in deciding who gets to make the decision about issuing healthcare to everyone under the age of 18 by voting. Therefore, I voted for candidate A because he will provide us with the best opportunity to get healthcare for every person under 18.
Example of someone who doesn't vote: Not a valid argument.
I think we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 1, 2, and 3. Candidate A thinks we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 2 and 3. Candidate B does not think we need healthcare for every person under the age of 18. We can participate in deciding who gets to make the decision about issuing healthcare to everyone under the age of 18 by voting. Therefore, I did not vote.
I'm curious, can anyone come up with a valid argument about a specific social policy that includes not voting?
If there are no candidates that you think would offer an advantage over another candidate for any reason, write someone in. All votes are supposed to be tallied and in many cases the "public opinion" is derived form these results.
Not in most cases, but it does have a very relevant and direct effect.
I'm not trying to compare the birth of the U.S. to the modern political arena, I'm simply saying that if you have an opinion and you don't act on it, the opinion is pretty much worthless, unless someone else acts on it. We can all have grand opinions about how to fix the problems of the world but unless we tell anyone about them or act on them they do absolutely no good.
Insert trite egotistical comment here...
Quote:
When a point is made, it's validity has nothing to do with the motives or morals of those that make it.
Strictly speaking this is true, a valid argument is one in which, if all the premises are true, the conclusion must be true. Neither the premises nor the conclusions need to be true in order for it to be valid argument. However, the premises will always be based on some type of motive, meaning, purpose, value, or belief system which would be an argument subject to the validity test.
Quote:
Two identical opinions will have the exact same validity regardless of whether one of the people did or did not vote
Assuming that the issue is one that is decided by an elected representative or direct vote and they chose not to vote, then no, their argument would not be valid.
Example of someone who votes: A valid argument.
I think we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 1, 2, and 3. Candidate A thinks we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 2 and 3. Candidate B does not think we need healthcare for every person under the age of 18. We can participate in deciding who gets to make the decision about issuing healthcare to everyone under the age of 18 by voting. Therefore, I voted for candidate A because he will provide us with the best opportunity to get healthcare for every person under 18.
Example of someone who doesn't vote: Not a valid argument.
I think we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 1, 2, and 3. Candidate A thinks we should have healthcare for every person under the age of 18 for reasons 2 and 3. Candidate B does not think we need healthcare for every person under the age of 18. We can participate in deciding who gets to make the decision about issuing healthcare to everyone under the age of 18 by voting. Therefore, I did not vote.
I'm curious, can anyone come up with a valid argument about a specific social policy that includes not voting?
If there are no candidates that you think would offer an advantage over another candidate for any reason, write someone in. All votes are supposed to be tallied and in many cases the "public opinion" is derived form these results.
Quote:
You also seem to be under the mistaken impression that voting equates to lawmaking and public policy implementation
Not in most cases, but it does have a very relevant and direct effect.
I'm not trying to compare the birth of the U.S. to the modern political arena, I'm simply saying that if you have an opinion and you don't act on it, the opinion is pretty much worthless, unless someone else acts on it. We can all have grand opinions about how to fix the problems of the world but unless we tell anyone about them or act on them they do absolutely no good.
Insert trite egotistical comment here...
As far as presidential elections, Oregon has always fallen the way I vote anyways, so my vote really isn't a big deal. Its not that it doesnt count, but if I were voting against the majority, I'd be much more inclined to vote. That being said, I did vote in the last election, even though I knew Oregon would be going for Kerry.
Why'd kerry end up being the democratic nomination again?
Why'd kerry end up being the democratic nomination again?
Living in one of the heaviest Democratic parts of one of the most heavily Democratic states, my vote would be a drop in an ocean.
publiusvarus wrote:
we all know liberals are well adjusted american citizens who only want what's best for society. While conservatives are evil money grubbing scum who only want to sh*t on the little man and rob the world of its resources.
I was thinking about how all the votes I cast over the years that have counted or just added to the forgone conclusion of the talking heads. In national elections would my vote wouldn't have a chance at changing the outcome by itself.
Local elections are a far different matter, when it comes to an individuals vote. The smaller the percentage of voters that do vote in local elections give an outsider a chance of winning, against the local party machine.
Plus, when a politician knows he is talking to someone who is sure to vote in upcoming elections, they are more likely to take the voter's opinion in mind, when the subject comes up for a vote in the legislate.
Only problem for being someone who is known to be sure to vote each election, is the amount of pre-recorder phone calls and bulk mailing, we got right before the Primary this month. I know a lot of people in Maryland were fed up with the flood of calls that fill up their voice mail boxes.
Local elections are a far different matter, when it comes to an individuals vote. The smaller the percentage of voters that do vote in local elections give an outsider a chance of winning, against the local party machine.
Plus, when a politician knows he is talking to someone who is sure to vote in upcoming elections, they are more likely to take the voter's opinion in mind, when the subject comes up for a vote in the legislate.
Only problem for being someone who is known to be sure to vote each election, is the amount of pre-recorder phone calls and bulk mailing, we got right before the Primary this month. I know a lot of people in Maryland were fed up with the flood of calls that fill up their voice mail boxes.
In the place of a Dark Lord you would have a Queen! Not dark but beautiful and terrible as the Morn! Treacherous as the Seas! Stronger than the foundations of the Earth! All shall love me and despair! -ElneClare
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
This Post is written in Elnese, If it was an actual Post, it would make sense.
digitalcraft wrote:
As far as presidential elections, Oregon has always fallen the way I vote anyways, so my vote really isn't a big deal. Its not that it doesnt count, but if I were voting against the majority, I'd be much more inclined to vote. That being said, I did vote in the last election, even though I knew Oregon would be going for Kerry.
Considering how close the last two presidential elections have been in Oregon especially 2000), and the fact that there are a lot of signs that the state is starting to trend Republican, right now any Democratic vote means a whole helluva lot.
Swing states, those are those states where they trade wives for a night, right?
Totem
Totem
And just how, exactly, do you shave a soul? Does it get a neat little trim in a heart shape, or a runway, or does the soul just get the razor till it's bald like a prepubescent soul? And does the soul's shape change with cultural norms like Playboy bunnies in the '70's with the full-on jungle complete with monkeys and macaws screeching in there to the present '00 minimalist look?
Just curious.
Totem
Just curious.
Totem
Totem wrote:
And just how, exactly, do you shave a soul?
I would presume it'd get shaved almost completely bald, except for a soul patch.
Most people I know who don't vote claim that their vote doesn't matter because it is just one vote among many, and it won't change the outcome. What they really mean is that they think their vote should be the deciding vote, the one that tips the scales, the one that ultimately decides the winner of an election. If they believe that their vote will not decide or change the outcome of the election by itself or if they know their candidate will lose they think, "bah what is the point of voting, my vote doesn't count (my vote will not decide the election)."
People that do vote have an understanding that their vote will not decide the election. They understand that their opinion and their vote is just one among many valid opinions and votes, and that all they are doing is contributing their belief towards the community decision of deciding who holds a public office. They do not have such an inflated ego as to believe that their vote should be the ultimate deciding vote, that they should be the ones to tip the scales, or that their opinion should count any more than someone else who cares and tried their best to decide.
lol, it isn't picturable, and therefore not imagineable
its an attempt to bring together the realm of common sense (tangible, picturable, imagineable) with the realm of theory (intangible, ideation of a soul, beyond the empirical)
People that do vote have an understanding that their vote will not decide the election. They understand that their opinion and their vote is just one among many valid opinions and votes, and that all they are doing is contributing their belief towards the community decision of deciding who holds a public office. They do not have such an inflated ego as to believe that their vote should be the ultimate deciding vote, that they should be the ones to tip the scales, or that their opinion should count any more than someone else who cares and tried their best to decide.
Quote:
And just how, exactly, do you shave a soul? Does it get a neat little trim in a heart shape, or a runway, or does the soul just get the razor till it's bald like a prepubescent soul? And does the soul's shape change with cultural norms like Playboy bunnies in the '70's with the full-on jungle complete with monkeys and macaws screeching in there to the present '00 minimalist look?
lol, it isn't picturable, and therefore not imagineable
its an attempt to bring together the realm of common sense (tangible, picturable, imagineable) with the realm of theory (intangible, ideation of a soul, beyond the empirical)
I live in SLC, Utah. We're so conservative here I vote Socialist or Independent
I live in Texas, I've voted for the past 5 years, and no one I have ever voted for has won their election or primary.
Quote:
an attempt to bring together the realm of common sense (tangible, picturable, imagineable) with the realm of theory (intangible, ideation of a soul, beyond the empirical)
Professor CrescentFresh wrote:
I'm glad morans like you don't vote.
And, btw, I can't vote for 3 years anyway.
---
Jophiel wrote:
Collectively, it does. And without individual effort there's no collection.
Matjlav wrote:
People say "my vote doesn't count" because it, on an individual basis, doesn't.
That phrase wasn't inserted there for decoration, you know.
---
One last thing: Ever heard of the devil's advocate, people? Do you all seriously think that I think voting is a useless practice? "People say" doesn't mean that it's my personal opinion.
Matjlav wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
Collectively, it does. And without individual effort there's no collection.
Matjlav wrote:
People say "my vote doesn't count" because it, on an individual basis, doesn't.
That phrase wasn't inserted there for decoration, you know.
Sure. But voting, somewhat by definition, is a collective process, not an individual one. What voting does "on an individual basis" is absolutely irrelevant.
King Nobby wrote:
More words please
Matjlav wrote:
That phrase wasn't inserted there for decoration, you know.
But if you insist on discussing each vote as its own unique snowflake well then each vote, when considered individually, is a 100% win for one guy or the the other. So yes, individual votes matter.
Edited, Sep 25th 2006 at 6:10pm EDT by Jophiel
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
IMPORTANT NOTICE: As I said in my above post, I'm playing devil's advocate, so keep your insults/sarcasm to yourself.
I'm just telling you how the other people probably feel. They're probably thinking, "Why should I get up and drive and go through the trouble of voting when it's not gonna do anything?" You can say "it's collective" all you want, but that person will still be thinking "My vote won't make a lick of difference anyway."
I'm just telling you how the other people probably feel. They're probably thinking, "Why should I get up and drive and go through the trouble of voting when it's not gonna do anything?" You can say "it's collective" all you want, but that person will still be thinking "My vote won't make a lick of difference anyway."
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