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#1 Aug 30 2006 at 11:50 AM Rating: Excellent
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Rumsfeld Compares War Critics To **** Appeasers
The Fascist Tribune wrote:
WASHINGTON -- Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld unleashed one of the Bush administration's most caustic assaults yet on war critics Tuesday, comparing such critics to ****-era appeasers and ramping up the GOP election-year attack against Democrats over national security.

The verbal broadside is part of an emerging pattern in which President Bush, attempting to transform the war into a winning election theme for the Republican Party, is using surrogates to deliver the most stinging criticisms of Democrats while sticking to milder -- though no less disparaging -- rhetoric on the war himself.

Speaking to the American Legion's annual convention in Salt Lake City, Rumsfeld warned against "moral and intellectual confusion." He said that "some seem not to have learned history's lessons" as the nation confronts new threats. He did not mention any names.

"It seems that in some quarters, there is more of a focus on dividing our country than acting with unity against the gathering threats."

Rumsfeld recited what he called the lessons of history, including the failure to confront Adolf Hitler in the 1930s. He quoted Winston Churchill as observing that trying to accommodate Hitler was "a bit like feeding a crocodile, hoping it would eat you last."
Well, heck! All we now is for someone to pinpoint who this new Hitler is so we can go to war with him instead of this nebulous "War on Terror" that has no end. That's something I could get behind. Be better than that time Roosevelt declared the never-ending War on Fascism. Remember that? Heck, I'll even settle for a state. I mean, we had the Soviet Union in the Cold War, can we get a single major player in this war and go to war with them?

Or, if not a leader in the Terror front, can we get a name for the "war" in Iraq? I know we'll lose the war if we leave and this is just like appeasing Hitler, so if someone can tell me who Iraq's Hitler is, I'd really appreciate it. That way we can kill him and go home. It obviously wasn't Saddam, after all otherwise we wouldn't need to make these comparisons.

Smiley: dubious
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#2 Aug 30 2006 at 11:53 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
"It seems that in some quarters, there is more of a focus on dividing our country than acting with unity against the gathering threats."


That knife cuts both ways, dunnit?
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#3 Aug 30 2006 at 11:57 AM Rating: Decent
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*****. I *hate* *****!
#4 Aug 30 2006 at 12:00 PM Rating: Decent
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One of the most caustic assaults?

Give me a f'ucking break. This story is a joke.
#5 Aug 30 2006 at 12:02 PM Rating: Excellent
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Neph can think of much nastier things Rumsfeld has said! Smiley: grin
Some CNN story wrote:
Dennis Ross, a Mideast adviser to both the first Bush and Clinton administrations and now the director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, said he would have chosen different words.

"The `war on terror' has always been a misnomer, because terrorism is an instrument, it's not an ideology. So I would always have preferred it to be called the `war with radical Islam,' not with Islam but with `radical Islam,"' Ross said.

Why even mention the religion? "Because that's who they are," Ross said. "Fascism had a certain definition. Whether they meet this or not, one thing is clear: They're radical. They represent a completely radical and intolerant interpretation of Islam."

While "fascism" once referred to the rigid nationalistic one-party dictatorship first instituted in Italy, it has "been used very loosely in all kinds of ways for a long time," said Wayne Fields, a specialist in presidential rhetoric at Washington University in St. Louis.

"Typically, the Bush administration finds its vocabulary someplace in the middle ground of popular culture. It seems to me that they're trying to find something that resonates, without any effort to really define what they mean," Fields said.
Werd.
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#6 Aug 30 2006 at 12:07 PM Rating: Good
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I decided to read up on the **** supporters he was comparing them to, I found an interesting read on the historical subject here

Quote:
...The America First Committee, created in September 1940, was not only against entry into the war. It also opposed aid. Its program was simple. Since the United States, if properly armed, was impregnable against German attack, there was no reason to help England. Aid would not only fatally weaken America‘s own defenses. It would also draw the country into the conflict.[2] The leaders of the AFC claimed they were motivated by concern for American lives. For some, this was no doubt true. For others, humanitarian rhetoric hid different motives. Many joined the AFC as a way of attacking President Roosevelt and the New Deal. Still others had more sinister reasons. The evolution of the America First movement in the eighteen months of debate preceding Pearl Harbor revealed xenophobic and anti-Semitic sentiment both within the AFC leadership, and among its supporters. This study of the America First Committee is thus a cautionary tale. It is a reminder that anti-war movements are not always, or entirely, the humanitarian movements their supporters claim them to be. But it is also a moral tale, asking an important question in international relations - that of what one democratic nation owes another in times of mortal danger....


Edited, Aug 30th 2006 at 1:07pm EDT by fhrugby
#7 Aug 30 2006 at 12:50 PM Rating: Decent
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Speaking to the American Legion's annual convention in Salt Lake City, Rumsfeld warned against "moral and intellectual confusion."
He is doing a great job of preventing that.. Smiley: oyvey
#8 Aug 30 2006 at 1:17 PM Rating: Good
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NephthysWanderer the Charming wrote:
One of the most caustic assaults?

Give me a f'ucking break. This story is a joke.
You're right. The one where they suggest Ned Lamont was working for the greater good of Al Queda was much, much worse! Smiley: laugh
#9 Aug 30 2006 at 2:15 PM Rating: Decent
Bush Administration: Hey Dems you are poo-poo heads!
Dems everywhere: uhhhh.......



Yeah this is basically what I see.
#10 Aug 30 2006 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
Reductio ad Hitlerum FTL Smiley: oyvey
#11 Aug 30 2006 at 2:45 PM Rating: Good
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Of course, if situations were reversed, and it was a Dem making the exact same comments (like Kerry for example), you'd all be praising his intellectualism and chatting about how he must be right since he quoted Churchill.
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#12 Aug 30 2006 at 2:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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If you can find a time where I ever said there was a valid strong comparison to be made between Iraq and World War II, please link to it now so I may publically recant.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#13 Aug 30 2006 at 3:15 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
Of course, if situations were reversed, and it was a Dem making the exact same comments (like Kerry for example), you'd all be praising his intellectualism and chatting about how he must be right since he quoted Churchill.











ZOMG Rumsfeld has a superior intelligence, and he has to be right since he quoted Churchill!



Feel better? Honestly though when name calling from either side ensues, I find it to be insipid.
#14 Aug 30 2006 at 3:17 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
If you can find a time where I ever said there was a valid strong comparison to be made between Iraq and World War II, please link to it now so I may publically recant.


Of course not. Because it was a Republican who lead us into Iraq.

I'm suggesting that had it been a Dem instead, and had he come under the exact same criticism, and had he responded with the exact same quote from Churchill that Rumsfeld used, the reactions from most of the posters in this thread would have been entirely different.

And if you stop and really think about it, I think you'll realize that it's true. Can you honestly say that if a Dem president had taken the *exact* same actions in Iraq that Bush has that you'd view him as negatively as you view Bush? You don't have to answer here, but I'd like you to spend some time really thinking about it.

Edited, Aug 30th 2006 at 4:19pm EDT by gbaji
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#15 Aug 30 2006 at 3:24 PM Rating: Good
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Rimesume the Shady wrote:
Feel better? Honestly though when name calling from either side ensues, I find it to be insipid.


Show me where Rumsfeld called anyone names please.

He didn't use the word "****". The article writer did.

But hey! Newspaper writers don't tailor their words to invoke the greatest emotional response possible, right? That's just crazy talk!
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#16 Aug 30 2006 at 3:32 PM Rating: Decent
gbaji wrote:
But hey! Newspaper writers don't tailor their words to invoke the greatest emotional response possible, right? That's just crazy talk!




Apparently Rumsfeld wouldn't either. Also I didn't mean direct name calling but more implied name calling.
#17 Aug 30 2006 at 3:35 PM Rating: Decent
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Rimesume the Shady wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But hey! Newspaper writers don't tailor their words to invoke the greatest emotional response possible, right? That's just crazy talk!




Apparently Rumsfeld wouldn't either. Also I didn't mean direct name calling but more implied name calling.


But according to Republicans, it is okay to imply something to the general public, since it is just an implication and shold have no effect. Take the whole "Iraq and 9/11" implication for example. It was perfectly fine when Bush said there was no connection last week, since he only implied it to gain public support.
#18 Aug 30 2006 at 3:36 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
I'm suggesting that had it been a Dem instead, and had he come under the exact same criticism, and had he responded with the exact same quote from Churchill that Rumsfeld used, the reactions from most of the posters in this thread would have been entirely different.
And you're basing this off of what, exactly? Because you think so?
Quote:
And if you stop and really think about it, I think you'll realize that it's true. Can you honestly say that if a Dem president had taken the *exact* same actions in Iraq that Bush has that you'd view him as negatively as you view Bush? You don't have to answer here, but I'd like you to spend some time really thinking about it.
I'd like you to spend some time formulating a defense for assuming what I'd say or think that goes beyond "You know it's true."
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#19 Aug 30 2006 at 3:38 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
And if you stop and really think about it, I think you'll realize that it's true. Can you honestly say that if a Dem president had taken the *exact* same actions in Iraq that Bush has that you'd view him as negatively as you view Bush? You don't have to answer here, but I'd like you to spend some time really thinking about it.


I would, but that's just because I don't trust the Democrats either. It's why I registered Green, not only is it a nice color, but at least when I vote, it's obvious they're not accomplishing anything!
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#20 Aug 30 2006 at 3:39 PM Rating: Good
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Rimesume the Shady wrote:
gbaji wrote:
But hey! Newspaper writers don't tailor their words to invoke the greatest emotional response possible, right? That's just crazy talk!




Apparently Rumsfeld wouldn't either. Also I didn't mean direct name calling but more implied name calling.


He said exactly what he said. That some people are taking a position that to him represents not learning from history. The lesson in this case is that appeasement of an enemy only emboldens the enemy and makes him harder to deal with later on. The specific example he gave of this was to quote Churchill in reference to the European reaction to growing German and Italian power grabs.

If you want to argue he's wrong, then by all means explain to me how a policy of dealing with terrorist groups via repeated negotiation and giving them apparently infinite chances (I'm talking specifically to the Hezbollah result in Lebanon) is markedly different from that same policy when applied to Germany in the 30s.


He's not comparing anyone to **** appeasers. He's saying that the practice of appeasement itself is a flawed one, regardless of *who* you are appeasing. Can you understand that there's a difference between a comparison of methodology and the specifics of the situations themselves? Or is that just too complex, and it's easier to just knee-jerk react to the word **** in the article and fly off the handle?
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#21 Aug 30 2006 at 3:47 PM Rating: Excellent
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Danalog the Vengeful Programmer wrote:
I would, but that's just because I don't trust the Democrats either. It's why I registered Green, not only is it a nice color, but at least when I vote, it's obvious they're not accomplishing anything!
I didn't register Green but I'd have about the same opinion.

Gbaji is saying that my displeasure for the "war" in Iraq is drawn from purely partisan waters. And that, had it been Gore who invaded Iraq in 2003 under the same pretenses and executed the war in the same manner, leading to Kerry defending it today with the same analogy, I'd be happy to applaud it. Because it'd be Democrats running it so all of my objections about how the war was handled and the continuing resistance and lack of strategy and disingenious comparisons to WWII would vanish.

That's quite the insulting accusation to make and I'm interested to know what Gbaji is basing it upon.
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#22 Aug 30 2006 at 3:48 PM Rating: Decent
Off topic, but I thought it was funny. I probally shouldnt admit to this but my mother asked the other day, "What's a blue state?". Smiley: frown
#23 Aug 30 2006 at 3:56 PM Rating: Good
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#24 Aug 30 2006 at 3:58 PM Rating: Decent
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The seal on the banner takes the cake.
#25 Aug 30 2006 at 3:58 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
That's quite the insulting accusation to make and I'm interested to know what Gbaji is basing it upon.
I'm thinking it's based purely on projection. Since he's a deep-throater when it comes to the party line, he just automatically assumed you like to swallow.
#26 Aug 30 2006 at 4:26 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Gbaji is saying that my displeasure for the "war" in Iraq is drawn from purely partisan waters. And that, had it been Gore who invaded Iraq in 2003 under the same pretenses and executed the war in the same manner, leading to Kerry defending it today with the same analogy, I'd be happy to applaud it. Because it'd be Democrats running it so all of my objections about how the war was handled and the continuing resistance and lack of strategy and disingenious comparisons to WWII would vanish.

Well in general terms at least I bet there would still be opposition to the war, but there would be far fewer voices and the sentiments would be far less acrimonious.
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