Explaining French anti-americanism (an attempt to)Follow

But Iraq (apparently) didn't have WMD.

And it's very nice of you to let us in on the secret master plan all conservative republicans had pre-war.

Assuming, for the moment, that they actually *had* such a plan (all of them, united, as you imply), would you care to reveal their secret reasons for not telling anyone? And instead, telling us to go to war due to WMD?

Fish? Check.

Barrel? Check.

Smoking gun? Check.

Why do I feel like puking whenever I read gbaji's posts..? have you got no humanity or compassion? You sit there in your comfy lil house, in your comfy lil town saying things that are so callous that I have difficulty even imagining what sort of sicko you are....



Painful for who? You? I think not. Painful for the Iraqis? yes. But you don't care about them do you? You havn't been to Iraq in peace time or war, so as far as you're concerned they're not even real people. People who, in peacetime, want to grow up, get married have kids, play football at weekends. You know? people like me or ..i was gonna say 'you', but I wont include you with the rest of the human race, and these same people who bleed when you torture them, and die when you shoot them, and grieve when you drop bombs on their kids. Real People. Not 'collaterals', or 'suspected insurgents', REAL people.

Painful for the soldiers of your military? Sure. But they signed up for it, so @#%^ them too, right? never mind that they went to an illegal war, under false pretenses, to be used as target practice by every wannabe terrorist with a heart full of Jihad. Not to mention the anger, and hostility that these military men and women face from the civilian population. Who are truly justified to be angry to the point of desparation at the brutal occupation that they are being subjected to. So what that 2500 have died. Thousands more have been injured and maimed, not to mention the untold numbers who are gonna come back mentally destroyed, or dying slowly from Christ knows what illness bought on by DU munitions or chemical cocktails.



Again. Painfull to who? Obviously not painfull enough to you.

Upper hand?? You are kidding right? i know that historical edumakashun isn't a strong point in schools generally, and especialy in the US but really.... What makes you think for a minute that the US has the upper hand in Iraq? Sure you got bombs and guns and prisons, and torturers and a bunch o desperate Iraqis working with you. But you cannot win 'Victory' in Iraq. those people own their country. They will die for their country, their religion and their 'family'. They will never stop fighting to rid their home of the invaders. If the roles were reversed, and you were under Iraqi occupation, would you submit to the installed government of a foreign power? I sure as sh'it wouldn't. Neither will they. In the same way that the Red army was driven out of Afghanistan, the US army was driven out of Vietnam, and the Brits were driven out of Iraq at the begining of the last century, you too will get driven out. This WILL happen.




So rather than go and hunt down the perpetrator of the 9/11 attacks, the Bushies decided that an illegal war of aggression was the way to go. Great. Result - 100,000 or more dead innocent by-standers, 2500 dead americans, most of the goodwill of the whole world, (including the moslem world would you believe) flushed down the toilet, and OBL. Oh yeah him. He's still out there. And the Bushies are still talking about 'turning corners' in Iraq.



Those sanctions may have been a 'joke' to you, but to the people of Iraq, they were definately not very funny. Iraq was on its knees after the first Gulf war. The sanctions were nothing short of a medievel siege intended to humiliate the leadership, and starve the citizens to the point where they would 'rise up and overthrow' said leadership. There were no WMD's. The army turned up to fight in rubber sandals with archaic rifles and Sadaams guns pointed at their backs. Sanctions that starve the citizens of a country, that deny their children food and medicine, that deprive the people of hope, don't make them angry at their government. It makes them angry at the people applying the sanctions. Those sanctions were nothing more than a collective punishment on the people of Iraq. You're right. The invasion had nothing to do with WMD's. Everyone within the Administration and beyond knew there wasn't any. It was a cynical exploitation of the fear that the threat of 'mushroom clouds' and chemical bombs invokes, to scare witless the voting public into believing that there was an imminent danger from this pronated country.



Dems. Republicans, whats the f'ukkin difference? The point is wether there was a problem or not, ( and yes I believe that there was a huge problem).

The sad thing is that the best thing that anyone could come up with, was to go around the place dropping bombs on other peoples countries, some of wich had nothing to do with the problem. To me it shows how utterly reprehensible and self serving todays goverments are.


The only people more reprehensible, in my mind, are people like Gbaji who not only agree with these destructive f'uckers, but uses his tortuous exercises in 'logic' to try and convince the rest of us, that the industrial slaughter of human beings is something that not only has a place in the world, but that it can have a positive outcome.

And that i would contend, is why the 'rest of the world' (including the french)is having a bloody hard time seeing anything good about America and the way it is heading.

Again. For the hard of thinking. Its not about Liberal. Conservative. Dem. R. Its about what is right and wrong. And you Gbaji, are so monumentally WRONG.


I know I know.....But i cant help it. Its like picking a scab on your knee....

Edited, Jun 22nd 2006 at 1:56am EDT by paulsol

Saw today that reports are coming out that 500 some odd "weapons" were found with Sarin or Mustard Gas in them. It was old stuff, but still usable. Someone is forcing the Pentagon to divulge this, and they think more WMDs were found - and are working on getting info on that.

Also saw a report that many of the wmd facilities were up and ready to produce - any time Saddam wanted to.

Also, it's not been proven one way or another that Iraq sent a bunch of its best WMDs to Syria right before the war, to the Bathist gov't there. I'm not saying this is true. I'm saying it's a possibility, and we don't know the truth.

Gbaji. I don't even bother linking stuff anymore since you just ignore all the issues that don't fit within your interpretation.

But, here we go nonetheless, Al-Qaeda origins. They were set-up to defend Afghanistan from the Russians, funded by the Americans.

Now, as to their goals. Think. For example, about the Madrid bombings. Did that have anything to do with US troops in Saudi? The Bali bombings? Anything to do with it? The London bombings? Nope, still not. All of these were related to... the Iraq war!! Ta-da...

So the masterplan of invading Iraq so that the troops could be removed from Saudi caused even more bombings in the rest of the world. In countries that did not have troops in Saudi Arabia. I see.

And why did they not just remove troops in Saudi by placing in Koweit? Jordan? Egypt?

You call it "blind faith", I call it "reasoning". And I much rpefer it to the "cold hard facts" handed to you by the Republicans.

Al-Qaeda is not, once again, a top-down organisation. It is a cluster of cells spread out through the world with minimal contact with each other. Just like the IRA was. Removing the troops from Saudi will change fock all. It will give them one less propaganda argument, but the Republicans have given them so many more (Guanta, Abu, Iraq war, supporting corrupted regimes in the M-E, etc...) that it wont make an iota of a difference.



No, you can't. What you can do, though, is remove some of the support they receive from the local populations by making their propaganda arguments obsolete. You can try to make poverty in those places less strong. You can change the actions and image of the US governemnt so that it doesnt look like a bully thats bent on destroying Muslims. This is not a war you will win by strength, no matter how tough and macho you are. This is, and has always been, a PR war. Which the US has no choice but to win. Al-Qaeda is dependent on young men committing suicides. By invading Iraq, by torturing Muslims, by refusing to submit to international law, you're just giving them more ammo. Thats all you're doing.



You poor desillusional man. London, Madrid, Bali have all been hit since the start of the Iraq war. It's only because of luck that the US hasnt been hit again. If you think Iraq is a "local conflict", you are even stupider than I thought. Iraq is a much bigger rallying cry than a few marines in the Saudi desert now. You are not "redefining anything" except hatred towards what is perceived as American Imperialist.

The Muslims that commit these attacks commit suicide when they do. Do you think they are *scared* of the US? They are about to die! This is not a war you will win with guns and killings. For all the guys you kill, their brothers will replace them. And their cousins. This is a war of perception. Not *yours*. But theirs.

The planet is a closed environment, you cannot hide, and you cannot pretend the rest of the world doesnt matter or can bullied into submission.

The troops in Saudi did **** all to uphold the sanctions anyway. Those air raids could've been carried out from Jordan.

QFT

I made a huge post answering it all, but @#%^ it. Its the week-end soon, and I cant be ***** with this pointless debate.

We've already talked about the illegality of this war a million times. And this is not a "discussion", just your game of saying words have different meanings so that it fits your, sorry the governemnt's, interpretation.

So, gbaji, you know what? You are 100% right. Well done. Congrats. Gimme a hug you lovable teddy bear:

- The war in Iraq was legal under international law, which is why it was a tremendously successful UN operation like Afghnaistan and the previous war in Iraq, and why the UN is now the guarantor of Peace and Secuity in the world.

- It was also morally right, which is why the Iraqis view the troops as liberators, and the whole world, and not just Muslims, see America as a benevolent and friendly supwer-power, and why they all love Bush.

- It was also strategically supra-intelligent, which is why the world is now a much better place.

- And finally, yes, Al-Qaeda will disappear the second US troops leave Saudi Arabia, and no one will hold a grudge, which is why countries that had no troops there got bombed (UK, Spain, Bali, etc...). The fact they were in the regional mess, i mean success, that is Iraq is purely coincidental.

Gbaji, you are so right. You are a beacon of intelligence upon our desperately retarded and manipulated selves. Thanks for opening my eyes, really. The supreme intelligence of what you try to argue will humble much cleverer men than me, I have no doubt about it. Please continue to enlghten me with your superior wit, original thoughts, and flawless argumetnation. Good-faithed and always ready to question his own beliefs, gbaji, you are a great man.

/kiss

Edited, Jun 23rd 2006 at 5:40am EDT by RedPhoenixxxxxx

The best part:

Trickybeck - Jun 22nd 2006 at 3:43pm EDT
Gbaji - Jun 22nd 2006 at 8:50pm EDT

Tricky is a living sooth sayer! Ph33r Tricky!!!

VERY interesting post. I myself and a french-canadian (not from quebec.. northern ontario) and I've always found myself pondering about the relations between french and english, canada and USA, french and USA, etc etc etc.
Your post at least explains a bit about my french roots (which I never looked into heh)
Personaly, from a political standpoint, I feel Bush isnt' fit to lead.. (mind you Canada's current PM is rather questionable too) but that's politics, the subject I try to avoid with people I've just met.
From a more personal standpoint, I don't care where someone is from. Prove yourself and I'll respect you for that.

Canadian/french-canadian hatred rears its ugly head

/sing

"Words! Words! Everywhere are words!

Eatin' up cyberspace, revealin' the nerds!

Believe this, don't believe that - chokin' on these wooooords!"




And yes, the irony is amazing.

/translation

This ain't yo daddy's munitions

This is some serious munition power
And I
Am scared
.
.
.
Since when were documents "classified"
let alone "declassified"?

A document is a document
by any other name

/hanging upon "fact" < hanging upon "philosophy"
n'est-ce-pas?