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#1 Jun 05 2006 at 1:13 PM Rating: Excellent
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Army Manual to Skip Geneva Detainee Rule
The Defenders of Justice and Liberty wrote:
WASHINGTON — The Pentagon has decided to omit from new detainee policies a key tenet of the Geneva Convention that explicitly bans "humiliating and degrading treatment," according to knowledgeable military officials, a step that would mark a further, potentially permanent, shift away from strict adherence to international human rights standards.

The decision could culminate a lengthy debate within the Defense Department but will not become final until the Pentagon makes new guidelines public, a step that has been delayed. However, the State Department fiercely opposes the military's decision to exclude Geneva Convention protections and has been pushing for the Pentagon and White House to reconsider, the Defense Department officials acknowledged.
[...]
The directive on interrogation, a senior defense official said, is being rewritten to create safeguards so that all detainees are treated humanely but can still be questioned effectively.
[...]
But the exclusion of the Geneva provisions may make it more difficult for the administration to portray such incidents as aberrations. And it undercuts contentions that U.S. forces follow the strictest, most broadly accepted standards when fighting wars.
[...]
The detainee directive was due to be released in late April along with the Army Field Manual on interrogation. But objections from several senators on other Field Manual issues forced a delay. The senators objected to provisions allowing harsher interrogation techniques for those considered unlawful combatants, such as suspected terrorists, as opposed to traditional prisoners of war.

The lawmakers say that differing standards of treatment allowed by the Field Manual would violate a broadly supported anti-torture measure advanced by Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz.). McCain last year pushed Congress to ban torture and cruel treatment and to establish the Army Field Manual as the standard for treatment of all detainees. Despite administration opposition, the measure passed and became law.
[...]
Among the directives being rewritten following Bush's 2002 order is one governing U.S. detention operations. Military lawyers and other defense officials wanted the redrawn version of the document known as DoD Directive 2310, to again embrace Common Article 3 of the Geneva Convention.

That provision — known as a "common" article because it is part of each of the four Geneva pacts approved in 1949 — bans torture and cruel treatment. Unlike other Geneva provisions, Article 3 covers all detainees — whether they are held as unlawful combatants or traditional prisoners of war. The protections for detainees in Article 3 go beyond the McCain amendment by specifically prohibiting humiliation, treatment that falls short of cruelty or torture.

The move to restore U.S. adherence to Article 3 was opposed by officials from Vice President **** Cheney's office and by the Pentagon's intelligence arm, government sources said. David S. Addington, Cheney's chief of staff, and Stephen A. Cambone, Defense undersecretary for intelligence, said it would restrict the United States' ability to question detainees.

The Pentagon tried to satisfy some of the military lawyers' concerns by including some protections of Article 3 in the new policy, most notably a ban on inhumane treatment, but refused to embrace the actual Geneva standard in the directive it planned to issue.
[...]
Common Article 3 was originally written to cover civil wars, when one side of the conflict was not a state and therefore could not have signed the Geneva Convention.

In his February 2002 order, Bush wrote that he determined that "Common Article 3 of Geneva does not apply to either Al Qaeda or Taliban detainees, because, among other reasons, the relevant conflicts are international in scope and Common Article 3 applies only to 'armed conflict not of an international character.' "

Some legal scholars say Bush's interpretation is far too narrow. Article 3 was intended to apply to all wars as a sort of minimum set of standards, and that is how Geneva is customarily interpreted, they say.

But top administration officials contend that after the Sept. 11 attacks, old customs do not apply, especially to a fight against terrorists or insurgents who never play by the rules.
Full article is linked above.

Not that I expect either side will have brilliant new observations to make but I thought it was worth being informed.
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#2 Jun 05 2006 at 1:19 PM Rating: Decent
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A_Torture_Thread_3107

followed by Flea's

Waste of Time



Coincidence? You be the judge.
#3 Jun 05 2006 at 1:29 PM Rating: Excellent
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Fate lumped them together as examples of the administration's folly! Smiley: wink2
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#4 Jun 05 2006 at 1:31 PM Rating: Good
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Jophiel wrote:
Fate lumped them together as examples of the administration's folly! Smiley: wink2
Shh. It's a diversonary tactic used by the Right!
#5 Jun 05 2006 at 1:33 PM Rating: Decent
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Liberal Bias! Quick...heads in the sand!
#6 Jun 05 2006 at 1:36 PM Rating: Decent
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America ignoring the geneva convention? well i never....

Someone pass me the Twinnings, one needs a cup of Englands finest to get over the shock Smiley: rolleyes
#7 Jun 05 2006 at 2:08 PM Rating: Good
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Mehh. Shoddy wording.

Not once does that article mention 'brown people'.

Clearly a Hoax.

oh, and tarv. Quit being a snob. You drink PG Tips like the rest of us, right?
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#8 Jun 05 2006 at 2:10 PM Rating: Good
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He may, but that's not who pays his sponsorship fees.
#9 Jun 05 2006 at 8:10 PM Rating: Excellent
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Is A_Torture_Thread_3107 higher hitpoints than a_firebeatle_01?

I miss a_firebeatle_01!
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#10 Jun 05 2006 at 9:45 PM Rating: Good
Thanks for linking this, Joph. Unsurprisingly, I hadn't heard anything about this before now. This is... disturbing.
#11 Jun 05 2006 at 9:59 PM Rating: Decent
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Well hell. I know at least someone's waiting for me to make an appearance, so why not?

I'm not so sure about the intepretation that the "not of an international character" means that it does not apply to Al-qaeda members, but I'm not sure if that's the most relevant argument here.

Article 3 is a "common article" because it (and articles 1 and 2) appear in all of the Geneva Conventions. Each one "starts" at article 4.

IMO, the more relevant argument is that terrorists (specifically those captured in Iraq and Afghanistan and being held in locations like Gitmo) fall under the 4th Geneva Convention (they are not PoWs, injured soldiers, or shipwrecked persons). They are civilians who've chosen to partake in violent actions against the occupying power. As such, they fall under article 5 of that Convention, which explicitly states that they lose the protections which the convention would otherwise provide. That loss presumably includes those protections provided by article 3 of the same convention.

Under article 5, the only guarantee they have is that they must be treated "with humanity", and that if they are charged with a crime (and there's no requirement that they must), that they be granted a fair and reasonable one (and I believe the "no death penalty" applies in this case as well, but I'd have to check to be sure).

Dunno. Just more of the same.
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#12 Jun 05 2006 at 10:01 PM Rating: Good
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I think the overarching point is that you probably shouldn't do morally repugnant things to people regardless of what's writted down somewhere regarding it.

Not to mention it's not any more effective and never has been.

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#13 Jun 05 2006 at 10:18 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:
I think the overarching point is that you probably shouldn't do morally repugnant things to people regardless of what's writted down somewhere regarding it.


Sure. That's a great position. The problem is that some people's definition of "morally repugnant" includes any sort of detention, any sort of interrogation, and any reduction in communication.

Somewhere between strapping electrodes to someone's ********* and giving them free massages and internet access is a happy medium that most people can live with. And I'd argue that the treatment of prisoners in say Gitmo is pretty close to that medium.

Additionally, the article wasn't about any specific acts that may or may not be being performed and which may or may not be "morally repugnant". It was specifically about those definitions written down somewhere, and which ones applied when and where. Seems reasonable to respond to an article about such definitions (from the GC even!) with information about those same conventions.


But hey. We can sidetrack ourselves into a discussion about the treatment of baby harp seals in the artic if you want, but that would be similarly off topic.
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#14 Jun 05 2006 at 10:44 PM Rating: Good
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I'd argue that the treatment of prisoners in say Gitmo is pretty close to that medium.


What, in your strange fantasy world do you think the treatment consists of?

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Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#15 Jun 06 2006 at 6:11 PM Rating: Decent
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Smasharoo wrote:

I'd argue that the treatment of prisoners in say Gitmo is pretty close to that medium.


What, in your strange fantasy world do you think the treatment consists of?


Hmmm... Individual cells larger then those in most general population prisons in the US. 3 square meals a day. Full medical care. Access to religious worship. Pretty much the same or better treatment then you'd get in any standard prison in the US.

Aside from the fact that they can be interrogated, denied communication with the outside world (although most of them are allowed to send and recieve letters), and held "for the duration", their treatment is no different then any other prisoner.

And those things are all allowed under the 4th Geneva Convention. So yeah, their treatment is about where it should be.
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#16 Jun 06 2006 at 6:16 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Pretty much the same or better treatment then you'd get in any standard prison in the US.
You do know that the rest of the world views your penal system as an abomination, right?
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#17 Jun 06 2006 at 7:35 PM Rating: Good
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Nobby wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Pretty much the same or better treatment then you'd get in any standard prison in the US.
You do know that the rest of the world views your penal system as an abomination, right?


No I don't actually. Care to provide a source for that assertion?

I'm aware that much of the world views the death penalty as an abomination, but that's a separate and wholey irrelevant issue in this context. I'd love it if you could provide some evidence that the actual treatment of prisoners inside US prisons is viewed so negatively around the world.

It's just surprising to me because here in the US, there's a lot of people who think we're way too soft on prisoners.
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#18 Jun 06 2006 at 7:43 PM Rating: Good
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gbaji wrote:
Care to provide a source for that assertion?
F[Aqua][/Aqua]uck Off
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#19 Jun 06 2006 at 7:46 PM Rating: Good
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Fu[Aquamarine][/Aquamarine]ck yeah!
You know what they make you do in county? Toss the salad!
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#20 Jun 06 2006 at 7:48 PM Rating: Excellent
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Nobby wrote:
gbaji wrote:
Care to provide a source for that assertion?
F[Aqua][/Aqua]uck Off
Buuuurrrnnnn!!! Smiley: laugh
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Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
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