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Muslim extremists compared to Yankee revolutionariesFollow

#1 Sep 18 2006 at 10:22 AM Rating: Good
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I do not condone targeting civilians.

This was just a thought that I had before falling asleep last night.
Ths is not a comparison in tactics, but rather in politics.
Like the United States, the British wanted a military solution to waht was a political problem.

The Colonies revolted due to being unjustly taxed, they were denied the right to manufacture any product or good which was manufactured in England and compelled to purchase goods from English suppliers thus preventing them to compete in any economy.

Now I do not equate the Colonies to the Middle Easten countries; rather I equate the everyday Middle Eastern citizen to the colonists.

I equate Great Britain to those who are raelly running things in The West and in the Middle East. Big buisness; of which it is no secret that the Rulers of the Middle Eastern countries are inectricably tied to their oil wells, whil the common person is forced to maintain an existance through poverty and social degradation in waht is essentially a fuedal lifestyle; having your jobs be dependant on the whims of whoever happens to own wahtever plant or factory in which you are working.
The difference between "them" and "us" is that our citizenry enjoy the fruits of the riches our our capitalist government and their rulers are the ones to enjoy the fruits of their dealings, while the citizenry is kept the way it always has been.

In that kind of society, I can understand the pull towards wanting to go and strike out against those who are keeping you down.
The big differnce here is that these countries hold total religious sway over thier citizens so that it is concidered blasphemy to ever think that their rulers are the evil ones... just as evil as the Great White Satan.

So in essence; all that these people are doing is reacting to their conditions. Their conditions of living in a society oppressed by buisness and capitalism; where their rulers see all the gain and they still remain backwards.
It just so happens that the medium of their "patriotism" is a religious one due to their culture and circumstances.

What choice do they have? keep in mind that their countries have their own military but they are not joining that. It is not the country that has the problem to them.. it is the commoner.. which is who the members of these extremist groups belong to are. It does not matter who they are striking out against. It is simply the fact that they are trying to do something to try to (however misguidedly) improve the situation of their families and brothers. It is not in their nature to place the blame on their religious leadership.. so they place it on us.... who are demonized by that same religious leadership for the sake of self preservation. Keep them hating the West so that they do not realized how tied in they are with us. Not really just the West.... just Buisness really....
For who can deny that the world economy is an Empire in it's own right? people in the rich countries are citzens of that empire, while the people in the poor countries are the 'barbarians'.

round and round we go.
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#2 Sep 18 2006 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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#3 Sep 18 2006 at 10:35 AM Rating: Decent
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The military solution of colonial England was to quash the colonies. The military solution of the United States (and others) is to quash the corrupt leadership. Some would say that it's purely economical (oil), but that's a different debate. I think you're looking at apples and orages when it comes to the comparison, though.

I still think you're right ... the brainwashed extremist masses are a huge part of the problem. They believe everything their leadership tells them, expecting great riches and rewards when they die. They blindly follow their religious leaders without question.

I don't know much about the islamic faith, but I wonder how many differences there are between the church on Main Street, USA and the mosque in Main Street, Nutjobville? Besides the guns, of course.
#4 Sep 18 2006 at 10:36 AM Rating: Good
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An interesting view on things there Kelvy.
Your central premise holds a lot of water.

Back in the 18th century we were homogenous, religiuously speaking (OK, there was the Cafflick v Proddy argument, but that was hardly cogent to the independence argument.)

I can't help thinking the extra 2 dynamics are:

1. Westerners with a tabloid understanding (or lack thereof) of Islam. I know many Muslims who hate what is being done in a perverted misrepresentation of Islam, but are genuinely afraid of being labelled by the extremists (hence a very quiet coindemnation of the terrorism - that and media reluctance to give it air-time. I see several anti-terrorist press releases from islamic organisations that are ignored by mainstream press)

2. A minority of extremists (often only literate in Arabic) who believe the twisted version of the Q'uran handed to them by wannabe Imams.

A parallel is that there were many peace-loving colonials who eschewed violence until they faced brutality by the British army of occupation and rebelled.
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#5 Sep 18 2006 at 10:41 AM Rating: Excellent
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sulleih wrote:
I wonder how many differences there are between the church on Main Street, USA and the mosque in Main Street, Nutjobville? Besides the guns, of course.
Very little

Swallowing twisted views of their holy books to further the personal agenda of a tinpot prelate.

The Jebus I used to follow preached tolerance, love and forgiveness. Too many priests had their own "Yes, but" clauses (Gays, divorced couples, victims of substance abuse etc etc).

My response to organised religions? FUck 'em all.

But I can't condemn American's for the rabid views of a few in-bred pastors, same as I can't condemn muslims for some of their self-appointed nutters-in-charge

The only credibility is what we give them.
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#6 Sep 18 2006 at 10:47 AM Rating: Decent
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You've assumed though that every action is a reaction and uninitiated on their part.

What can they do? Draw and quarter their stupid neighbors who keep blowing up women and children. That would help.

Quote:
1. Westerners with a tabloid understanding (or lack thereof) of Islam. I know many Muslims who hate what is being done in a perverted misrepresentation of Islam, but are genuinely afraid of being labelled by the extremists (hence a very quiet coindemnation of the terrorism - that and media reluctance to give it air-time. I see several anti-terrorist press releases from islamic organisations that are ignored by mainstream press)

2. A minority of extremists (often only literate in Arabic) who believe the twisted version of the Q'uran handed to them by wannabe Imams.


A minority? You mean the mobs of monkeys dancing around chanting "Death to the Pope for saying Islam is violent!"


#7 Sep 18 2006 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
A minority? You mean the mobs of monkeys dancing around chanting "Death to the Pope for saying Islam is violent!"
Yep
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#8 Sep 18 2006 at 11:01 AM Rating: Excellent
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My main problem with the comparison is that many (I dare say perhaps most) of the colonists did not originally wish to break away from England but rather wished to remain as British subjects receiving equal treatment to their English counterparts. Even the first military actions were viewed as hopefully a sign that the colonists were serious and which would (again, hopefully) lead to a settled agreement with England. Of course, this isn't how it eventually played out but I don't see the Muslim actions today as analogous to that hope of restoration of the relationship on the basis of equal treatment.

Likewise, even after the war and full independence of our nation, we remained closely tied to the British Empire. Yes, there was that 1812 incident but there was never a call or desire to crush Britain or the British way of life. Again, I don't see this comparing to Islamic calls for a destruction of the Western lifestyle.

All of this, of course, disregards the obvious fact that America isn't the one keeping Middle Eastern oil wealth out of the hands of the average Muslim goatherder or cab driver.
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#9 Sep 18 2006 at 11:01 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The military solution of the United States (and others) is to quash the corrupt leadership.


not really. Regime change is seperate from The War On Terror.

Quote:
I know many Muslims who hate what is being done in a perverted misrepresentation of Islam


I'm sure that most do feel this way. I think that from the "extremist" point of view that it would mean that they have "sold out" to the evil capitalist west instead of remaining suffering with the rest of their bretheren trapped by poverty in their home countries. To them I'd say that religion is just an incidental part of the equation and that it has more to do with the simple fact that there is some seriously pent up social aggession going on.

In that light those Muslims who condemn the extremists would be like you said, similarly seen as the "Loyalists" were seen in the Colonies. Most of the Loyalists who were already firmly established through gernations simply wanted to keep their buisnesses going and support their families... wanting nothing to do with any war.

Quote:
2. A minority of extremists (often only literate in Arabic) who believe the twisted version of the Q'uran handed to them by wannabe Imams.


Politically the same as the soapboxers in the Americas standing around damning the British.


Quote:

What can they do? Draw and quarter their stupid neighbors who keep blowing up women and children. That would help.


HAve you evern been in school and everybody is picking on one fat or dirty girl? How often have you ever seen anybody stand up and defend those people rather than just join in?
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#10 Sep 18 2006 at 11:04 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
All of this, of course, disregards the obvious fact that America isn't the one keeping Middle Eastern oil wealth out of the hands of the average Muslim goatherder or cab driver.


I don't equate America to Great Britain in this case. I equate big buisnesses to Great Britain, no matter which country they are tied to.

Although arguably, big buisness could be synonymous with the American governemnt... but that's just me being a hippySmiley: wink





stoopid servers

Edited, Sep 18th 2006 at 4:30pm EDT by Kelvyquayo
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#11 Sep 18 2006 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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One example (in response to 9/11)

Quote:
In the Name of Allah, the Most Compassionate, the Most Merciful

OUR CATEGORICAL AND UNEQUIVOCAL CONDEMNATION OF CRIMES AGAINST HUMANITY

We at Al-Islam.org condemn the cowardly, terrorist acts committed in New York City, Washington, DC, and Pennsylvania on September 11, 2001. We are deeply saddened and outraged by the loss of innocent lives resulting from these gratuitous displays of violence, and we offer our heartfelt condolences to all those who will no longer see their loved ones come home. We pray to the Almighty for a speedy recovery of those who have been injured - physically and emotionally - as a result of these senseless acts of terror. And we urge American and international law enforcement agencies to help bring the perpetrators of these heinous crimes to justice.

Islam is a religion of tolerance and peace. In our sacred book, the Noble Qur'an, we are taught the value of innocent life in these words:

Al Q'uran wrote:
Whosoever kills a human being for other
than manslaughter or mischief in the land,
it shall be as if he has killed all humankind,
and whosoever saves the life of one,
it shall be as if he has saved the life of all humankind.
(Chapter 5, Verse 32)


There are thousands of more recent equivalents, often from local Masjids in USA, Europe and the Middle East, but editors are ignoring them.
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#12 Sep 18 2006 at 11:07 AM Rating: Decent
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Nobby wrote:
but editors are ignoring them.


Calls for peace do not incite the emotion that sells stories.
#13 Sep 18 2006 at 11:08 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
I don't equate America to Great Britain in this case. I equate big buisnesses to Great Britain, no matter which country they are tied to.
Well, in that case, I find the analogy to be worse yet. Much like comparing WWII Germany to "the war on terror", comparing a historical example involving a sovereign state to a nebulous concept such as "terror" or "big business" is always asking for trouble.

You can fight a bona fide conflict against a state. You can't do the same against a concept, only the states or people who embrace that concept.

Edited, Sep 18th 2006 at 3:10pm EDT by Jophiel
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#14 Sep 18 2006 at 11:13 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
any (I dare say perhaps most) of the colonists did not originally wish to break away from England but rather wished to remain as British subjects receiving equal treatment to their English counterparts


true. But it is also true that most Muslim commoners are not religious extremists and are content with living the way that they have been living.

Quote:

Again, I don't see this comparing to Islamic calls for a destruction of the Western lifestyle.


I see those calls as rhetoric spun by the leaders to keep their citizens distracted from having any ideas of blaming their own leaders.

To the commoner in an extremist group... I'd say the root of their concern is making their world better for their families.... as opposed to any real religious element. You know how "religious" people really are. Normally it's just kindling.. most people I'm sure don't think that deeply into it.


Quote:
comparing a historical example involving a sovereign state to a nebulous concept such as "terror" or "big business" is always asking for trouble.

You can fight a bona fide conflict against a state. You can't do the same against a concept, only the states or people who embrace that concept.



but you cannot expect people of varying cultures to view things in that way. In their mind comaparativly there is no difference, so we shouldn't deny that that particular view of it exists and is very relevant.
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#15 Sep 18 2006 at 11:24 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
true. But it is also true that most Muslim commoners are not religious extremists and are content with living the way that they have been living.
Even the Founding Fathers and firebrands of the revolution did not start out as saying "WTF? Stamp tax? That's it, we're starting our own nation." The early calls of the Revolutionary period were for representation within Parliament and equal treatment as "mainland" British subjects. I must have missed that phase in the modern Islamic terror movement.
Quote:
but you cannot expect people of varying cultures to view things in that way. In their mind comaparativly there is no difference, so we shouldn't deny that that particular view of it exists and is very relevant.
I'm not denying that there are people who sincerely believe in a "War on...", be it "...Terror" or "...Western immorality" or "...Big Business" or "...Zionism" or whichever.

I do, however, believe that you can not compare those concepts adequately in any historical context to an actual state with borders, territory, a government and true army, etc.
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#16 Sep 18 2006 at 11:24 AM Rating: Decent
So...... We should give the extremists untaxed tea?
#17 Sep 18 2006 at 11:29 AM Rating: Decent
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Kelvyquayo wrote:
What can they do? Draw and quarter their stupid neighbors who keep blowing up women and children. That would help.


HAve you evern been in school and everybody is picking on one fat or dirty girl? How often have you ever seen anybody stand up and defend those people rather than just join in?
[/quote]

Oh...so it would be socially undesirable. Don't want to make any look like a dork. Geez, my bad.
#18 Sep 18 2006 at 11:32 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
The early calls of the Revolutionary period were for representation within Parliament and equal treatment as "mainland" British subjects. I must have missed that phase in the modern Islamic terror movement.


yes, but the whole movement is people by individuals that are tired of living the way that they are living. They see the world outside and hate it because they are not a part of it. They see the palaces of their rulers and hate and fear them.

in this comparison "representation within Parliament and equal treatment as "mainland" British subjects" would be their desire for a batter life, not having their countries exploited by richer countries, while they reap no benefits, whereas the "citizens of the capitalist empire nebulous entity" would be people like us, sitting here with our Hollywoods and SUVs, all at the percieved expense of the common working Arab/Persian whoever..
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#19 Sep 18 2006 at 11:32 AM Rating: Excellent
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Kelv wrote:
HAve you evern been in school and everybody is picking on one fat or dirty girl? How often have you ever seen anybody stand up and defend those people rather than just join in?
I thought we were working on the premise that the moderates are the majority and the extremists were a strict minority.
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#20 Sep 18 2006 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Kelv wrote:
HAve you evern been in school and everybody is picking on one fat or dirty girl? How often have you ever seen anybody stand up and defend those people rather than just join in?
I thought we were working on the premise that the moderates are the majority and the extremists were a strict minority.


social microcosms prevail.


and I think in Arabic "dork" and "infidel" are pretty similar.

Edited, Sep 18th 2006 at 3:34pm EDT by Kelvyquayo
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#21 Sep 18 2006 at 11:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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I don't buy it.

If we are to believe that the moderates are in the great majority, then I can't accept an analogy where a poor, lone moderate is silenced by the crowd of extremists picking on the fat American girl.

If I was to go to class this week and start vocally insulting one of my classmates, I'd get called a fucktard and told to shut the hell up. The other 25 people wouldn't just join in on my minority opinion.
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#22 Sep 18 2006 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
I don't buy it.

If we are to believe that the moderates are in the great majority, then I can't accept an analogy where a poor, lone moderate is silenced by the crowd of extremists picking on the fat American girl.

If I was to go to class this week and start vocally insulting one of my classmates, I'd get called a fucktard and told to shut the hell up. The other 25 people wouldn't just join in on my minority opinion.
Commercial media is your answer.

News Agencies want emotive coverage, and who's going to sit down at 8pm to watch ABC's coverage of evening prayer or a muslim 'bring and buy'?

(Last year I went to the local mosque's jumble sale in aid of Katrina Victims and earlier this year they had a huge sports event for Sport Relief)

Don't get Naive on me there Joph
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#23 Sep 18 2006 at 11:49 AM Rating: Decent
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Quote:
the brainwashed extremist masses are a huge part of the problem. They believe everything their leadership tells them, expecting great riches and rewards when they die. They blindly follow their religious leaders without question.


Sorr, you lost me for a minute there. Do you mean these guys? or these ones?
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#24 Sep 18 2006 at 11:49 AM Rating: Excellent
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The lack of Katrina rummage sale news coverage is what keeps the bulk of Pakistan from decrying the nutjobs burning effigies of the Pope or firebombing Orthodox (!) Christian churches?

Edited, Sep 18th 2006 at 3:50pm EDT by Jophiel
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#25 Sep 18 2006 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Kelv wrote:
HAve you evern been in school and everybody is picking on one fat or dirty girl? How often have you ever seen anybody stand up and defend those people rather than just join in?
I thought we were working on the premise that the moderates are the majority and the extremists were a strict minority.


That and the bully usually doesn't chop the head off of your mother and sister.

Nobby wrote:
Commercial media is your answer.

News Agencies want emotive coverage, and who's going to sit down at 8pm to watch ABC's coverage of evening prayer or a muslim 'bring and buy'?


So...biased media? Who woulda guessed?
#26 Sep 18 2006 at 11:57 AM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
The lack of Katrina rummage sale news coverage is what keeps the bulk of Pakistan from decrying the nutjobs burning effigies of the Pope or firebombing Orthodox (!) Christian churches?
Err, yeah.

I'm jet-lagged, grumpy (No sign of my luggage, so I've potentially lost all the gifts me and DF bought for my kids, along with my favoUrite shirts, several pairs of expensive jeans, my extensive range of male beauty products, the cufflinks my Dad gave me for my 21st, a couple of credit cards, and worst of all, my lucky underpants), and I've just heard my neighboUr (muslim) tell me that his six year old daughter has been spat at again.
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