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A suggestion to make the world a better place (for EG)Follow

#1 Aug 14 2006 at 6:14 AM Rating: Decent
After reading EG's post on unpopular ideas that would change things for the better, here the first one of my own suggestions.


Legalise all drugs:


This one is definately not a vote winner, and yet it's bound to happen one day. I'm referring to drugs like cocaine, cannabis, ecstasy, etc... What we call recreational drugs.

The (illegal) drug industry is the biggest in the world after the arms trade. It is an industry worth hundreds of billions of dollars. And it's all in the hands of criminals. It fuels wars, conflicts and terrorism. It is the cause of so much instability in the world, and funds guerrila groups and private armies from Afghanistan, to Columbia, to the block of some run-down street.

The "war on drugs" costs billions/year, and yet produces no result whatsoever. These drugs are ever-more available, and their cost is ever-decreasing.

The fact it is such an illegal industry means that the drugs are of poor quality, often cut with rat poison or washing powder, leading to the death of many addicts.

The fact it is in the hands of criminals also pushes them to try to sell harder stuff. Why have a client on cannabis when you could tempt him with cocaine?

The drug laws are also a sham. Sending drug users to prison is ridiculous. All it does is turn them into proper, professional criminals.

Drug-addiction is a health problem, not a crimimnal one. If the addict commits a crime (mugging, burglary, etc...) then its a different story, and a criminal one. But an addict that funds his addiction legally (through a job), should not be a criminal. He should not go to jail, but to a rehab center. Some will say it is incredibly expensive to fund health clinics for alld rug-addicts. And it's true.


This is another reason why drugs should be legalised, and their production and distribution nationalised.

Now, I'm not advocating selling cocaine over the counter in supermarkets. Obvisusly,. There has to be strict regulations, and different regimes for different dfrugs.


Cocaine and heroin should be sold by the local doctor, who would keep a health record of his patient. The patient should be sent to compulsory rehab clinics, and if unemployed, made to particiapte in community projects (cleaning up the parks, repainting the neighbourhood, whatever..) to help his integration in society. The patient wont want illegal heroin, since it will be much more expensive, and much less clean than the legal one. And since he willbe monitored, it will be much easier to rehabilitate him.

Cannabis and ecstasy should be sold in special shops, with limited amounts to be kept in and sold, and with stict ID checks. In the same way, records of who buys what/when should be kept. The THC is skunk should be kept under 15%. Users wont buy illegal drugs for the same reason: poor quality, poor price, and dangerous.


All this would enable the governemnt to make loads of money that can be reinvested in mental health care to rehabilitate those people.

The criminals involved would go broke extremely quickly, thereby reducing their overall power.

Countries like Morocco and Columbia could have a legal coca/cannabis prodcution, improving their gdp.

The prisons would empty. Crime would go down.


All this of course, has to be done with heavy and comprehensive education from a young age, with strong and effective rehabilitations programs, and with heavier prison sentences for illegal dealers.

It is not a vote-winner. It is not "moralistic".

And yet, it is time we wake up to the fact that people take recreational drugs. That no amount of prison will stop them from it. That the only ones benefiting from this are the criminal gangs. And that the current strategy is completely inefficient and incredibly expensive.
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#2 Aug 14 2006 at 8:04 AM Rating: Decent
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Yeah, I can't wait until my 6 year old has unfettered access to drugs through the older kids in the neighborhood!

My 15 year old will have an even easier time getting them since she's in high school - 18 year old seniors will be sure to buy for the younger kids! This will be great! Get the drugs in their hands faster and easier during those young formative years when they can do the most damage!

Oh, wait, that will never happen, because we all know that kids will act totally respsonsibly about this easy access to formerly un-attainable drugs.

Great idea RP!
#3 Aug 14 2006 at 8:22 AM Rating: Good
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KriegsmaschineVondentoten wrote:
Oh, wait, that will never happen, because we all know that kids will act totally respsonsibly about this easy access to formerly un-attainable drugs.


You don't get out much, do you?
#4 Aug 14 2006 at 8:26 AM Rating: Excellent
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You have no idea how bad an idea that would be.

Drugs like Heroin and Cocaine can seriously f*ck you up, we are talking real long term mental and physical problems including but not limited too:-

Heroin:

Insomnia, Mental functioning becomes clouded due to the depression of the central nervous system. Long-term effects of heroin appear after repeated use for some period of time. Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, and liver disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health condition of the abuser, as well as from heroin’s depressing effects on respiration.
"Heroin abuse during pregnancy and its many associated environmental factors (e.g., lack of prenatal care) have been associated with adverse consequences including low birth weight, an important risk factor for later developmental delay."

Source: National Institute on Drug Abuse, InfoFacts: Heroin (Rockville, MD: US Department of Health and Human Services), from the web at http://www.nida.nih.gov/infofacts/heroin.html last accessed January 9, 2006.

Cocaine:

Cocaine abuse also has multiple physical health consequences. It is associated with a lifetime risk of heart attack that is seven times that of non-users. During the hour after cocaine is used, heart attack risk rises 24-fold.

Side effects from chronic smoking of cocaine include chest pain, lung trauma, shortness of breath, sore throat, hoarse voice, dyspnea, and an aching, flu-like syndrome. A common misconception is that the smoking of cocaine breaks down tooth enamel and causes tooth decay. In addition, cocaine often causes involuntary tooth grinding, known as bruxism, which can deteriorate tooth enamel and lead to gingivitis[citation needed].

Chronic intranasal usage can degrade the cartilage separating the nostrils (the septum nasi), leading eventually to its complete disappearance. Due to the absorption of the cocaine from cocaine hydrochloride, the remaining hydrochloride forms a dilute hydrochloric acid.[1]

Cocaine may also greatly increase this risk of developing rare autoimmune or connective tissue diseases such as lupus, Goodpasture's disease, vasculitis, glomerulonephritis and other diseases.

There have been published studies reporting that cocaine causes changes in the frontal lobe of the brain. The full extent of possible brain deterioration from cocaine use is not known.

Speed:Short-term physiological effects include decreased appetite, increased stamina and physical energy, increased sexual drive/response, involuntary bodily movements, increased perspiration, hyperactivity, jitteriness, nausea, itchy, blotchy or greasy skin, increased heart rate, irregular heart rate, increased blood pressure, and headaches. Fatigue can often follow the dose's period of effectiveness. Overdose can be treated with chlorpromazine.

Long-term abuse or overdose effects can include tremor, restlessness, changed sleep patterns, poor skin condition, hyperreflexia, tachypnea, gastrointestinal narrowing, and weakened immune system. Fatigue and depression can follow the excitement stage. Erectile dysfunction, heart problems, stroke, and liver, kidney and lung damage can result from prolonged use. When snorted, amphetamine can lead to a deterioration of the lining of the nostrils.

These things aren't illegal for the sake of it, they are illegal because the wide use of them has serious consequenses both of the health and socieo-ecconomic well being of society.

#5 Aug 14 2006 at 8:30 AM Rating: Decent
First, if your kid wants drugs today, he will get them. Without any ID check. And they will contaminated, laced drugs.

Second, it's obvious that the sale of drugs, like alchohol, would be only for over 18s. So your kid will able to get hold of it as much as he can get hold of alcohol.

Third, increased education will enable your kid to make a reasonable choice about it, knowing full well the medical risks and complications that taking drugs will lead to. So, he will be able to make an informed choice, as opposed to buying an illegal product to be "cool" without knowing what he is taking.

I'm not saying that no one will buy drugs.

But it won't increase the number of people taking it. Only their education about it, the quality of the drug (not in terms of potency, but in terms of purity), and the control of governement over it.

I know this isn't a vote winner. I know we'd much rather pretend that problem isn't there, or that the "war on drugs" is somewhat effective.

But it's ********* My kids will take drugs if they want to.

I'd rather they did it knowing the risks and consequences. And, if they take them, I'd rather it wasnt laced with rat poison. I'd rather the money they spent was directed towards drug education, rather than terrorism or people trafficking. I'd rather the guy that sells them kept a record of it, rather than try to push harder drugs onto him.

This solution isn't perfect, of course. Legalising them will mean that there is some kind of "societal approval" of drugs. Just like there is some kind of "societal approval" of alcohol. But I also think a lot of kids smoke cannabis because its "cool". Taking away its illegality will also take away some of that "coolness".
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#6 Aug 14 2006 at 8:35 AM Rating: Decent
tarv of the Seven Seas wrote:

These things aren't illegal for the sake of it, they are illegal because the wide use of them has serious consequenses both of the health and socieo-ecconomic well being of society.


Of course, cocaine and heroin are extreemly damaging for the health. I've never said they weren't.

But I'm pretty sure that allowing people to get them from a doctor, who can monitor them, refer them to a clinic, give them professional medical help, and administer safe, and "clean" doses, is a million times better than allowing criminal gangs to sell crappy drugs laced with harmful substances for an inflated price.

I don't think more people will take them if they become legal. I wouldn't go to see my doctor and ask him for heroin for the sake of it.
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#7 Aug 14 2006 at 8:37 AM Rating: Excellent
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Quote:
Chronic users may develop collapsed veins, infection of the heart lining and valves, abscesses, cellulitis, and liver disease. Pulmonary complications, including various types of pneumonia, may result from the poor health condition of the abuser,


These effects are almost entirely due to current conditions under which heroin is ingested, and not to the drug itself.

I'm not offering an opinion on legalizing it, but unless a controlled study were available using otherwise healthy subjects, it's impossible to speculate about the long-term effects of the drug itself.

I suspect there will be some. I suspect they won't be the ones on that list.
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#8 Aug 14 2006 at 8:39 AM Rating: Good
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legalising drugs is not a solution, it will lead to higher levels of addiction and wide associated problems.

You live in England Red, do you honestly think that the people you see in pubs and clubs on a saturday night have the required restraint not to get themselves killed if you swapped alcohol for heroin?

It would be lambs to the slaughter.

if you really want to slow down drug use, then show teenagers around rehab clinics where the seriously damaged people are "recovering" and let them make the choise.

At the end of the day you can only give kids the information they do with it as they will, but legalising a dangerous and powerful addicive substance like Herion is paramount to state sponsered murder.
#9 Aug 14 2006 at 8:47 AM Rating: Excellent
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I have another suspicion, by the way. I suspect that if drugs currently illegal were made legal, they would lose a lot of their appeal and would be replaced by other, not-yet-legal substances.

We're not talking about the most mature and rational segment of the population, after all. The borrowed glamor or rebellion is half of the appeal, at least at first.
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#10 Aug 14 2006 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
I think people in clubs and bars in England have access to all the drugs they want for very cheap.

I also think they are extreemly unaware of the what these drugs do exactly.

I also think that if they smoked cannabis instead of drinking alcohol, the streets would be safer and cleaner.

Once again, I'm not advocating selling heroin in pubs/supermarkets. It would have to be controlled sale, by a doctor.

Honestly, if you could go to your doctor, and buy some heroin, in exchange for your details, would you do it? I know I wouldn't.

Quote:
if you really want to slow down drug use, then show teenagers around rehab clinics where the seriously damaged people are "recovering" and let them make the choise.


I entirely agree with that. It should be done, and the funds would be there to do it regularly. Education is the key.

But leaving a multi-billion dollar industry entirely in the hands of criminals is even crazier. Billions in revenues lost. Wars, private militias, rogue governemnts, people trafficking, instability, all of that is a direct result of the drug trade. Despite the money spent each year on the "war on drugs".

I don't think the situation we have today is satisfactory in anyway.
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#11 Aug 14 2006 at 8:55 AM Rating: Good
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I also think that if they smoked cannabis instead of drinking alcohol, the streets would be safer and cleaner.
I agree on that score, moreover i see no reason why it isn't already legal since it is no more damaging than tobacco and has far more possible benefits.

But class A drugs are lethal chemicals and if the widespread problems cause by the Crack epidemic in American inner cities isn't reason enough to keep them as hard to get hold of as possible i don't know what is.
#12 Aug 14 2006 at 8:56 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxxxxx wrote:
But I'm pretty sure that allowing people to get them from a doctor, who can monitor them, refer them to a clinic, give them professional medical help, and administer safe, and "clean" doses, is a million times better than allowing criminal gangs to sell crappy drugs laced with harmful substances for an inflated price.
So when I become addicted to heroin, who will buy my drugs for me to keep me from committing crimes to keep my prescriptions filled? When I don't want "professional help" to take my heroin away because I'm in the grips of a serious addiction, what will stop me from buying it off the streets?

How is this program any better than what we have now aside from making the government the initial enabler?
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Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#13 Aug 14 2006 at 8:58 AM Rating: Decent
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Nadenu wrote:
Quote:

Quote:
KriegsmaschineVondentoten wrote:
Oh, wait, that will never happen, because we all know that kids will act totally respsonsibly about this easy access to formerly un-attainable drugs.


You don't get out much, do you?


Point taken... that should have read "easy access to formerly hard to obtain drugs." I'm not naive enough to believe that they can't get them now but, at least in our community, it is hard for them to get.
#14 Aug 14 2006 at 9:03 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
So when I become addicted to heroin, who will buy my drugs for me to keep me from committing crimes to keep my prescriptions filled? When I don't want "professional help" to take my heroin away because I'm in the grips of a serious addiction, what will stop me from buying it off the streets?

How is this program any better than what we have now aside from making the government the initial enabler?


You can be addicted to heroin and still have a job. A prominent member of Thatcher's governement was a heroin addict.

Second, most heroin addicts are not happy with their condition. However, today, they are ostracised and criminalised. Not the best incentive to get some help.

If they knew they could safely go and see their doctor, get a little bit of "clean" heroin, cheaply, and get a referral to a treatment center, I think most would prefer that to an expensive, "cut", unpure version.

But you are right. I've never said my solution would solve the whole drug problem entirely. I'm not that naive. Some people would, maybe, still get the expensive, bad, risky heroin. For a while.

However, even they would at least have a viable alternative.
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#15 Aug 14 2006 at 9:06 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
But class A drugs are lethal chemicals and if the widespread problems cause by the Crack epidemic in American inner cities isn't reason enough to keep them as hard to get hold of as possible i don't know what is.


Exactly.

Crack is another exemple of why leaving the drug market in the hands of criminals is, well, criminal.

Why was crack created? Because it cheaper, easier to carry, gives a much bigger high but a much longer and much more painful "come-down", and because it is much more addictive. Which, for a criminal drug dealer, is perfect. They created it, and pushed it onto kids to whome they were selling coke or cannabis.

A governemnt controleld industry would never do that. If they were to produce "new drugs", they would be less addictive, have a less "come-down", and be less harmful.

Drug-dealer want drugs as addictive and as strong as possible. A governemnt would want drugs as harmless and least addictive as possible.

I'd rather the governemnt controlled this industry.
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#16 Aug 14 2006 at 9:32 AM Rating: Decent
Switzerland has done more or less what I'm advocating, with regards to heroin, for a little while (1994).

This article talks about it.

Here are some of the results:

Quote:
In late 1994, the Social Welfare Department in Zurich held a press conference to issue its preliminary findings:

1) Heroin prescription is feasible, and has produced no black market in diverted heroin.

2) The health of the addicts in the program has clearly improved.

3) Heroin prescription alone cannot solve the problems that led to the heroin addiction in the first place.

4) Heroin prescription is less a medical program than a social-psychological approach to a complex personal and social problem.

5) Heroin per se causes very few, if any, problems when it is used in a controlled fashion and administered in hygienic conditions.

Program administrators also found little support for the widespread belief that addicts' cravings for heroin are insatiable. When offered practically unlimited amounts of heroin (up to 300 milligrams three times a day), addicts soon realized that the maximum doses provided less of a "flash" than lower doses, and cut back their dosage levels accordingly.
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#17 Aug 14 2006 at 9:48 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxxxxx wrote:
You can be addicted to heroin and still have a job. A prominent member of Thatcher's governement was a heroin addict.
You can also have an addiction, the cost of which exceeds your excess spending cash. I can take a stab at which scenario is more likely.
Quote:
Second, most heroin addicts are not happy with their condition. However, today, they are ostracised and criminalised. Not the best incentive to get some help.
No one is going to jail merely for checking into a clinic. And I find it hard to believe that heroin addicts wouldn't be ostracised regardless. Hell, we've made pariahs out of tobacco users.
Quote:
If they knew they could safely go and see their doctor, get a little bit of "clean" heroin, cheaply
I also have my doubts at the "cheapness" of this. Who is making this stuff? Pharmacuticals companies? Coca-Cola? Johnson & Johnson? Hershey? If they know people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a cocaine habit, why sell it for $10? Will there be forced price fixing by the government? If so, shouldn't the government fix prices on life-saving useful medications rather than recreational narcotics?
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#18 Aug 14 2006 at 9:51 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
And they will contaminated, laced drugs.




Who the hell is gonna put extra **** in the stuff they sell without charging extra for it?


I hate wehn people say taht.


back in the day, ew could only be so lucky to have someone lace our **** with some chronic.
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#19 Aug 14 2006 at 9:53 AM Rating: Decent
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Will there be forced price fixing by the government? If so, shouldn't the government fix prices on life-saving useful medications rather than recreational narcotics?
Sure, because fixing the price and then taxing the hell out of it wouldn't be immoral at all.

I maintain that legalising a lethal drug (As in kill you now, not it might kill you in 20 years) is state sanctioned murder.
#20 Aug 14 2006 at 9:58 AM Rating: Decent
Quote:
You can also have an addiction, the cost of which exceeds your excess spending cash. I can take a stab at which scenario is more likely


Of course. I never said that there would be no more crimes related to drugs. Once again, this is not the miracle cure. Just a step in the right direction (in my opnion).

Quote:
No one is going to jail merely for checking into a clinic. And I find it hard to believe that heroin addicts wouldn't be ostracised regardless. Hell, we've made pariahs out of tobacco users


No, but you would merely for possession. And the ostracosation of tobacco users is not quite the same as the one of heroin users. It's a different level.

Quote:
I also have my doubts at the "cheapness" of this. Who is making this stuff? Pharmacuticals companies? Coca-Cola? Johnson & Johnson? Hershey? If they know people will spend tens of thousands of dollars on a cocaine habit, why sell it for $10? Will there be forced price fixing by the government? If so, shouldn't the government fix prices on life-saving useful medications rather than recreational narcotics?


As I said earlier, it would be nationalised. The governement would take care of it. No need to involve private companies, this is not a profit-based entreprise, but a public health one. So the governemnt would cultivate it, and sell it through doctors. Nothing private in there.

As for the governement fixing prices for life-saving medications, I'm all for it. I don't se how these two propositions are mutually exclusive.

To be honest, I think the pharmaceutical industry is another area which needs drastic changes. But that's for another thread.
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#21 Aug 14 2006 at 10:18 AM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
Who is making this stuff? Pharmacuticals companies? Coca-Cola? Johnson & Johnson? Hershey?

Yummy! I wouldn't mind walking into Walgreens and buying a chocolate-covered heroin bar!

Smiley: drool2
#22 Aug 14 2006 at 10:36 AM Rating: Excellent
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RedPhoenixxxxxx wrote:
No, but you would merely for possession.
That has nothing to do with seeking help. Unless you're going to the clinic with a pocket full of drugs.
Quote:
As for the governement fixing prices for life-saving medications, I'm all for it. I don't se how these two propositions are mutually exclusive
They're not. I was pointing out that if we're not willing to do the one with a real public health benefit to law abiding citizens, I don't see us ever giving out cheap drugs either. I realize though that you've already pointed out that you don't expect your plan to ever come to pass.
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#23 Aug 14 2006 at 11:00 AM Rating: Good
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Nadenu wrote:
KriegsmaschineVondentoten wrote:
Oh, wait, that will never happen, because we all know that kids will act totally respsonsibly about this easy access to formerly un-attainable drugs.


You don't get out much, do you?


I remember the nostalgic memories of such things that may occur still in such places as the establishment of my latter period of middle schooling in which people would talk of such frabjous things as getting a handle to some extent as to getting Xanax. Such things might be a greater enjoyment so share in a familiar nostalgia with one's children if access with made easier though I suppose to some extent.
#24 Aug 14 2006 at 11:04 AM Rating: Decent
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I think part of the problem is that kids are shown the "fun" side of doing drugs by their peers. At the same time, they're being told of the risks, but it's like being lectured to by your parents and teachers, which we know how well that works. Instead of being told, they need to be shown how bad drugs are. It should be a requirement for school that every child, maybe in the 9th grade or so, must have a tour of a rehab hospital, a morgue and a homeless shelter. Nothing beats seeing the effects with your own eyes.
#25 Aug 14 2006 at 11:07 AM Rating: Good
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Hazards of addiction aside... whoo hoo! More litigation! People are suing cigarette companies because they're addicted to them. Now you want to open the govt up to that kind of litigation?

Oh yeah, that'll lighten the burden on the legal system, not to mention save lots of money.

#26 Aug 14 2006 at 11:17 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
That has nothing to do with seeking help. Unless you're going to the clinic with a pocket full of drugs.


It does have little to do with it, in the addict's frame of mind. He is comitting a criminal offense, just by being an addict, and knows it. This does weigh on a decision to go and seek help.

Second, many of those centres lack the ressources necessary. Promoting rehab for drug-addcits is not a vote winner. Neither at federal, nor local level.

Quote:
Instead of being told, they need to be shown how bad drugs are. It should be a requirement for school that every child, maybe in the 9th grade or so, must have a tour of a rehab hospital, a morgue and a homeless shelter. Nothing beats seeing the effects with your own eyes.


I entirely agree. Education is the key. Showing them what happens is undoubtedly the best way to do it. But again, this education would be the core of the legalisation process, which would prvide the ressources for it.

Quote:
People are suing cigarette companies because they're addicted to them. Now you want to open the govt up to that kind of litigation?


This is silly. People will be made aware of the risk. If you drink a bottle of Jack Daniel's a day and end up with liver cancer, you can't sue them. If you start smoking today, and try to sue tobacco companies in 20 years time when you get cancer, you won't win either.

These cases worekd because people started smoking in the 50s when tobacco companies were telling them it was actually good for their health.

Edited, Aug 14th 2006 at 12:18pm EDT by RedPhoenixxxxxx
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