Forum Settings
       
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

My-Lai II?Follow

#1 Jun 01 2006 at 3:42 PM Rating: Good
Ministry of Silly Cnuts
*****
19,524 posts
Article

Quote:
Ethics lessons for US Iraq troops

US-led troops in Iraq are to undergo ethical training in the wake of the alleged murder of civilians in Haditha.

For the next 30 days, they will receive lessons in "core warrior values", a military statement said.

Correspondents say Haditha, where US marines are suspected of massacring up to 24 Iraqi civilians, could have a huge effect on US public opinion.

../..

eports from Iraqi witnesses and in the US media allege that marines went on a rampage, killing civilians, including women and children, without provocation, after one of their colleagues was killed by the bomb.

US media quoting military sources have said several marines are likely to be charged with murder.


Still waiting for the outcome of the inquiry, but there seems to be significant "expectation management" coming out of the pentagon.

Could this overshadow Abu-Ghraib and become another My-Lai?
____________________________
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
#2 Jun 01 2006 at 3:46 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Ahhh... ethical training! Of course!

No one ever told the soldiers not to slaughter innocent women and children. Our bad.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#3 Jun 01 2006 at 4:17 PM Rating: Good
*****
18,463 posts
I would pay extra tax dollars into a study that would investigate why Marines are such as[Papayawhip][/Papayawhip]sholes.

I also know that they get de-briefed upon their return from deployment, but I feel like they should get some anger management throughout or something to make sure they're coping right.

Edited, Thu Jun 1 17:26:29 2006 by Atomicflea
#4 Jun 01 2006 at 4:20 PM Rating: Default
It's one of those things they are taught. How do you make boys think they are God like without somehow turning them into as[Aliceblue][/Aliceblue]sholes?

Edited, Thu Jun 1 17:21:05 2006 by Katie
#5 Jun 01 2006 at 6:04 PM Rating: Excellent
They are different when they come back, who wouldn't be. I am sure the stress is horrible, that anger and fear make them do things they wouldn't normally. It doesn't make it right or excuse them. Bad times for the marines are coming. Just from seeing the change in my EX though, I can tell you "Core Value" training is not going to have as much impact as the murder charges will!
#6 Jun 01 2006 at 6:40 PM Rating: Default
****
4,575 posts

Quote:
US media quoting military sources have said several marines are likely to be charged with murder.


Charged, but not guilty yet.

I was just thinking, no one seems to be making a stink about the European and American civilians who are killed...recently the journalists.

Or how about the first American guy (forgot his name) who was there and got his head cut off in a video that circulated around the world?

Gee, we need to remind our American Marines not to kill potential enemy personnel because they might be in or around civilians, so they only can shoot once they actually have visual on the enemy pointing a gun at them or throwing a grenade at them.




#7 Jun 01 2006 at 10:15 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
bluegayle wrote:
Gee, we need to remind our American Marines not to kill potential enemy personnel because they might be in or around civilians, so they only can shoot once they actually have visual on the enemy pointing a gun at them or throwing a grenade at them.
That's a hell of an argument.

And, if not for the fact that the Marines were charged with intentionally and knowingly killing civilians, it might even be relevant. Maybe you can save it for a different debate -- it'd be a shame to let a gem like that go wasted.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#8 Jun 01 2006 at 10:56 PM Rating: Default
The underlying glee and hope by some that the aleged events are true is disgusting. The desire to taint and distort all events through the worst least common actions is shameful if not bordering on traiterous, especially in the name of petty politics. But selling out the freedom of Americans to advance radical socialist and communist causes is a long long history with these types.
#9 Jun 01 2006 at 11:12 PM Rating: Decent
****
4,575 posts
Quote:
That's a hell of an argument.


My comment was sarcasm but since I failed in making that apparent to all readers, then I'll say it here. Wait till all the evidence is in, regardless of how the soldiers involved will end up, and even then, this isn't a My Lai at all. We, as a nation, need to be prepared that there will be unexpected casualties, including civilians, including little kids who get too close to the action.

I think back on WWII and USA fought on 3 fronts against 3 different countries (Western Europe, North Africa, Pacific Islands). Freakin' A is what I think about USA at that time.

I don't want USA to back out of a country like Iraq due to American public pressure. If we learned nothing from how poorly we treated returning Vietnam War vets, then I don't know what else to say about the people who make the news here complaining about our troops compared to the silent people who really support our troops by not giving verbal aid and comfort to the enemy.

We watch movies and we feel sympathy for Rambo and American Ninja running to save the POWs on celluloid, or see a movie like Black Hawk Down and Saving Private Ryan and we feel patriotic but we can't do the same for real soldiers in real life and death situations?




#10 Jun 01 2006 at 11:21 PM Rating: Good
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts

I would pay extra tax dollars into a study that would investigate why Marines are such ********.


I concurr. What we really need is a bunch of soldiers trained to kill people *while practicing really good manners*.

This has nothing to do with training. No one's training anyone to kill civilians or not care about civillians or to be anything but dispassionate and presicse as possible when deciding to kill an enemy. They just snapped. It happens. It's happened before, it'll happen again, it'll allways happen. When you put people under tremendous emotional stress they sometimes react badly.

When they react badly by slaughtering civlians with rifle's they're terrible murders. When they react badly by slaughtering civilians by ordering cruise missles fired, they get re-elected. The world's a crazy place, eh?
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#11 Jun 01 2006 at 11:24 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts

We watch movies and we feel sympathy for Rambo and American Ninja running to save the POWs on celluloid, or see a movie like Black Hawk Down and Saving Private Ryan and we feel patriotic but we can't do the same for real soldiers in real life and death situations?


No. Because ONE'S A FUCKING MOVIE. I realize no really cares much about the diffrence anymore, but oddly it still matters.

This from all apearances isn't a case of someone shooting at a bad guy and missing and killing the kid with the ice cream cone. This is a case of the bad guy killing a good guy and running away, and then 10 good guys killing the kid with the ice cream cone because they can't find the bad guy but just have to shoot SOMEONE.

That's not something to feel patriotic about. Sorry.
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#12 Jun 01 2006 at 11:32 PM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
bluegayle wrote:
My comment was sarcasm
No sh[Aqua][/Aqua]it?

OMG, mine was too!!!

Smiley: dubious
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#13 Jun 01 2006 at 11:39 PM Rating: Default
Right, you prosecute the specific actions as murder if that's indeed what it was. Those actions say nothing at all about the other war actions however, in the same way the latest gang banger drive by on the streets of an American city also says nothing about the Iraq War. Invoking some "My-Lai" rallying cry for political points is disgusting; as disgusting as the wackos who chant "god hates ****" at the funerals of dead American soldiers.

All it shows is that this type of event has been gleefully hoped for by those invoking the analogy. Especially since these people are totally silent when it comes to indiscriminate suicide bombers. Suicide bombings are reported as straight forward factual actions without the underlying gleeful or disdainful tone. Inserting underlying tone on an event like this shows the burning hypocricy and underlying politcal agenda.
#14 Jun 01 2006 at 11:45 PM Rating: Decent
Lunatic
******
30,086 posts

Invoking some "My-Lai" rallying cry for political points is disgusting;


Not as disgusting as thinking My-Lai wasn't identical in terms of being wholesale slaughter of civillians.

What the fuck are you talking about? Tell me your position really isn't that it's ok to use 9-11 as a rallying cry to invade a country not remotely involved in any way, but that if during that invasion our representatives there murder innocent people that it's not ok to point out that that may be a bad thing?

How can you breath with all that sand in your mouth?
____________________________
Disclaimer:

To make a long story short, I don't take any responsibility for anything I post here. It's not news, it's not truth, it's not serious. It's parody. It's satire. It's bitter. It's angsty. Your mother's a *****. You like to jack off dogs. That's right, you heard me. You like to grab that dog by the bone and rub it like a ski pole. Your dad? Gay. Your priest? Straight. **** off and let me post. It's not true, it's all in good fun. Now go away.

#15 Jun 02 2006 at 12:06 AM Rating: Default
"Murder"? I don't think I've ever heard the word "murder" used to describe any indiscriminate bombings by unidentified non-military "combattants". I've heard "killed". Why "murdered" this time and not "killed"?

And like Iraq was a "Country" and not just some border ruled by a ruthless dictator intent on suppressing his "own 'people'" and also a threat to the United States in the form of supplying terrorists with the means of terror.

Wholesale slaughter of civilians? Daily, weekly, like planted bombs and bombs specifically aimed at killing innocent civilians? Well damn why did it take so long for this wholesale slaughter of civilians to occur when the U.S. military is loaded with destructive power? Wholesale slaughter of civilians my ***.
#16 Jun 02 2006 at 1:23 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
BBC wrote:
But a report filed by Iraqi police accused US troops of rounding up and deliberately shooting 11 people in the house, including five children and four women, before blowing up the building.

The video tape obtained by the BBC shows a number of dead adults and children at the site with what our world affairs editor John Simpson says were clearly gunshot wounds.

The pictures came from a hardline Sunni group opposed to


http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/5039420.stm

Apparently a baby about 6 months old was one of the ones rounded up and killed in the attack.




Edited, Fri Jun 2 02:26:38 2006 by bodhisattva
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
#17 Jun 02 2006 at 1:58 AM Rating: Decent
***
1,463 posts
In the Punic Wars Rome got its *** handed to it time and time again by Hannibal and his army of Spanish mercenaries. By every convention of the day, Rome "lost." Rome should have sought terms to get Hannibal and his army to leave. This is what Hannibal wanted.

But Rome didn't. Rome threw army after army at Hannibal. Whole legions were destroyed. When that didn't work, Rome fought a war of attrition against him.

Finally, Hannibal had to leave Italy. Many years later, Hannibal killed himself living in exhile in the Middle East as he discovered that Roman agents had come for him - and his host was going to turn him over.

Rome destroyed Carthage, Hannibal's city, and either killed all its inhabitants or sold them into slavery.

Anyway, I don't want our Marines killing civilians. But our holier-than-thou approach to war isn't going to work - at least I don't see how.
#18 Jun 02 2006 at 6:49 AM Rating: Default
LOL, holier than thou approach? Compared to say Japanese treatment of Chinese civilians in WWII? German treatment of POWs? Russian treatment? We should adopt the standards of current African tribes? Mexican jails? By historical standards the overall actions of the US military is far more respectful of human rights in general than anyone you want to make comparisons to.

The global press calling this a "massacre" while it does not do the same for the daily bombings reaks of hypocricy. Of course we now know the Frech were apologizing for Sadam Hussein's atrocities and war crimes because they were taking bribes. The other apologists for terrorism have their own far left socialist agendas to advance as they seek wholesale smearing of American soldiers.

If a few Marines murdered innocent civilians they should and will be prosecuted for murder. Now how bout you guys hold the terrorists to the same standards and stop apologising for their atrocities by ignorning properly scaled degrees of condemination regarding daily indiscriminate intentional murders done by the true enemies of human rights. The rest of the world community has gotten oh so good at standing by and apologising for the grossest of human rights violations, as long as they occur in socialist States. Lets see the same investigative and moral outrage energy spotlighted on the true evils. Maybe if that was the case, your faux outrage regarding a specific incident and a few members of the U.S. military wouldnt reak of such hypocricy.
#19 Jun 02 2006 at 7:54 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
MonxDoT wrote:
If a few Marines murdered innocent civilians they should and will be prosecuted for murder. Now how bout you guys hold the terrorists to the same standards and stop apologising for their atrocities by ignorning properly scaled degrees of condemination regarding daily indiscriminate intentional murders done by the true enemies of human rights. The rest of the world community has gotten oh so good at standing by and apologising for the grossest of human rights violations, as long as they occur in socialist States. Lets see the same investigative and moral outrage energy spotlighted on the true evils. Maybe if that was the case, your faux outrage regarding a specific incident and a few members of the U.S. military wouldnt reak of such hypocricy.
There's so many flaws of logic and false premises in there, I'm not sure where to begin.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#20 Jun 02 2006 at 8:49 AM Rating: Decent
Jophiel wrote:
MonxDoT wrote:
If a few Marines murdered innocent civilians they should and will be prosecuted for murder. Now how bout you guys hold the terrorists to the same standards and stop apologising for their atrocities by ignorning properly scaled degrees of condemination regarding daily indiscriminate intentional murders done by the true enemies of human rights. The rest of the world community has gotten oh so good at standing by and apologising for the grossest of human rights violations, as long as they occur in socialist States. Lets see the same investigative and moral outrage energy spotlighted on the true evils. Maybe if that was the case, your faux outrage regarding a specific incident and a few members of the U.S. military wouldnt reak of such hypocricy.
There's so many flaws of logic and false premises in there, I'm not sure where to begin.


MonxDoT wrote:
If
#21 Jun 02 2006 at 9:05 AM Rating: Good
*****
18,463 posts
Smasharoo wrote:

I would pay extra tax dollars into a study that would investigate why Marines are such ********.


I concurr. What we really need is a bunch of soldiers trained to kill people *while practicing really good manners*.

I wasn't talking specifically about the killings, although I will address that later. What I meant by my original post was that I have never met a Marine who wasn't a total fu[/Blanchedalmond]ckhead with an overinflated sense of ego and importance in the overall scheme of things, and I lived and went to school/work with a bunch of them. I'm not talking about training, although I agree with Katie that some amount of circlejerking and head-inflating probably serves them well in the situations in which they're expected to be placed. Unless you can show me how ordering lunch at Applebee's or picking up suits from the dry cleaners places them in enough mental stress to snap and turn into di[Coral]ckwads, that is.

As far as the killings, I understand that stressful situations cause people to snap. What I wonder is if the Marines have any psychiatrists or counselors at hand during the course of battle to help minimize the impact or provide outlets and strategies for coping while the anger or impotence is building up. After decades of warfare, it seems like it would be a logical step, since events like these are not only personally damaging and alienating to the communities, but PR disasters that don't help advance the cause which we say we're espousing.
#22 Jun 02 2006 at 9:10 AM Rating: Good
Ministry of Silly Cnuts
*****
19,524 posts
Strange logic out there.

After full investigations have been undertaken with transparency and due process, I condemn all acts of violence against non-combatants.

I was in London on 7/7. I condemn the bombers without reservation. Ditto 9/11, the Madrid bombings, the Birmingham Pub bombings and My Lai.

If the allegations about Haditha are true, I see them no differently at all.

Simple enough for you Monx?

****
____________________________
"I started out with nothin' and I still got most of it left" - Seasick Steve
#23 Jun 02 2006 at 9:14 AM Rating: Excellent
Avatar
******
29,919 posts
Yay red dwarf sig!

It's my understanding that there are indeed quite a few psychiatrists and counselors available, however there is also somewhat of an institutional mistrust of them that is prevelent throughout the corps. There's a perception that going to the shrink for help is not a good rational idea, but instead a sign of weakness. I think that's really where alot of the issue stems from, but then again i have not served int he military and that's all heresay on my part.
____________________________
Arch Duke Kaolian Drachensborn, lvl 95 Ranger, Unrest Server
Tech support forum | FAQ (Support) | Mobile Zam: http://m.zam.com (Premium only)
Forum Rules
#24 Jun 02 2006 at 9:18 AM Rating: Good
*****
18,463 posts
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Yay red dwarf sig!

It's been a rough week here at work. Smiley: laugh

Kao wrote:
It's my understanding that there are indeed quite a few psychiatrists and counselors available, however there is also somewhat of an institutional mistrust of them that is prevelent throughout the corps. There's a perception that going to the shrink for help is not a good rational idea, but instead a sign of weakness. I think that's really where alot of the issue stems from, but then again i have not served int he military and that's all heresay on my part.

Well, if that's the case, it's a shame. There is a significant stigma on the mental health profession as a whole for the same reasons you mentioned ("I'm not crazy, why do I need to see a shrink"), but I can see how it would be augmented by the need for self-preservation kicking in and the refusal to show weakness... Maybe someday people will think of a mental health professional the same way they think of a primary care doctor.
#25 Jun 02 2006 at 9:31 AM Rating: Excellent
Liberal Conspiracy
*******
TILT
Nobby wrote:
Simple enough for you Monx?
No, you need to show sufficent outrage for Monx to decide you're not a hypocrite.
____________________________
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
#26 Jun 02 2006 at 9:41 AM Rating: Good
Drama Nerdvana
******
20,674 posts
The Glorious Atomicflea wrote:
Dread Lörd Kaolian wrote:
Yay red dwarf sig!

It's been a rough week here at work. Smiley: laugh


Tell me about it.

I'm tempted to quit. We are extremely short staffed right now, so it would have that extra sting to management which is having a hard time replacing the people that left, I just don't want to do it this weekend because the few people left will be swamped.
____________________________
Bode - 100 Holy Paladin - Lightbringer
« Previous 1 2
Reply To Thread

Colors Smileys Quote OriginalQuote Checked Help

 

Recent Visitors: 395 All times are in CST
Anonymous Guests (395)