I'm apologizing for what now? :: Free Realms

#56 Sep 19 2006 at 8:00 AM Rating: Decent

Sage

7,735 posts

Abadd wrote:

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The emperor's views about Islam were ill-informed and frankly bigoted.

Whoa hey big time condemnation of violence.

If you're gonna take cut-paste one line that you like, out of two articles, then please fuck off.

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Can you find me continual days of lab bombings? A week of vocal death threats? Attacks on stores and businesses that span all across Europe or America?

I agree I can't find exactly similar exemples in the West. We don't care about religion enough, and we are too well-educated.

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at the end of the day, they'd better figure it the hell out because if they can't control the extremists then it's just going to end badly for them.

Not just for them, unfortunately.

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Maybe next election cycle, the people in Iran, Palestine and Lebanon should think harder before voting extremist elements into power.

Oh, give me a break. Iran?? Since when did they vote for the Ayattollahs? When they elected a reformist, he was struck down by the Religious Council every time he tried to pass a moderate law. When he tried to get re-elected, they barred most of his MPs from standing. Please don't tell me you think Iran is a democracy...

As for Lebanon and Palestine, they vote for domestic issues, it's a bit easy to criticise from where we stand. Ever thought of what it's like to be born in a refugee camp? To live in a non-state entity all your life? To have the few basic services availably provided by a sole religious group? And then you're surprised they vote for them? Anyway, most people are saying hamas will lose the next election. They thought Hamas would be less corrupt than Fatah, and they were wrong.

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Is the answer to allow the extreme elements control to do as they please and continue to erode relations with the west and make all of Islam look like fanatical cutthroats because Akhmed Average won't step up? Because that's what's going on

This is an internal struggle within Islam. It goes on everyday. Moderate Vs Extremists. People who take a literal view of the Holy text, against people who think it should be interpretted.

They are fighting. I'm sorry you don't hear the debate. And I'm sorry you think it's not going fast enough. But it is going on. It's not an easy fight, especially when we continuously give the extremists ammunition.

You speak of "eroding relations" with the West. Aren't the Pope's comment and the Danish cartoons eroding relations with Islam? Wasn't Iraq, Guanta, Abu, eroding relations with Islam?

Come on. You guys get in hissy fit because some angry mobs are chanting nasty songs. Yet, when we torture random Muslims, invade countries, print cartoon that call Muhamed a terrorist or a pedophile, it's nothing to do with us.

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make all of Islam look like fanatical cutthroats

Isn't this just the media? because I, for one, don't feel that like that. I work with Muslim colleagues that don't chant death threats. I play football with Muslims who don't think the whole world should be a caliphate. These people are the vast majority.

So how do you end up getting this impression of Islam as being fanatical?

One last thing. In France, we have 5 million Muslims. There are maybe 3-4 million in the UK, if not more. If 99.9% were not decent, law-abiding, calm, peace-loving citiznes, we would not be living in a free society anymore. There would be terorists attacks everyday. We would live in constant fear of being killed or nuke.

In the same vein, if more than 0.01% of Muslims around the world were actually like the guys you see on TV, there would be a World War III. Not in some distant country, but right here on our doorstep.

I'm sorry that seeing these images of TV gives you that impression of Muslims and Islam.

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#57 Sep 19 2006 at 8:18 AM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

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Not just for them, unfortunately

Which is exactly my point. Every attack on the west is going to lead to more invasions, more occupations, more cruise missiles fired from the Gulf into Muslim cities. That's just a cold reality.

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You speak of "eroding relations" with the West. Aren't the Pope's comment and the Danish cartoons eroding relations with Islam? Wasn't Iraq, Guanta, Abu, eroding relations with Islam?

Come on. You guys get in hissy fit because some angry mobs are chanting nasty songs. Yet, when we torture random Muslims, invade countries, print cartoon that call Muhamed a terrorist or a @#%^phile, it's nothing to do with us.

You obviously haven't been reading my comments here for the past six years.

In fact, my ire stems directly from the fact that I have defended moderate Islam for years and, while I certainly acknowledge that it's not as if I'm doing Islam any great favors by posting here, I'm feeling disgusted with the fact that the fanatical elements are just as prevalent, if not more so, today than they were five, ten or twenty years ago.

And equating firebombing and murders to "chanting nasty songs" is just as disingenious as the retards who called Abu Ghraid a "fraterinity prank".

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Isn't this just the media? because I, for one, don't feel that like that. I work with Muslim colleagues that don't chant death threats. I play football with Muslims who don't think the whole world should be a caliphate. These people are the vast majority.

So how do you end up getting this impression of Islam as being fanatical?

Again, you're having trouble comprehending. I was speaking about the future of Islam if the moderates continue to allow the extermists to paint the face of Islam with their actions.

Edited, Sep 19th 2006 at 12:20pm EDT by Jophiel

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#58 Sep 19 2006 at 8:20 AM Rating: Decent

Sage

7,735 posts

Having said all this, I do agree that the question of how moderate Muslims should fight against extremist ones is fascinating and crucial.

I don't think there is a simple answer. I don't think saying Akhmed average should sort it out is sufficient either. Nor reasonable.

I'll use him again, but Tariq Ramadan is a quite a prominent moderate Mulsim that argues for an interpretation of the Koran that allows Muslims to propser and intergrate in Western Societies. He was of the son of the founder of the Muslim Brotherhood (or his brother, or something) so that gives some clout in teh Muslim world. In the UK, in France, and on Al-Jazeera, they often have him on TV to debate against "crazy Muslims". It's very intresting stuff. And it's not an easy task.

It's a vital question, there's no doubt about it.

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#59 Sep 19 2006 at 8:25 AM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

RedPhoenixxxxxx wrote:

I don't think there is a simple answer. I don't think saying Akhmed average should sort it out is sufficient either. Nor reasonable.

Again, who else? If not the moderate Muslim citizens and the moderate Islamic clergy then who?

It's absolutely essential that they do it because do you know what the other option is? Western occupation to eliminate the threat by force. Which probably isn't going to work but I can't think of an option (C) and that's why option (A) is the only real choice.

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#60 Sep 19 2006 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent

Sage

7,735 posts

Jophiel wrote:

Which is exactly my point. Every attack on the west is going to lead to more invasions, more occupations, more cruise missiles fired from the Gulf into Muslim cities. That's just a cold reality.

I completely agree. And we aren't even taken nukes into consideration. So yes, vital subject for sure.

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You obviously haven't been reading my comments here for the past six years.

I have for the past two years, and I admit I was surprised you were taking this point of view in this thread.

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In fact, my ire stems directly from the fact that I have defended moderate Islam for years and, while I certainly acknowledge that it's not as if I'm doing Islam any great favors by posting here, I'm feeling disgusted with the fact that the fanatical elements are just as prevalent, if not more so, today than they were five, ten or twenty years ago.

But I understand better now.

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And equating firebombing and murders to "chanting nasty songs" is just as disingenious as the retards who called Abu Ghraid a "fraterinity prank".

I didn't know there had been murders over this Pope story, and if there have been, then of course it's more than "chanting nasty songs".

Burning effigies, flag burning, and nast chants, which is I've mostly seen on TV, however, i don't find that especially shocking or troubling. Not in those countries where half the population has an AK at home.

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Again, you're having trouble comprehending. I was speaking about the future of Islam if the moderates continue to allow the extermists to paint the face of Islam with their actions.

Well then I completely agree that it's a real danger for moderate muslims. And for us.

But I think it's hypocritical to say that Muslims should sort it out on their own. It's their problem, but it's also our problem. You can't do nothing at all about an issue, and then complain about it.

And unfortunately, we're not doing "nothing at all". In many ways, we're making it worse by giving those fanatics some ammunitions with stupid foreign policy and lack of intervention where it matters.

We suck at PR on this issue. At the end of the day, it's what it will come down to. Hearts and minds. Why do we never trumpet the fact we intervened in Kosovo when Muslims were being killed by Christians? Why do we not sort out Israel/palestine once and for all? Why do we say nothing about Russia destroying Chechnya? All these things matter. We can't just go about our business as if it didn't, and then get surprised when extremists have won the propaganda war.

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#61 Sep 19 2006 at 8:51 AM Rating: Good

Kakar

Sage

6,760 posts

Not to completely derail the direction this thread took, but to go back to the beginning, I found this article on Fark that addresses the Pope's comments, and it made me think of this thread.

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Forgive and move on, NU says

Ary Hermawan, The Jakarta Post, Jakarta

Nadhlatul Ulama chairman Hasyim Muzadi called on Indonesian Muslims on Monday to accept Pope Benedict XVI's apology for offending Muslims, saying it was "an obligation" according to Islamic teachings.

"As long as it (the Pope's remarks) was made out of negligence, we are obliged to accept the apology," Hasyim said on the sidelines of a religious leaders conference at the NU office.

The conference, held by the Indonesian Conference for Religion and Peace (ICRP), was also addressed by Cardinal Julius Darmaatmadja of the Indonesian Bishops Conference (KWI).

Hasyim said the regret was "enough" and further resentment from the Muslims would only justify the pope's statement. "If the rage continues, perhaps what the pope said is true," he said.

And by the way PsiChi, "claiming" pages is so OOT. Smiley: oyvey

Just sayin'

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Some people are like slinkies, they aren't really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.

#62 Sep 19 2006 at 8:57 AM Rating: Excellent

Jophiel

Liberal Conspiracy

TILT

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But I think it's hypocritical to say that Muslims should sort it out on their own. It's their problem, but it's also our problem. You can't do nothing at all about an issue, and then complain about it.

By your own admission, this is an internal issue and struggle. Maybe there needs to be more influence from Western Muslims. Maybe there already is. I'm not a scholar on the subject. But I don't see a whole lot of room for Western (read: Christian) influence on it aside from resolving any and all political matters to the full satisfaction of the Muslim factions and that just isn't going to happen for numerous reasons. Ultimately, the only people who can truely direct the course of moderate Islam are the moderate Muslims. And, unfortunately, the clock is ticking on them to change its direction.

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Belkira wrote:

Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.

#63 Sep 19 2006 at 9:08 AM Rating: Decent

Sage

7,735 posts

Jophiel wrote:

But I don't see a whole lot of room for Western (read: Christian) influence on it aside from resolving any and all political matters to the full satisfaction of the Muslim factions and that just isn't going to happen for numerous reasons.

I disagree on that. Western is not equal to Christian, even in Muslim eyes. And it's not about giving in entirely to all their crazy demands. Of course not. It's about not having double-standards in international relations. Everything in IR is about cost/benefits. We're just not seeing this clearly at the moment.

To be honest, there is a lot of room for Western involvement, both Mulsim and not, in all this. We have so much to lose if the extremist win, and so much to gain if the moderate ones wins, that we can't stay idle, cross our fingers, and hope for the best. I won't give you the quote about all that evil needs is for good people to do nothing bla bal...

However, there is also a lot of room in my stomach for alcohol, so I'm going out now.

I'm sure this'll come back sooner or later anyway ;-)

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#64 Sep 19 2006 at 1:53 PM Rating: Good

__DEL__1690762604546

Sage

16,160 posts

"We will break up the cross, spill the liquor and impose head tax..." --Sociopathic towelheads

/pats his crotch
Nah, no tax, Abdul, you can suck my d1ck duty-free.

Totem

#65 Sep 20 2006 at 1:11 AM Rating: Decent

Sage

7,735 posts

Totem wrote:

/pats his crotch
Nah, no tax, Abdul, you can suck my d1ck duty-free.
Totem

Totem, stop being so ghey. Bearded old Arabs sucking your d1ck? Is that what it has come down to?

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#66 Sep 20 2006 at 5:30 AM Rating: Decent

__DEL__1591874286457

1,212 posts

It doesnt matter that the pope gets death threats, he only has 5~ years left in him anyways.

#67 Sep 20 2006 at 5:32 AM Rating: Excellent

__DEL__1701044194859

Guru

12,735 posts

100% off topic, but when I first read the thread title, I thought that Joph and Flea had an arguement. I had this sad "Oh no..." look on my face as I was graced with a political thread. Smiley: laugh

Thank the Gods I'm a moran; I'd hate to participate in these threads. Smiley: lol

#68 Sep 20 2006 at 7:28 PM Rating: Decent

paulsol

Sage

4,158 posts

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Thank the Gods I'm a moran; I'd hate to participate in these threads.

You dont know what your missing!!

And being a moran doesnt disqualify you. Or anyone else...

/ducks Smiley: grin

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#69 Sep 21 2006 at 4:47 AM Rating: Good

__DEL__1673223399434

Sage

1,661 posts

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/ducks

They go "quack quack"!

#70 Sep 21 2006 at 6:32 AM Rating: Good

__DEL__1695601009560

Guru

18,463 posts

Sir Exodus, Eater of Cheese wrote:

100% off topic, but when I first read the thread title, I thought that Joph and Flea had an arguement. I had this sad "Oh no..." look on my face as I was graced with a political thread. Smiley: laugh

Ha! I should hope not!

#71 Sep 21 2006 at 4:11 PM Rating: Decent

__DEL__1591801081291

2,473 posts

Professor CrescentFresh wrote:

Matjlav wrote:

{I am an cnut.}

Good thing you auto-translated that one.

Oh, I'm no cnut. I hate those cnuts (such as my father) that say that we should make all our laws based on the Bible and that Christianity is somehow being oppressed.

For instance, I read the back of a book that my dad was reading called "Persecution." Get this: The synopsis was "a call ... to defend the religious freedom envisioned and practiced by the founders." That made me lmfao. They were talking about the ever-used inaccuracy of "illegalizing prayer in public schools"... and the cases of schools that have punished children for wearing religious symbols (just because one school off in Nebraska did it one time doesn't mean the whole damn country is warring against Christianity).

Apparently, unless Christianity is the favored religion endorsed by the government, we're being persecuted. I am a practicing Christian, but this stuff is just idiocy.

But I digress; in my original post, I was basically just saying what the whole general idea of this thread is.

Edited, Sep 21st 2006 at 8:15pm EDT by Matjlav