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Poor gays in MOFollow

#1 Jul 31 2006 at 9:54 AM Rating: Good
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It must suck not to be a bigoted troglodyte and have to live in that state.
Quote:
Missouri lifts restrictions on gay foster parents
JEFFERSON CITY, Mo. (AP) — Following a court mandate, Missouri officials said Tuesday that they have lifted regulations that automatically prevented homosexuals from becoming foster parents.
But while the decision clears the way for gays to get licensed to care for foster children, officials with the Department of Social Services said it might still be difficult for a gay person to become a foster parent.

"We're considering the biological parents' preferences, and we're also considering the abuse and neglect that occurred to the child and whether or not an alternative lifestyle environment would be confusing or add trauma to an already abused or neglected child," said department spokeswoman Deborah Scott, whose office filed the new rules with the Secretary of State.

Jackson County Circuit Judge Sandra Midkiff ruled in February that the state could not reject a foster parent license application by Kansas City lesbian Lisa Johnston. Johnson, who wanted to foster children with her partner, Dawn Roginski, was turned down three years ago after officials said she lacked "reputable character" because homosexuality was illegal in Missouri.

Midkiff, in her ruling, cited the 2003 U.S. Supreme Court decision that struck down a Texas law against same-sex sodomy.

State Attorney General Jay Nixon last month said he wouldn't appeal Midkiff's decision, saying Gov. Matt Blunt had just signed a law that repealed Missouri's anti-homosexuality language.

Blunt's office had urged Nixon, a Democrat, to pursue the appeal, saying the Republican governor opposed gays as foster parents.

The Department of Social Services said it filed the new language to comply with the court decision. But department officials added that from now on, they will ask prospective foster parents about their sexual orientation, something the department didn't routinely do before.

Scott said that the department considers a foster family's cultural background and religion when matching them with children, so sexual orientation is important as well.

"If you have a child who's been abused by someone of the same sex, then placing them in the home of a couple of the same sex might not be in the best interest of the child," she said.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Kansas and Western Missouri questioned the reasoning for the additional information.

"If they're going to comply with the measure, why do they need to know if people are gays or lesbians?" said Brett Shirk, the group's executive director.

Blunt spokesman Spence Jackson said the governor "still believes gay foster homes aren't the best place for foster children," but said the department shouldn't intentionally discriminate against people solely because of their sexual orientation.

Copyright 2006 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

Honestly, I read about this, and it just makes me sad. I know that's a second-grade word, but at the end of the day, it's a very primal, simple emotion. Just the feeling of it started me thinking about children, and the way they must view homosexuality. It is no doubt 99% tied in to their parents and what they teach them as being the paradigm, so to speak, but there must also be a part of a child that is wired to accept affection and love between members of the same sex. Babies kiss their friends, children openly say they love each other... At what point do we lose the innocence of what it means to love someone? At what point can we not communicate this cherishing to our children? Is it really that hard?
How did you explain homosexuality to your kids? Have you, or do you plan to? Have you thought about what you'd like them to know in order to frame an opinion about it later on, even if it diverges from yours?
#2 Jul 31 2006 at 10:14 AM Rating: Decent

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"If you have a child who's been abused by someone of the same sex, then placing them in the home of a couple of the same sex might not be in the best interest of the child," she said.


So surely a child that has been abused by someone from a different sex should go into foster with same-sex parents?

Flea wrote:
How did you explain homosexuality to your kids? Have you, or do you plan to? Have you thought about what you'd like them to know in order to frame an opinion about it later on, even if it diverges from yours?


By saying that people are like flowers, they come in all shapes and sizes.

I don't think a child has an innate inability to understand homosexual love. You talk about friends and cuddles, and it's exactly true. Most people have a same-sex best friends, whom they love and care deeply about. nothing weird about that.

The "problem" kicks in with sex. But there are many ways to explain this to your child, depending on your belief: It's nature's way of keeping the population in check, or it's a sign that God is losing the battle against evil, or it's a sign of Western decadence and Islam will rise to burn the infidels in righteous fire, etc...
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#3 Jul 31 2006 at 10:19 AM Rating: Good
My children only need to know one thing. They're people. That's it...that's all that matters, IMO. It is sad, because they aren't taking into consideration how much love gay foster couples have to give (being that typically they some do not have the money to go through other means to have children of their own). Most gay couples have more love to give than the average family.

But yea, they're sexual preference matters. No one trusts that a child can grow up completely capable of making their own decisions by the time they're teenagers. We have to condition their childhood so they turn out "correct".

I'm so sick of seeing these gay issues come up. Who cares, for Christ's sake. It's no ones business but their own what sexual preference they have. If they're good people, they're good people. That's all that matters.

Edited: shouldn't have said typically...fixed that

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 11:21am EDT by Ryneguy
#4 Jul 31 2006 at 10:20 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
Quote:

"If you have a child who's been abused by someone of the same sex, then placing them in the home of a couple of the same sex might not be in the best interest of the child," she said.




So surely a child that has been abused by someone from a different sex should go into foster with same-sex parents?


While I agree with you in spirit, there is something to be said for the fact that homosexuality doesn't enjoy the same place in society as heterosexuality. Since it's still at best outside the norm, and at worst shunned and attacked, it could potentially be problematic for children who are victims of same-sex abuse be adopted by a homosexual couple.

Just saying it's not exactly the same thing.
#5 Jul 31 2006 at 10:27 AM Rating: Good
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RedPhoenixxxxxx wrote:
I don't think a child has an innate inability to understand homosexual love. You talk about friends and cuddles, and it's exactly true. Most people have a same-sex best friends, whom they love and care deeply about. nothing weird about that.

The "problem" kicks in with sex.
Thing is, they understand heterosexual love because it's modelled for them everywhere. When my sister was five, we had a gay couple that lived across the street. She wrinkled her nose at first because she had been raised in a hetero home with a fairly chauvinistic male role model, but when my mother explained that being gay meant they loved each other the way married couples did, she understood that. I think it has to do with how you, as an adult, react. Children imitate behavior. It's how they learn.

Eske wrote:
Since it's still at best outside the norm, and at worst shunned and attacked, it could potentially be problematic for children who are victims of same-sex abuse be adopted by a homosexual couple.
How, exactly? Do you mean children who are abused by children their same age, or vicitms of pedophilia? And if you mean rape victims, then what do you do with hetereosexual vicitms of abuse? Leave them in the facilities for fear that a hetero relationship will damage them further? I don't think you've thought it through.

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 11:31am EDT by Atomicflea
#6 Jul 31 2006 at 10:30 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
Since it's still at best outside the norm, and at worst shunned and attacked, it could potentially be problematic for children who are victims of same-sex abuse be adopted by a homosexual couple.


This makes sense, although at the same time...it's my belief that alternatively forcing restrictions upon a child coming from this type of atmosphere is a negative factor in rebuilding the childs trust and life from the ground up. A child needs to understand love before they can overcome tragedy...shielding them from life is only going to make things worse.

This is actually something that kind of came up this weekend between me and my Sister, who has a 4 year old daughter. She was constantly trying to crawl up on my (9 month pregnant) wife, which was entirely unacceptable. But when she started poking her and asking why she was fat...that drew the line. While my sister thought nothing to say anything, I stepped in to scold her.

Why? Because if she cannot be taught in the environment, she's not learning anything. Children won't understand if they've no where to place the logic they're trying to be taught. It's like trying to tell a child that somethings wrong, if they've never done it, seen it, or experienced it.

Not 100% the same thing, and I understand the logic behind it. But IMHO, shielding the child from such a atmosphere is only denying the chance to better understand it and learn about it. (Edit:) Same with how some therapy revolves around exposure to the problem (-phobics). An agoraphobic person is never going to get better if they're never exposed to the public or outdoors.

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 11:33am EDT by Ryneguy
#7 Jul 31 2006 at 10:39 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:

While I agree with you in spirit, there is something to be said for the fact that homosexuality doesn't enjoy the same place in society as heterosexuality. Since it's still at best outside the norm, and at worst shunned and attacked, it could potentially be problematic for children who are victims of same-sex abuse be adopted by a homosexual couple.

Just saying it's not exactly the same thing.


You're right on the precipice of equating homosexuality with molestation. From theer it's just a stone's throw to suggesting sodomy leads to beastiality, and everyone knows beastiality is caused by too much alcohol. This is what the hate-mongerers do when they attack gays; they treat it like beer and marijuana; a gateway sexual orientation on course toward pedophilia and goat humping. I just used two semi-colons in one sentence, rawr.

And Flea, I was hoping for some romantic fiction in this thread. I was hoping you had just forgotten the "e" at the end of your topic.
#8 Jul 31 2006 at 10:51 AM Rating: Good
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Barkingturtle wrote:
Eske wrote:

While I agree with you in spirit, there is something to be said for the fact that homosexuality doesn't enjoy the same place in society as heterosexuality. Since it's still at best outside the norm, and at worst shunned and attacked, it could potentially be problematic for children who are victims of same-sex abuse be adopted by a homosexual couple.

Just saying it's not exactly the same thing.


You're right on the precipice of equating homosexuality with molestation. From theer it's just a stone's throw to suggesting sodomy leads to beastiality, and everyone knows beastiality is caused by too much alcohol. This is what the hate-mongerers do when they attack gays; they treat it like beer and marijuana; a gateway sexual orientation on course toward @#%^philia and goat humping. I just used two semi-colons in one sentence, rawr.

And Flea, I was hoping for some romantic fiction in this thread. I was hoping you had just forgotten the "e" at the end of your topic.


Eh? I'm really not sure how you inferred that from what I wrote. I'm talking about traumas inflicted by negative societal images about homosexuality. And I don't recall saying that they were a good thing, either.
#9 Jul 31 2006 at 10:54 AM Rating: Good
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The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
How did you explain homosexuality to your kids? Have you, or do you plan to? Have you thought about what you'd like them to know in order to frame an opinion about it later on, even if it diverges from yours?


My youngest one is pretty young to even think about relationships, but my boys (14 and almost 11) are aware of relationships, especially the oldest one. I haven't talked with either of them about homosexuality, but they know if they want to know something, they can come to me with any questions that they might have and I'll try to answer them as frankly as I can.

I do remember one time in San Diego when one of my younger cousins asked me something along the lines of why was that girl kissing another girl (this was at the mall) and I said she just likes to. They asked why she likes and I asked them why do they like chocolate ice cream? They just said they do and I said then the girl just likes kissing other girls. I tried to make it sound like it's a normal normal preference, like preferring chocolate over vanilla ice cream.
#10 Jul 31 2006 at 10:58 AM Rating: Good
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Barkingturtle wrote:
And Flea, I was hoping for some romantic fiction in this thread. I was hoping you had just forgotten the "e" at the end of your topic.
Jerk off to MOEtasies on your own time, slacker.
#11 Jul 31 2006 at 11:03 AM Rating: Decent
Flea wrote:
Thing is, they understand heterosexual love because it's modelled for them everywhere. When my sister was five, we had a gay couple that lived across the street. She wrinkled her nose at first because she had been raised in a hetero home with a fairly chauvinistic male role model, but when my mother explained that being gay meant they loved each other the way married couples did, she understood that. I think it has to do with how you, as an adult, react. Children imitate behavior. It's how they learn.


I completely agree. Apart from the societal norms you described, I cant see how it is more difficult for a child to understand "gay" love than "hetero" love.

All the prejudices about gayness are cultural, not innate.
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#12 Jul 31 2006 at 11:04 AM Rating: Excellent
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Not The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
"If you have a child who's been abused by someone of the same sex, then placing them in the home of a couple of the same sex might not be in the best interest of the child," she said.


So... if a child has been molested by a guy, it would therefore be in his best interests to be put with a pair of lesbians? Count me in!

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 12:13pm EDT by Danalog
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#13 Jul 31 2006 at 11:06 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
Eh? I'm really not sure how you inferred that from what I wrote.
You're not? You should go back and read it.
Quote:
I'm talking about traumas inflicted by negative societal images about homosexuality. And I don't recall saying that they were a good thing, either.
See? There it is again. One has nothing to do with the other. It's like saying heterosexuality is linked somehow with sexual abuse, or child sexual predation.
#14 Jul 31 2006 at 11:11 AM Rating: Good
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Dana misattributed the following quote to me when he wrote:
"If you have a child who's been abused by someone of the same sex, then placing them in the home of a couple of the same sex might not be in the best interest of the child," she said.
Smiley: mad
#15 Jul 31 2006 at 11:12 AM Rating: Good
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How, exactly? Do you mean children who are abused by children their same age, or vicitms of pedophilia? And if you mean rape victims, then what do you do with hetereosexual vicitms of abuse? Leave them in the facilities for fear that a hetero relationship will damage them further? I don't think you've thought it through.


I think you're reading too far into what I said, like Barkingturtle did. I was simply responding to Redpheonix's comment to say that because homosexuality isn't looked upon as favorably by society as heterosexuality, children who were already the victims of abuse will likely have it even worse off.

I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that.
#16 Jul 31 2006 at 11:13 AM Rating: Decent
The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
Quote:
I'm talking about traumas inflicted by negative societal images about homosexuality. And I don't recall saying that they were a good thing, either.


See? There it is again. One has nothing to do with the other. It's like saying heterosexuality is linked somehow with sexual abuse, or child sexual predation.


Or rape. Which hardcore feminists used to do.

Not saying it's right, but people will always use an extreme (child molestation/rape) to condemn a harmless practice (homosexuality/heterosexuality), eventhough the links are far-fetched to say the least. It's the same as the "gateway drug" argument of heroin/cannabis.

It's the same with insults and defamation, if you're liberal you're a "commy", if you're right-wing you're a "****", if you're French you're a "cheese-eating-smelly-hairy-surrender-monkey".
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#17 Jul 31 2006 at 11:14 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:
Eh? I'm really not sure how you inferred that from what I wrote. I'm talking about traumas inflicted by negative societal images about homosexuality. And I don't recall saying that they were a good thing, either.


Then you can leave out the qualifier that the foster kid even needs to be molested for having gay foster parents be detrimental. That's how I inferred it, because you're saying that gay gfoster parents are going to be detrimental to kids due to societal images. Well what does that have to do with molestation? Using your logic, we could make a case that all sorts of minority groups shouldn't be allowed to foster parent since some segment of our population is going to give them grief.


Flea wrote:
Jerk off to MOEtasies on your own time, slacker.


But I just got to work. [:frustrated:]




Edited because that second sentence made no sense. I guess I was thinking of Moe.




Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 12:19pm EDT by Barkingturtle
#18 Jul 31 2006 at 11:14 AM Rating: Excellent
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Actually, in the private school my fiancee teaches at, there's kids with gay parents who don't get teased any especially more. But then again, that's private school.

They're always dressed really snazzy too
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#19 Jul 31 2006 at 11:16 AM Rating: Decent
Eske wrote:
I think you're reading too far into what I said, like Barkingturtle did. I was simply responding to Redpheonix's comment to say that because homosexuality isn't looked upon as favorably by society as heterosexuality, children who were already the victims of abuse will likely have it even worse off.

I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that.


I only said that to show that their argument was stupid. I don't think that kids that have been abused by a certain sex should be put into foster homes where that sex is not present. It's stupid, and won't "shiled" the child, nor reduce his trauma. Worse, it might engrain the idea that this sex is "evil" and must be avoided.

My exemple was just a reverse argument to show how stupid theirs was.
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#20 Jul 31 2006 at 11:22 AM Rating: Decent
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RedPhoenixxxxxx wrote:
It's the same with insults and defamation, if you're liberal you're a "commy", if you're right-wing you're a "****"

Nah. Liberals are both commies and ****'s.
#21 Jul 31 2006 at 11:23 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
I think you're reading too far into what I said, like Barkingturtle did. I was simply responding to Redpheonix's comment to say that because homosexuality isn't looked upon as favorably by society as heterosexuality, children who were already the victims of abuse will likely have it even worse off.

I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that.
Not out on a limb at all. I'm sure there are thousands of folks that would agree with you, but they would also just come out and say that gays are icky and going to hell and that is why.
You refuse to say how they would be worse off, which makes it seem like we should all just know what you mean, but we don't. Clarify. I posed several options in order to wrap my head around what you mean, and you have yet to explain what "worse off" means. Sadder? More abused? More ridiculed? Like the children of biracial parents? How exactly does gayness augment their psychological trauma unless you infer it is traumatic in and of itself, and if not, then what do you mean?
#22 Jul 31 2006 at 11:24 AM Rating: Good
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Quote:
See? There it is again. One has nothing to do with the other. It's like saying heterosexuality is linked somehow with sexual abuse, or child sexual predation.


Well, that's a corrollary of my point. It's a negative societal image of homosexuality, one of many. I don't think its hard to imagine ways in which a kid would suffer if he had encountered same-sex abuse, then was subjected to bias against homosexual couples on a daily basis (being made fun of, ostracized, etc.).

While in theory, there shouldn't be any connection between the two, society could either pin that idea on the kid, or he could develop it on his own. That is, I could see it messing with the kid's head in quite a few ways. Because heterosexuality is so accepted, it's a non-issue (therefor the comparison redpheonix made is slightly flawed).

I'd rather that the MO government err on the side of caution. I think there are better approaches to integrating homosexuality into society than by doing a "trial by fire" with impressionable (and potentially unstable, if they were abused) children, and seeing if they turn out OK.

Quote:
More ridiculed?


That's the one. I'm picturing a kid who's already had it rough because of abuse, who then has to deal with the slings and arrows that would come from having homosexual parents. Abuse has left him confused and weakened, and then add to that the kind of ostracizing that homosexuals have to go through, hearing every day that what his adopted parents do is "unnatural" and "evil", and then having to reconcile that with himself and what has happened to him.

Kids don't have a honed ability to rationalize things objectively like we do. They'll get all muddled up in his head, and he could potentially be worse off.

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 12:28pm EDT by Eske

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 12:30pm EDT by Eske
#23 Jul 31 2006 at 11:31 AM Rating: Good
Eske wrote:

I think you're reading too far into what I said, like Barkingturtle did. I was simply responding to Redpheonix's comment to say that because homosexuality isn't looked upon as favorably by society as heterosexuality, children who were already the victims of abuse will likely have it even worse off.

I don't think I'm really going out on a limb by saying that.


I admire the "sensitive to their plight" angle you're playing here, but it's implications are homophobic.
#24 Jul 31 2006 at 11:33 AM Rating: Good
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Eske wrote:
Well, that's a corrollary of my point. It's a negative societal image of homosexuality, one of many.
What is? Abuse? Sexual Predation? Both? Actually, it doesn't matter. If anyone thinks they're related, they're simply uneducated about the subject. I think kids should be protected from uneducated people. I'm going to start a campaign against letting them be foster parents.

Eske wrote:
I don't think its hard to imagine ways in which a kid would suffer if he had encountered same-sex abuse, then was subjected to bias against homosexual couples on a daily basis (being made fun of, ostracized, etc.).
Wow. You have a really low opinion of children, their resilience, and what shapes character versus what breaks spirit.

Eske wrote:
While in theory, there shouldn't be any connection between the two, society could either pin that idea on the kid, or he could develop it on his own.
I'd love to see data on this. Otherwise, it's just a big 'ol supposition. If you look, studies show that the augmented fear of molestation by gay parents is not supported by current research.

Quote:
I'd rather that the MO government err on the side of caution. I think there are better approaches to integrating homosexuality into society than by doing a "trial by fire" with impressionable (and potentially unstable, if they were abused) children, and seeing if they turn out OK.
It's not caution, it's ignorance. I'm glad I finally understand where you're coming from, but not a little disappointed that it was exactly where I expected you were coming from.

Edited, Jul 31st 2006 at 12:34pm EDT by Atomicflea
#25 Jul 31 2006 at 11:39 AM Rating: Good
On a pseudo-related note, I would happily raise a child with you, Flea, in a totally gay way, if only I had a ******. I keep getting pop-ups that I can order one, and it even comes with mouth and **** faceplates, so let me know if you're interested and we could split the cost.
#26 Jul 31 2006 at 11:46 AM Rating: Good
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Barkingturtle wrote:
On a pseudo-related note, I would happily raise a child with you, Flea, in a totally gay way, if only I had a ******. I keep getting pop-ups that I can order one, and it even comes with mouth and **** faceplates, so let me know if you're interested and we could split the cost.
I think your mere presence would be damaging to a child, but I mean that in the nicest way possible. In any case, thanks for the vote of confidence.
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