a while back we discussed substituting numbers in a math problem to make them easier to do in your head, then depending on weather you substituted up or down, finding a "reasonable" answer to the problem.
al designed to help kids zip through multiple guess questions on the F-Cat test.
well, we have moved on from finding the fast "reasonable" answer to the next step, under estimating and over estimating with division.
the concept? pretty much the same with substitution. for instance, you have a problem, say, 78 divided by 8. you substitute 78 for 80, then come up with the super fast answer, 10, then say weather your answer was underestimated or overestimated so you can tell weather the correct answer would be higher or lower then your "reasonable" answer.
so, what are we teaching our kids? well, when you buy a car, for instance, you will be able to tell weather you got a "reasonable" amount of change back. or if your in chemistry class, and you want to make water, you will be able to tell the teacher weahter the "3" hydrogen atoms you added to your oxygen atom was "overestimated" or "underestimated".
but you can damn well bet they will be able to complete any standardized multiple guess math test in the time alloted.
this isnt math, it is politics.
welcome to the moral majority, dumbing down america to increase our stats on standardized tests.
well, i have pretty much decided to hire a tutor for my daughter for math and tell her to do the best she can in class but what the tutor teaches her is more important than her math grade in school.
its a terrible thing to do that to a child at such an impressionable age. underminnign her respect for authority figures and sending her down a path that what adults tell her doesnt really matter. but i personally feel that is better than letting her get to high school with **** POOR math skills.
her homework? i told her to solve the problems for the CORRECT answer and write CORRECT estimate in place of overestimated or underestimated.
she will get an F of coarse, as that is not what the teacher wants her to do. but the institution isheading down a dark path, and i feel it is my responsibility to arm her with as much knoledge as possible soshe can make better decisions for herself in the future.
and i prey that when this pack of Idiots leaves the whitehouse in two years, the next addministraition scraps FCAT and lets teachers get back to teaching math as a SCIENCE and not an ART.
Edited, Thu May 11 14:21:01 2006 by shadowrelm
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the new math..continued....Follow
Here is some more "new math" for you all.
111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = the devil.
Thirty-five percent of the people who use words are 5'8.
Banging your head against an ant uses 150 calories an hour.
20252 rhymes with 12,345,678,987,654,321.
Bahhhhh!
111,111,111 x 111,111,111 = the devil.
Thirty-five percent of the people who use words are 5'8.
Banging your head against an ant uses 150 calories an hour.
20252 rhymes with 12,345,678,987,654,321.
Bahhhhh!
No one cared the last two times you cried about your daughter's math class, why do you think this time will be different?
If you have issues with your daughter's curriculum, your gripe is with the district or the state.
If you have issues with your daughter's curriculum, your gripe is with the district or the state.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Quote:
her homework? i told her to solve the problems for the CORRECT answer and write CORRECT estimate in place of overestimated or underestimated.
she will get an F of coarse, as that is not what the teacher wants her to do. but the institution isheading down a dark path, and i feel it is my responsibility to arm her with as much knoledge as possible soshe can make better decisions for herself in the future.
she will get an F of coarse, as that is not what the teacher wants her to do. but the institution isheading down a dark path, and i feel it is my responsibility to arm her with as much knoledge as possible soshe can make better decisions for herself in the future.
Nice job encouraging your daughter to fail. Real moral of you.
Quote:
and i feel it is my responsibility to arm her with as much knoledge as possible
Perhaps you could teach her the estimation of spelling....as long as you are close, it's ok.
Edited, Thu May 11 15:03:53 2006 by Frakkor
Estimating is a great skill to have. It's not a substitute for being able to do the math, but it helps if you know the answer is supposed to be about 10 so that if you push a wrong button on the calculator or misalign a column of numbers, you can often (not always there - one can make compensating errors) recognize a mistake as such.
The state of education is the US is horrible. Clearly no one should be taught only to estimate in place of the exact calculation. That is crazy. Sure, it's a useful tool on standardized singular guess (multiple choice) exams.
Instead of singlar guess, we could have written exams (longhand) or at a minimum a longhand portion. Would we actually hire the army of people needed to grade them? Or should we have no standardized testing at all?
I hate Bush as much as the next guy (of the 67% of the US population who hate him) but some exam > no exam. And public knowledge of the exam results is a good thing (tm).
I'm moving. I want to know about the schools where I'm moving to. A few clicks and I have the exam scores. Yes, it's not perfect. I know that schools where only 35% of the students can pass have serious problems (now, I don't know if a school that has 95% of the students passing actually means the students know how to do it right, or are just well coached - but it narrows the field).
By the way, I actually estimate in my head all the time (for work). I see little point in teaching the technique prior to mastery of the exact algorithm as it will only serve to confuse those trying to learn both.
The state of education is the US is horrible. Clearly no one should be taught only to estimate in place of the exact calculation. That is crazy. Sure, it's a useful tool on standardized singular guess (multiple choice) exams.
Instead of singlar guess, we could have written exams (longhand) or at a minimum a longhand portion. Would we actually hire the army of people needed to grade them? Or should we have no standardized testing at all?
I hate Bush as much as the next guy (of the 67% of the US population who hate him) but some exam > no exam. And public knowledge of the exam results is a good thing (tm).
I'm moving. I want to know about the schools where I'm moving to. A few clicks and I have the exam scores. Yes, it's not perfect. I know that schools where only 35% of the students can pass have serious problems (now, I don't know if a school that has 95% of the students passing actually means the students know how to do it right, or are just well coached - but it narrows the field).
By the way, I actually estimate in my head all the time (for work). I see little point in teaching the technique prior to mastery of the exact algorithm as it will only serve to confuse those trying to learn both.
I see where you are coming from. They should know how to do the math in the first place.
However the point of the lesson is to teach children a certain skillset in which to easily estimate the approximate answer of a math question on a quiz, thereby being able to quickly check their own work to see if its right on a timed test.
So if we have 19x19 for a question and the kid makes a simple mistake in carrying the number and ends up with 135 for an answer he/she can through quick estimation think well 20x20=400 and my answer is no where close, I need to fix that. While it shouldnt be a crutch to lean on it is a helpful skill to be encouraged.
Checking ones own work by estimation. How is that not a useful skill?
It is clear that you are clearly uncapable of understanding the value of the lesson and furthermore by forcing your daughter to do the math 'right' you are hindering her education and marks. For her sake please stop and think about things before you cause her un-needed problems.
However the point of the lesson is to teach children a certain skillset in which to easily estimate the approximate answer of a math question on a quiz, thereby being able to quickly check their own work to see if its right on a timed test.
So if we have 19x19 for a question and the kid makes a simple mistake in carrying the number and ends up with 135 for an answer he/she can through quick estimation think well 20x20=400 and my answer is no where close, I need to fix that. While it shouldnt be a crutch to lean on it is a helpful skill to be encouraged.
Checking ones own work by estimation. How is that not a useful skill?
It is clear that you are clearly uncapable of understanding the value of the lesson and furthermore by forcing your daughter to do the math 'right' you are hindering her education and marks. For her sake please stop and think about things before you cause her un-needed problems.
I must really be trying hard to avoid studying for my algebra final if I am clicking on threads by shadowrelm about math.
Youshutup the Vile wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure that'll work out great ten years down the line when you get a bunch of engineers whose bridge was built to "almost" exact specifications, or a nuclear technician who was "reasonably" sure the rays wouldn't make it through that lead wall.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
shadowrelm wrote:
her homework? i told her to solve the problems for the CORRECT answer and write CORRECT estimate in place of overestimated or underestimated.
Get out your compass and draw a perfect circle. Measure the circumference and diameter of this circle. Divide circumference by diameter. What is the decimal value of your result? Don't post again until you have an exact CORRECT answer. Thanks.
Professor CrescentFresh wrote:
Get out your compass and draw a perfect circle. Measure the circumference and diameter of this circle. Divide circumference by diameter. What is the decimal value of your result? Don't post again until you have an exact CORRECT answer. Thanks.
Done!
Shut the fu[Aqua][/Aqua]ck up about this, for the last time. We've covered the many reasons why you're wrong over and over again, yet you keep reposting this inane rant. Why don't you reread the last two threads and actually learn something?
Oh, I almost forgot. You don't care about solutions. You just want to *****.
Oh, I almost forgot. You don't care about solutions. You just want to *****.
shadowrelm:
In all sincerity...shut up and fu[black][/black]ck off. No one cares about your hysterical rants. You're an idiot, and every grammatical nightmare you pass off as a post SCREAMS that fact. You have no clue what you're talking about, so just give it up.
Congratulations, you are well on your way to making your daughter as ignorant as you yourself are, because you can't possibly imagine that there is value to something which you, personally, don't understand.
I feel sorry for the poor child, to have such a moron for a father.
Edited, Thu May 11 18:40:26 2006 by Ambrya
In all sincerity...shut up and fu[black][/black]ck off. No one cares about your hysterical rants. You're an idiot, and every grammatical nightmare you pass off as a post SCREAMS that fact. You have no clue what you're talking about, so just give it up.
Congratulations, you are well on your way to making your daughter as ignorant as you yourself are, because you can't possibly imagine that there is value to something which you, personally, don't understand.
I feel sorry for the poor child, to have such a moron for a father.
Edited, Thu May 11 18:40:26 2006 by Ambrya
Jophiel wrote:
Youshutup the Vile wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure that'll work out great ten years down the line when you get a bunch of engineers whose bridge was built to "almost" exact specifications, or a nuclear technician who was "reasonably" sure the rays wouldn't make it through that lead wall.
Hehe, good point.
In my recent exams, in which I'm working with general relativity, numbers become extreme. I remember laughing at myself just last week when I noticed how small the speed of light is. In a vacuum, light moves at approximately 2.998 * 10^8 m/s, or about 299800000 meters per second. In one of the problems I worked on last, one term of the equation was v^2c^4. (v being the velocity of a hypothetical space craft, c being the speed of light in a vacuum). The space craft was moving with relatavistic velocity, in this case, on the magnitude of 10^8. This one term of my equation would spit back a number on the order of magnitude of 10^50, or about 100000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000000. Not even my favorite TI-86 calculator carries numbers to so much accuracy. After this, I had to use the quadratic equation, with x as v^2. I'm not even going to get into how high the numbers went in that calculation. And this was an easier problem.
Point being, in Engineering, things get extreme- quickly- and good estimation skills have saved me time and time again. I estimate at least ten times, generally around 20-30 times, per problem, consciously.. not even sure how many times I do it subconsciously.
So, to sum it up, estimation is a vital skill for heavy Math users.
Shadorelm = the next uni-bomber.
herd it heer furst
herd it heer furst
Professor CrescentFresh wrote:
shadowrelm wrote:
her homework? i told her to solve the problems for the CORRECT answer and write CORRECT estimate in place of overestimated or underestimated.
Get out your compass and draw a perfect circle. Measure the circumference and diameter of this circle. Divide circumference by diameter. What is the decimal value of your result? Don't post again until you have an exact CORRECT answer. Thanks.
The correct answer has a thing on it called the error bar. That's what determines how well we actually know what we measure. I imagine they would learn that in the more sciencey part of their education.
Point being, in Engineering, things get extreme- quickly- and good estimation skills have saved me time and time again. I estimate at least ten times, generally around 20-30 times, per problem, consciously.. not even sure how many times I do it subconsciously.
------------------------------------------------------------
yes, but it didnt save you time and time again, all it saved you was........time.
time you decided was more important that the actual correct numbers based on your openion of the importance of accuracy vs the TIME you were willing to spend to get as close as possible to the correct answer.
i GUARENTEE you that when the time comes to actually use this information with a real spacecraft, SOMEONE WILL have to solve those values for their correct answer not an estimated answer.
adn that someone wont be anyone who learned "estimation" or finding "reasonable" answers to questions in THIRD GRADE, a time when they should have been taught how to SOLVE problems for CORRECT solutions.
math is a science. there is only one answer to a given problem, or a series of corect answers depending on the problem. it is either the RIGHT answer, or it is WRONG no matter how close the WRONG answer is to the CORRECT answer.
there may be many ways to get the CORRECT answer, but estimating and finding a reasonable answer is NOT ONE OF THEM.
in third grade, they need to learn to solve for accuracy. and if they master that, which they wont for some years to come, then they need to learn differant ways to solve for accuracy.
AFTER that, then they can be taught to use estimation to speed it along depending on the importance of the solution.
and thats the whole point. the IMPORTANCE of the solution.
you teach a child estimation and finding reasonable answers at a time when not only have they not mastered solving basic math problems, but have not even started more complex solution formulas like geometry and algebra, you WILL end up teaching them that solving for soltions is not IMPORTANT.
you send them into high school with that attitude, adn i guarentee you math will not be theri best subject.
math is the foundation of every thing we have accomplished since leaving caves. you undermine that foundation by accepting "close" answers to spacific problems, you undermine our ability to advance as a society.
math IS that important. and an estimated answer, or a reasonable answer will always be.....THE WRONG ANSWER. teaching our kids how to come up with the WRONG answer at a time when they have barley scratched the surface of math itself is, IMO, the WRONG solution to solving our **** POOR math skills in students in this country or any other.
the only thing it will accomplish is bumping up the stats on a multiple guess test.
wouldnt it be funny if there were no answers to choose from? just a blank to fil in?
how well do you think these children would fare on that type of test after spending the time they should have been learning to solve basic math problems on estimation" or finding "reasonable' solutions?
next time you do someting like have a house built, try ordering a "reasonable" amount of concrete, or "estimation" how thick the wiring should be. infact, next time you buy dinner at resturaunt, ask for a "reasonable" amount of change back.
------------------------------------------------------------
yes, but it didnt save you time and time again, all it saved you was........time.
time you decided was more important that the actual correct numbers based on your openion of the importance of accuracy vs the TIME you were willing to spend to get as close as possible to the correct answer.
i GUARENTEE you that when the time comes to actually use this information with a real spacecraft, SOMEONE WILL have to solve those values for their correct answer not an estimated answer.
adn that someone wont be anyone who learned "estimation" or finding "reasonable" answers to questions in THIRD GRADE, a time when they should have been taught how to SOLVE problems for CORRECT solutions.
math is a science. there is only one answer to a given problem, or a series of corect answers depending on the problem. it is either the RIGHT answer, or it is WRONG no matter how close the WRONG answer is to the CORRECT answer.
there may be many ways to get the CORRECT answer, but estimating and finding a reasonable answer is NOT ONE OF THEM.
in third grade, they need to learn to solve for accuracy. and if they master that, which they wont for some years to come, then they need to learn differant ways to solve for accuracy.
AFTER that, then they can be taught to use estimation to speed it along depending on the importance of the solution.
and thats the whole point. the IMPORTANCE of the solution.
you teach a child estimation and finding reasonable answers at a time when not only have they not mastered solving basic math problems, but have not even started more complex solution formulas like geometry and algebra, you WILL end up teaching them that solving for soltions is not IMPORTANT.
you send them into high school with that attitude, adn i guarentee you math will not be theri best subject.
math is the foundation of every thing we have accomplished since leaving caves. you undermine that foundation by accepting "close" answers to spacific problems, you undermine our ability to advance as a society.
math IS that important. and an estimated answer, or a reasonable answer will always be.....THE WRONG ANSWER. teaching our kids how to come up with the WRONG answer at a time when they have barley scratched the surface of math itself is, IMO, the WRONG solution to solving our **** POOR math skills in students in this country or any other.
the only thing it will accomplish is bumping up the stats on a multiple guess test.
wouldnt it be funny if there were no answers to choose from? just a blank to fil in?
how well do you think these children would fare on that type of test after spending the time they should have been learning to solve basic math problems on estimation" or finding "reasonable' solutions?
next time you do someting like have a house built, try ordering a "reasonable" amount of concrete, or "estimation" how thick the wiring should be. infact, next time you buy dinner at resturaunt, ask for a "reasonable" amount of change back.
shadowrelm wrote:
next time you do someting like have a house built, try ordering a "reasonable" amount of concrete, or "estimation" how thick the wiring should be.
If you think that someone is actually saying "We need 933 pieces of tile -- no more and no less!" then you're stupider than I thought. You use the drawings and plans to estimate how much material you need and then, as you reach completion of that stage, you see if you'll need to order more material before you're done. Particularly since most stuff comes per pallet or coil or bag or some other unit of measurement that will go over your precious "exact" number.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
And I thought Niobia was bad...
Some people are like slinkies, they aren't really good for anything, but they still bring a smile to your face when you push them down the stairs.
Jophiel wrote:
Youshutup the Vile wrote:
Yeah, I'm sure that'll work out great ten years down the line when you get a bunch of engineers whose bridge was built to "almost" exact specifications, or a nuclear technician who was "reasonably" sure the rays wouldn't make it through that lead wall.
Oak Ridge is in TN. We're all screwed.
shadowrelm wrote:
A moronic rant about math x2
My pity goes to your daughter. I suppose when she's being told to solve for the error in a calculation you'll tell her that's wrong too, neh? ********
ChanXxxXXxXXXXXXXi wrote:
stuff
You're kidding, right? How do you think materials are ordered?
---------------------------------------------------
i dont think, i know how.
tile - EXACT quare feet, plus 10 percent more for waste. not a "reasonable" amount, the actual square feet of flooring isnt "overestimated" or "underestimated" then some more tossed in for good measure. it is measured ACCURATLY, then an additional percentage is added for waste with cutting or broken tiles.
roofs - square feet divided by whatever building code requirments there are for the spacing of trusses, with a fixed additional amount added for waste, adn what ever buttress you decided to go with. not a "reasonable" amount, not "over or underestimated" but an ACCURATE amount with a waste factor added in.
same with the concrete foundation. square feet x thickness = cubic yards of material with a small waste factor for uneven ground, holes, spillage and whatnot.
they dont measure, then round the numbers up or down to something easy to solve in your head, then "estimate" what you actually need and order a "reasonable" amount. they SOLVE the equation ACCURATLY and add a FIXED amount for waste.
the ONLY purpose "estimating" and "reasonable" has in mathimatics is to reduce time at the COST of ACCURACY. and accuracy is not necessary when the CORRECT answer is one of four given to you. you dont need to be ACCURATE, you just have to beable to find something CLOSE to the CORRECT answer.
math is a science, not an art.
just like religion is a phylosophy, not a science.
we sould not be teaching our kids to find the fast "close" answer, we should be teaching them to find the CORRECT answer. adn when they get older, let them decide for themselves weather any particular problem is important enough to solve CORRECTLY or weather a "resonable" solution is prefered to save TIME.
reasoanble and estimating belong in an arts class, not a math class. math is one of the few absolutes in this world. adn to distort it in the minds of children is unconsionable IMO. the world will distort it for them, just like it does with right and wrong becomming shades of grey. without a solid foundation of absolutes, like math, integrity is lost, in EVERYTHING from building houses, to launching rockets, to teaching our kids to find FAST soltuons to problems instead of CORRECT solutions.
math is as black adn white as it comes. it is right or it is wrong. there is no inbetween.
guestimating for a "reasonable" solution is the WRONG answer no matter how you spinn it politically.
and hopefuly, whoever replaces the IDIOT in charge of this country will understand about right and wrong and the worrd "integrity" and toss this self destructive "no kid left behind" program out the door with the outgoing addministration.
no kid left behind = we will turn them ALL into idiots, not just a select few.
---------------------------------------------------
i dont think, i know how.
tile - EXACT quare feet, plus 10 percent more for waste. not a "reasonable" amount, the actual square feet of flooring isnt "overestimated" or "underestimated" then some more tossed in for good measure. it is measured ACCURATLY, then an additional percentage is added for waste with cutting or broken tiles.
roofs - square feet divided by whatever building code requirments there are for the spacing of trusses, with a fixed additional amount added for waste, adn what ever buttress you decided to go with. not a "reasonable" amount, not "over or underestimated" but an ACCURATE amount with a waste factor added in.
same with the concrete foundation. square feet x thickness = cubic yards of material with a small waste factor for uneven ground, holes, spillage and whatnot.
they dont measure, then round the numbers up or down to something easy to solve in your head, then "estimate" what you actually need and order a "reasonable" amount. they SOLVE the equation ACCURATLY and add a FIXED amount for waste.
the ONLY purpose "estimating" and "reasonable" has in mathimatics is to reduce time at the COST of ACCURACY. and accuracy is not necessary when the CORRECT answer is one of four given to you. you dont need to be ACCURATE, you just have to beable to find something CLOSE to the CORRECT answer.
math is a science, not an art.
just like religion is a phylosophy, not a science.
we sould not be teaching our kids to find the fast "close" answer, we should be teaching them to find the CORRECT answer. adn when they get older, let them decide for themselves weather any particular problem is important enough to solve CORRECTLY or weather a "resonable" solution is prefered to save TIME.
reasoanble and estimating belong in an arts class, not a math class. math is one of the few absolutes in this world. adn to distort it in the minds of children is unconsionable IMO. the world will distort it for them, just like it does with right and wrong becomming shades of grey. without a solid foundation of absolutes, like math, integrity is lost, in EVERYTHING from building houses, to launching rockets, to teaching our kids to find FAST soltuons to problems instead of CORRECT solutions.
math is as black adn white as it comes. it is right or it is wrong. there is no inbetween.
guestimating for a "reasonable" solution is the WRONG answer no matter how you spinn it politically.
and hopefuly, whoever replaces the IDIOT in charge of this country will understand about right and wrong and the worrd "integrity" and toss this self destructive "no kid left behind" program out the door with the outgoing addministration.
no kid left behind = we will turn them ALL into idiots, not just a select few.
shadowrelm wrote:
i dont think, i know how.
Belkira wrote:
Wow. Regular ol' Joph fan club in here.
Jophiel wrote:
shadowrelm wrote:
i dont think, i know how.
Elderon the Wise wrote:
ChanXxxXXxXXXXXXXi wrote:
stuff
Boredom :( And I left my permission slip at home >.<
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