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Search & Seizure II: Return of the Supreme CourtFollow

#1 Jun 15 2006 at 11:33 AM Rating: Excellent
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After discussing the SCOTUS ruling where police entered a home and seized evidence without a warrant after witnessing a minor melee through a back screen door, we get the latest Court decision on Amendment=4.
CNN wrote:
WASHINGTON (AP) -- The Supreme Court ruled Thursday that police armed with a warrant can barge into homes and seize evidence even if they don't knock, a huge government victory that was decided by President Bush's new justices.

The 5-4 ruling clearly signals the court's conservative shift following the departure of moderate Sandra Day O'Connor.

The case tested previous court rulings that police armed with warrants generally must knock and announce themselves or they run afoul of the Constitution's Fourth Amendment ban on unreasonable searches.

Justice Antonin Scalia, writing for the majority, said Detroit police acknowledge violating that rule when they called out their presence at a man's door then went inside three seconds to five seconds later.

"Whether that preliminary misstep had occurred or not, the police would have executed the warrant they had obtained, and would have discovered the gun and drugs inside the house," Scalia wrote.

But suppressing evidence is too high of a penalty, Scalia said, for errors by police in failing to properly announce themselves.
[...]
Hudson's lawyers argued that evidence against him was connected to the improper search and could not be used against him.

Scalia said that a victory for Hudson would have given "a get-out-of-jail-free card" to him and others.

In a dissent, four justices complained that the decision erases more than 90 years of Supreme Court precedent.

"It weakens, perhaps destroys, much of the practical value of the Constitution's knock-and-announce protection," Justice Stephen Breyer wrote for himself and the three other liberal members.
CNN story
Supreme Court Decision (PDF file)
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#2 Jun 15 2006 at 11:43 AM Rating: Decent
Should I be outraged about invasion of privacy or something?

Good on them for not letting such hot evidence be discarded. This crap about suppression of evidence has always annoyed the heck out of me- "Oh no, they held their jaw in a certain fashion that is against the rules! The gun isn't valid evidence anymore!"
#3 Jun 15 2006 at 11:50 AM Rating: Good
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Althrun wrote:
Should I be outraged about invasion of privacy or something?

Good on them for not letting such hot evidence be discarded. This crap about suppression of evidence has always annoyed the heck out of me- "Oh no, they held their jaw in a certain fashion that is against the rules! The gun isn't valid evidence anymore!"


People usually feel a bit touchy about having their property rummaged through on a policeman's whim, or of risking dangerous precedents.
#4 Jun 15 2006 at 11:54 AM Rating: Decent
If they have a warrant, then it's not a whim.

I don't like the thought of having others barge into my home and start throwing thing around looking for evidence of a crime any more than the next guy.

So, I just keep my nose clean, so that they won't ever need to. Or at the least, won't have as much reason to.


Edited, Jun 15th 2006 at 12:58pm EDT by Althrun
#5 Jun 15 2006 at 12:03 PM Rating: Excellent
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Althrun wrote:
Should I be outraged about invasion of privacy or something?
I don't care if you are or not. I'm just reporting on a series of SCOTUS cases involving the 4th Amendment and its interpretation. If there's a shift from 90 years of precedent, it certainly seems noteworthy -- regardless of whether you agree or not.
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#6 Jun 15 2006 at 12:07 PM Rating: Decent
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People usually feel a bit touchy about having their property rummaged through on a policeman's whim, or of risking dangerous precedents


Quote:
If they have a warrant, then it's not a whim.

I don't like the thought of having others barge into my home and start throwing thing around looking for evidence of a crime any more than the next guy.

So, I just keep my nose clean, so that they won't ever need to. Or at the least, won't have as much reason to.


Kudos to you good sir.

If they have a warrant they should be jumping through windows and chainsawing the door in half...
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#7 Jun 15 2006 at 12:08 PM Rating: Decent
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I'm outraged! I should have a least a few seconds to flush the evidence down the toilet before the cops come in my home! This is America!



#8 Jun 15 2006 at 12:10 PM Rating: Decent
MYteddy wrote:
Quote:
People usually feel a bit touchy about having their property rummaged through on a policeman's whim, or of risking dangerous precedents


Quote:
If they have a warrant, then it's not a whim.

I don't like the thought of having others barge into my home and start throwing thing around looking for evidence of a crime any more than the next guy.

So, I just keep my nose clean, so that they won't ever need to. Or at the least, won't have as much reason to.


Kudos to you good sir.

If they have a warrant they should be jumping through windows and chainsawing the door in half...



Ahh, Slippery Slope, how I missed thee.
#9 Jun 15 2006 at 1:07 PM Rating: Decent
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O.o

Que?
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#10 Jun 15 2006 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Jawbox wrote:
I'm outraged! I should have a least a few seconds to flush the evidence down the toilet before the cops come in my home! This is America!
The counter-argument, off the top of my head, would be that, until convicted, you are a free (nominally innocent) citizen of the United States and have property rights which should include not having agents of the government waltzing into your private residence unannounced.
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#11 Jun 15 2006 at 1:35 PM Rating: Decent
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The counter-argument, off the top of my head, would be that, until convicted, you are a free (nominally innocent) citizen of the United States and have property rights which should include not having agents of the government waltzing into your private residence unannounced



Though with a warrant there is a reason to question your "...free (nominally innocent)..." citizenship. Though I agree with you that it is a good arguement, I doubt it has any wieght.
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#12 Jun 15 2006 at 2:04 PM Rating: Decent
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The Fourth Amendment wrote:
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


Am I missing something? Nothing about knocking or even announcing. They had a warrant, they announced themselves ("said Detroit police acknowledge violating that rule when they called out their presence at a man's door then went inside three seconds to five seconds later.") and only failed to knock.

They had a warrant, they went in. I'm not sure how this violates either the letter or spirit of law, as it was announced that the police were there.
#13 Jun 15 2006 at 2:05 PM Rating: Decent
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Though with a warrant there is a reason to question your "...free (nominally innocent)..." citizenship. Though I agree with you that it is a good arguement, I doubt it has any wieght.

Flatly, no. There is no reason to doubt (legally) until a jury of your peers finds otherwise.
#14 Jun 15 2006 at 2:15 PM Rating: Excellent
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AngryUndead wrote:
Am I missing something? Nothing about knocking or even announcing.
As I understood the story (and I haven't read the dissenting opinion as of this time), you're missing the ninety years of SCOTUS precedent as to what constituted a "reasonable" search vs an unreasonable one. "Reasonable" is subjective so it goes to the justice system to determine what qualifies. This case would seem to matter because it changes a ninety year old definition of the term in this circumstance.
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#15 Jun 15 2006 at 2:19 PM Rating: Decent
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Jophiel wrote:
AngryUndead wrote:
Am I missing something? Nothing about knocking or even announcing.
As I understood the story (and I haven't read the dissenting opinion as of this time), you're missing the ninety years of SCOTUS precedent as to what constituted a "reasonable" search vs an unreasonable one. "Reasonable" is subjective so it goes to the justice system to determine what qualifies. This case would seem to matter because it changes a ninety year old definition of the term in this circumstance.


No, I caught that. I'm just confused as why that was "Reasonable" in the first place.

I'm not entirely convinced that it isn't reasonable, but it seems like an announcement of some form should satisfy everyone, and that seems reasonable... what makes announcing and knocking reasonable but not the announcement itself.

Edited, Jun 15th 2006 at 3:20pm EDT by AngryUndead
#16 Jun 15 2006 at 2:21 PM Rating: Decent
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AngryUndead wrote:
Quote:
Though with a warrant there is a reason to question your "...free (nominally innocent)..." citizenship. Though I agree with you that it is a good arguement, I doubt it has any wieght.

Flatly, no. There is no reason to doubt (legally) until a jury of your peers finds otherwise.

So I guess the term "suspect" is a suspicion of innocence? Smiley: confused




although I keep hearing more-and-more the phrase "person of interest" instead....

#17 Jun 15 2006 at 2:29 PM Rating: Decent
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So... how are they going to manage that great build up of suspense on COPS now?

No more stopping to shout through the door is going to give the cameraman less time to position himself for the big rush in.

The supreme court obviously didn't consider the entertainment value of the current methods.



#18 Jun 15 2006 at 2:32 PM Rating: Good
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Jawbox wrote:
AngryUndead wrote:
Quote:
Though with a warrant there is a reason to question your "...free (nominally innocent)..." citizenship. Though I agree with you that it is a good arguement, I doubt it has any wieght.

Flatly, no. There is no reason to doubt (legally) until a jury of your peers finds otherwise.

So I guess the term "suspect" is a suspicion of innocence? Smiley: confused




although I keep hearing more-and-more the phrase "person of interest" instead....


Are you of the impression that someone suspected of committing an act is someone considered to be guilty of an act, rather than their being an ambiguous nature as to the status of the person's guilt?
#19 Jun 15 2006 at 2:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Flatly, no. There is no reason to doubt (legally) until a jury of your peers finds otherwise


Quote:
So I guess the term "suspect" is a suspicion of innocence?


Thats what I thought. If there is a warrant then obviously there is evidence or suspicion of evidence against you in a crime you have committed or in the act there of.

Quote:
Are you of the impression that someone suspected of committing an act is someone considered to be guilty of an act, rather than their being an ambiguous nature as to the status of the person's guilt?


No, suspicion of guilt. Not affirmation.


*edited to address the post above*

Edited, Jun 15th 2006 at 3:36pm EDT by MYteddy
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#20 Jun 15 2006 at 2:39 PM Rating: Decent
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Vensuvio wrote:
Are you of the impression that someone suspected of committing an act is someone considered to be guilty of an act, rather than their being an ambiguous nature as to the status of the person's guilt?

Is that a serious question?



#21 Jun 15 2006 at 6:28 PM Rating: Good
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AngryUndead wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
AngryUndead wrote:
Am I missing something? Nothing about knocking or even announcing.
As I understood the story (and I haven't read the dissenting opinion as of this time), you're missing the ninety years of SCOTUS precedent as to what constituted a "reasonable" search vs an unreasonable one. "Reasonable" is subjective so it goes to the justice system to determine what qualifies. This case would seem to matter because it changes a ninety year old definition of the term in this circumstance.


No, I caught that. I'm just confused as why that was "Reasonable" in the first place.


Pretty much the same position I'm taking on this. Dunno. If 90 years of SCOTUS precident essentially built up the idea that a minor mistake in police action should allow any and all evidence collected as a result, no matter how inconsequential to the mistake, to be inadmissable, then I don't really have a problem with it.

I've also always been incredibly annoyed at the ridiculous lengths and rigid interpretation of "reasonable search" that's been historically employeed. Politics aside, did the fact that the police did not knock change the evidence in any way? The rules for knocking and announcing are really about politeness and respect for the citizenry. They should not and really should never have been interpreted as something critical to the constitutional collection of evidence in a criminal case.


If this is the best the Left can come up with that the "evil conservative controlled SCOTUS" is doing, I'm not really too concerned. That's certainly a bit partisan of me, but in the context of Liberal rulings like Kelo v New London, I'm not sure how this even shows up on the "our rights are being violated" radar...
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#22 Jun 15 2006 at 8:49 PM Rating: Decent
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gbaji wrote:
AngryUndead wrote:
Jophiel wrote:
AngryUndead wrote:
Am I missing something? Nothing about knocking or even announcing.
As I understood the story (and I haven't read the dissenting opinion as of this time), you're missing the ninety years of SCOTUS precedent as to what constituted a "reasonable" search vs an unreasonable one. "Reasonable" is subjective so it goes to the justice system to determine what qualifies. This case would seem to matter because it changes a ninety year old definition of the term in this circumstance.


No, I caught that. I'm just confused as why that was "Reasonable" in the first place.


Pretty much the same position I'm taking on this. Dunno. If 90 years of SCOTUS precident essentially built up the idea that a minor mistake in police action should allow any and all evidence collected as a result, no matter how inconsequential to the mistake, to be inadmissable, then I don't really have a problem with it.

I've also always been incredibly annoyed at the ridiculous lengths and rigid interpretation of "reasonable search" that's been historically employeed. Politics aside, did the fact that the police did not knock change the evidence in any way? The rules for knocking and announcing are really about politeness and respect for the citizenry. They should not and really should never have been interpreted as something critical to the constitutional collection of evidence in a criminal case.


If this is the best the Left can come up with that the "evil conservative controlled SCOTUS" is doing, I'm not really too concerned. That's certainly a bit partisan of me, but in the context of Liberal rulings like Kelo v New London, I'm not sure how this even shows up on the "our rights are being violated" radar...


You had me until you started talking about the left.

My question is what was reasonable before this? Ninety years of precedent means that there were precedents set before that. Why was it changed? I'd like the police to knock, but if I'm brewing Meth, I can't honestly expect it.
#23 Jun 15 2006 at 9:54 PM Rating: Good
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AngryUndead wrote:
You had me until you started talking about the left.


You are aware that a major political talking point of the Left is that if Conservatives gain power, they'll stack the court with conservative justices and all our rights and freedoms will magically disapate, right? It's a relevant point. It's even arguable that Joph would not have been aware of this case, heard about it, much less bothered to post it, if there wasn't currently an agenda from the Left to highlight any case by the current court to try to imply that the Right is in fact destroying our freedoms.

Do you think it's a coincidence that we've seen two such posts in the last couple weeks about two different cases? Where do you think the people who posted them got the information? Who do you think made sure that there were articles written about them (and in the context of "the conservative court making a move against the 4th amendment)? C'mon. Open your eyes. You can do it...


Quote:
My question is what was reasonable before this? Ninety years of precedent means that there were precedents set before that. Why was it changed? I'd like the police to knock, but if I'm brewing Meth, I can't honestly expect it.


Well. First off, you have to realize that when Joph talks about "90 years of precedent", that's referring to our current use of court issued warrants in general as an extension of our 4th amendment rights. The idea that if you fail to do something like knock before entering that all the evidence will be tainted and inadmissable in court is a relative new feature. It's a "progressive" movement (if you will) of the ideology that if a reasonable amount of protection of the accused is good, then a ridiculous amount of protection must be better.

And that is something that grew over time. Something which many people think is ridiculous. But something that Liberals are loathe to do anything about because if they were to start questioning the ideology of progressiveness, then they'd have to question about 90% of their own agenda. So they accept the patently ridiculous (like throwing out evidence seized with a proper warrant because an officer didn't knock on the door) because they don't want to have to logically examine all the other cases of progressive change that they've made over time.
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#24 Jun 15 2006 at 9:55 PM Rating: Excellent
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AngryUndead wrote:
You had me until you started talking about the left.
It's always about the Left with him.
Quote:
My question is what was reasonable before this? Ninety years of precedent means that there were precedents set before that. Why was it changed?
Quite possibly the question was never brought before the higher courts and there was no legal precedent set before that.
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#25 Jun 15 2006 at 10:01 PM Rating: Excellent
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gbaji wrote:
Do you think it's a coincidence that we've seen two such posts in the last couple weeks about two different cases? Where do you think the people who posted them got the information? Who do you think made sure that there were articles written about them (and in the context of "the conservative court making a move against the 4th amendment)?
I posted the previous thread about it, try as you might to paint it as a Liberal Conspiracy, it was obvious in the first thread that it was a unanimously decided case.

OMG Liberal Media and the Conservative Court!!!

Ok, now is when you start up with the "Ok Joph. But consider this..." Smiley: laugh
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#26 Jun 16 2006 at 5:49 AM Rating: Decent
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You are aware that a major political talking point of the Left is that if Conservatives gain power, they'll stack the court with conservative justices and all our rights and freedoms will magically disapate, right?


Yeah, thank god that isn't happening.

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