File under "engage brain before opening mouth"Follow

So, this past weekend, Mr. Ambrya (whom I have mentioned before is half Japanese, and looks it in terms of complexion and the shape of his eyes) got new glasses. On his Caucasian side, he's got a rather long, narrow face (or as he puts it, "mom's meat stretched over dad's bones" -- and no, I don't think he intended that to sound as bad as it did. He was, after all, discussing his parents) and his previous rounded lenses really had a bit of an eggheady/Mr. Peeps thing going on that, while far from objectionable, was just a bit dated. So the new specs are much smaller, rectangular, and all kinds of HAWT! But that's another story.

Today one of his coworkers--someone with whom he rarely speaks--noticed the new glasses and this was the comment they made:

"It makes you look more Japanesey! Is that what you were going for?"

Now, my husband has no issues whatsoever about being half Japanese, but it struck him as being a very inappropriate remark to make to a casual coworker, if for no other reason than it's just really not cool the raise the issue of a virtual stranger's racial identity when the person in question hasn't first raised the issue.

We're both laughing it off as being someone who just put their foot in their mouth without ever thinking about how the words they were speaking might come across, but at the same time, we're both a little aghast that anyone could be that blithely tactless in the workplace.

Makes me wonder what the general consensus is. If you have a casual acquaintance/coworker whose racial identity is by no means a topic of conversation (or for that matter, even a sure thing--he doesn't look so Japanese that one could immediately assume that to be his genetic background) is it tacky or acceptable to bring it up?



Edited, Tue May 16 18:10:31 2006 by Ambrya

I would have objected to that remark more on its tone than its content. Race is not a subject I tend to tiptoe around, peronally.

On the other hand I tend to avoid making personal remarks about co-workers' appearances beyond, "I like that shirt" or the equivalent.

So, would I have said that? No. Would I object to something similar being said to me? No.

I've had people comment that I look Irish, because of my coloring. I'm not, but I understand what they mean and I'm certainly not offended.

Unless being Japanese, or being told that you look Japanese, is supposed to be some kind of insult, no, what he said was by no means inappropriate.



No, no, no. I disagree completely. Is a person's race some kind of taboo topic that they should hide and keep to themselves? If everyone is equal, then there should be no reason whatsoever to tap-dance around a person's race.

Edited, Tue May 16 18:27:32 2006 by Eske

It's not that it's an issue which needs to be hidden/kept to oneself, but if one doesn't make his or her race an issue, then why should the people around him or her bring it up?

Basically, I think the problem is that by bringing up someone's race in an unsolicited (and for all you know, unwelcome) way, you're conveying the message that the first--and possibly only-- thing you notice about that person is their skin color/eye shape/whatever. You notice that they are "different."

Let's say you have a large red birthmark covering most of your face. It's not a bad thing, you're comfortable with it being a part of you and aren't ashamed of it, but you don't make an issue of it because you want other people to see things in you that AREN'T the birthmark. Would you like a coworker you barely know to come up to you and say, "I like that shirt, it makes your birthmark look smaller" when you wear a new outfit?

Or, let's say, as a woman, you're rather small in the bust department. One day you wear a new outfit, and a coworker you barely know walks up and says, "I like that outfit, it makes you look bustier." Hasn't that coworker basically just indicated that the very first thing he (or she) notices about you is your boobs?

Both poor examples.

In one, the person who makes the comment about the birthmark is implying that it is a physical flaw by saying that "i like it...it makes your birthmark look smaller". But race is not akin to a physical flaw.

The second one is considered sexual harassment.

A better example is if I'm wearing a particular shirt. It could be any shirt. Point is, it makes me look different than other people, because it is a unique shirt. If someone comes up to me and says, "that shirt makes you look distinct or unique in some way" then I am not going to take offense to that, because it's simply a neutral personal characteristic.

That's what race is. Ideally, there is no reason for anyone to be sensitive about their race, because all races are considered equal. It's a neutral personal characteristic. It may be interesting, have cultural significance, or history. But to suggest that it should be kept hidden or taboo for public discourse is to suggest that there is something negative about it.

EDIT: i'm killing myself with dumb spelling mistakes today...

Edited, Tue May 16 18:45:54 2006 by Eske

Edited, Tue May 16 18:47:53 2006 by Eske

Again I think its the way something is said. For example the same female co-worker could come up and say, "I like that shirt its really flattering". They both would amount to the same thing accept the second phrase is just more palatable to the girl with the small baps.

But when we meet someone the first thing you notice primarily are their looks and any differences to what you consider the "norm". It is how people recognise others normally, as long as you're not overtly rude about someones appearance I don't see it as an issue.

That is quite possibly the best thing since my one University professor who was Mohawk on his fathers side and Finlander on his mothers called himself the "Findian".

Did you talk him out of Hari Kari?

In my opinion, the issue is that a lot of people think that biracial people are supposed to identify with one race over the other.

It can be odd for people you don't really know to say that X makes you look Japanese or anything else because you don't know if that person might be sterotyping you based on what they think Japanese people are like instead of just accepting you for who you are.

I am half Japanese and half White and no one can quite place my racial identity most of the time - but that's cool - makes me feel exotic. HA!

Exactly. We're just talking about somebody simply saying that you resemble a particular race in appearance. If that's all that's said, but you take it as an insult, then you're either reading too much into the comment in an attempt to be overly PC, or you actually think that there is some negative quality associated with race.

EDIT: That was an attempt to add something, but it appears I just took what Smash wrote and phrased it worse. Damn.

Edited, Tue May 16 22:19:52 2006 by Eske

Um, okay. So people with whom I have not specifically shared the fact that I'm female should never make gender specific comments like, "As a woman you've probably been on the receiving end of some pretty lame pickup lines." Cause it would be inappropriate to show any knowledge of the perfectly obvious fact that I'm female.

Got it.

I'm putting words in your mouth?



"All you see is their ethnicity"...who said anything about that?

You see, you're adding inflection and subtext to try to make an otherwise innocuous remark seem like a barb.

Why comment on anything relating to a person's appearance then? Why is it any different than an acceptable comment about someone's appearance? (I highlight 'acceptable' because I don't believe that conversation about someone's breasts serves as a good analogy).

I think the discomfort that you have about the issue stem from years and years of ingrained hyper-sensitivity to anything dealing with race. It's the way everyone is, because of the haphazard use of 'political correctness'.

What's the reason for the discomfort? I know why women would feel uncomfortable talking about their breasts in public. It isn't simply because "it's personal", it's because of long-standing social mores.

Those however, don't exist with a person's race. What we have is that people are being wrongly trained to think that something that outwardly characterises a person physically is something taboo.

Edited, Wed May 17 01:41:00 2006 by Eske

Um...I did. And I never indicated anything other than that was MY interpretation of the way such a remark could come across.



And again, you miss the point. We never considered it a barb. We merely considered it "tacky." As in, lacking in any sense of social grace. Which, should you choose to actually read the original post, was the question that I posed--whether or not such a remark was tacky.



There are some issues which are innocuous enough that one can safely remark on them, and some issues which may or may not push buttons, and therefore simple social decorum dictates that one just doesn't go there. Why couldn't the guy in question simply have told my husband his new glasses looked good? Why add on the ethnic remark at all?

In this case, he was lucky...my husband has no issues about his ethnicity. But what if he had? Many Asian cultures tend to feel their racial identity quite strongly, to the point of being quite bigotted toward other Asian cultures. What if my husband had been one of those, and the guy in question had gotten the culture in question wrong, and assumed that my husband was from ethnic background X when actually he was from ethnic background Y, and felt that identity strongly enough to take offense at the assumption?

In that case, the situation could have gotten quite ugly. The person making the remark was lucky, in that he made it to my husband who doesn't have those issues. But basic common sense and common tact says that if you're not dealing with someone whom you have a level of familiarity with, you don't make those kinds of assumptions, and you certainly don't voice them.



No, it's more years and years of ingrained frustration with watching people say completely tactless, obnoxious things without ever realizing that they're being rude and presumptuous. It's like Americans these days have no sense of decorum, no sense of social boundary. They feel they can go forth and spew whatever ***** enters their heads without any regard for how it might be perceived.



Edited, Wed May 17 01:52:40 2006 by Ambrya